While the problems of the MM Ogre Mage as a viable monster have been hashed out elsewhere, I have an Ogre Mage PC (as per Savage Species) in one of my groups and he's actually been working out very well well ... until now. So far, he's pulled his weight effectively as a "utility player" using his magical "tricks," fair fighting ability (with a reach weapon) and, more recently, his flight speed (which, at level 4, might have arrived one or two levels too early as an 'always on' ability.) But now, charm Person and Sleep don't pack the punch they used to, he's only got 3d8 hit points at level 6 (with all the skill points that entails), and all gaseous form, darkness, and invisibility seem to accomplish is to bail him out of danger. He's actually still an effective variant meat shield - he doesn't last as long as a proper bruiser and packs much less of a fight - but can usually get away and come back for the next fight regenerated. We like the character, and the monster class in general, but everyone in the group agrees the guy needs a boost.
Options currently on the table:
1) Give him a neat magic item beyond normal treasure distribution. I tend to keep the number of items low, so this could make a difference. (Any suggestions?)
2) Consolidate his next two levels into one, which will give him some stat boosts, spell resistance, polymorph self and an all-important Hit Die. (Which seems like a lot for a regenerator.)
3) Let him pick up a class level in something before going back to racial levels. This would give him some specialization in something, depending on what he picked.
4) Upgrade the Sleep and Charm powers to something like Deep Slumber and Charm Monster.
5) Take suggestions from the Paizo board.
Thanks for any help or insight!
While the easiest thing to do is give him a magic item, it's hard to say without seeing what's the biggest issue he's having - is it merely hit points, or is it he's lacking things that are useful/effective to do in combat? What level is he at now? I try to solve things within the game as opposed to changing the game - but short of a magic item or cool symbiont, you'll have to change something. You could come up with a racial paragon level, bloodline level, or maybe let him take a planar or other substitution level in between, but I'd avoid letting him take a core class level in between.
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That's the most common problem we've had with the monster-levels in Savage Species: delaying the hit points. Now, as you point out, the Ogre Mage regenerates, so the issue here is that he still has plenty of hit points per day, just a sharp limit per encounter.
(And again, as you point out, hp per encounter isn't as much an issue for somebody with such a large bag of escape tricks.)
So, he's just not packing as much punch as you'd like?
As a general rule, how about giving monster-class PC's feats by level, rather than by hit dice? Since the party just hit 6th level, and he's cruising at 3 HD, that would give him another feat. And if he took something like Extra Spell-like Ability on his cone of cold, he's have a little more punch.
Other than that, your suggestion of letting monster-class PC's take, say, one class level every two race levels seems reasonable.
He's at 6th level now, approaching 7th (which is why the level-based options are possible).
Interesting split on the class level add. Could either of you explain why/ why not you think it might work? Part of the solution is that we as a group will probably have to pin down exactly what the ogre mage should be doing. Being the multi-function, tricky guy is great, but the Ogre Mage can't really play that game with the same low-level tricks (well, the getaway stuff actually stays pretty useful across the board). His skill points are deficient, his attack bonus and hit points are low, and he can't heal others, buff or call down the magical artillery (though, in a few levels, he'll pick up one cone of cold per day, which will give him a useful trick again.) He's in little danger of dying (regenerating, gaseous, invisible, darkness-tosser that he is), but in retrospect it seems the character concept wasn't sustainable past level 5 or so, and the monster class sotra straight-jackets his advancement. In that light, gearing him up a bit for whatever role he's looking to fill might be the best idea, be that with an item or a class level. One problem with the latter might be that the group has some Lenses of Minute Seeing, and if the OM picks up a level of something with Trapfinding, they'd probably hand them over to the flying, invisible, gaseous, regenerating new scout...
Considering his current powers, getting him paired up with a bow built for strength seems good. I don't know if he'd be happy being a roguish type character, but those abilities seem to make him a natural to get into a spot where he can really do the most damage and get out of there. It's still early (well, midlevel) so there's time for a few key items and feats to really build on that. I personally don't like the idea of mixing in core class levels because that's the hook of being a monster class. If you made a planar, paragon, or bloodline level group for him, it could fit in without disrupting that much. They aren't instant fixes, but could add some things to build on. (Also watch, he may qualify for a prestige class pretty immediately after he finishes his monster levels.) A lot depends on where the player wants this character to go, and what he wants him to be.
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Interesting split on the class level add. Could either of you explain why/ why not you think it might work?
If I understand correctly, the reason Wizards required characters to complete their monster-class levels before taking anything else, was to prevent people from splashing a couple of levels of, say, ghaele eladrin into a character, and then never completing the racial levels.
Requiring two racial levels per core class level keeps to this spirit, emphasizing the theme of maturing the monster-levels, but also allows a character to develop some employable skills (and hit points) along the way.
Part of the solution is that we as a group will probably have to pin down exactly what the ogre mage should be doing.... In that light, gearing him up a bit for whatever role he's looking to fill might be the best idea, be that with an item or a class level. One problem with the latter might be that the group has some Lenses of Minute Seeing, and if the OM picks up a level of something with Trapfinding, they'd probably hand them over to the flying, invisible, gaseous, regenerating new scout...
I was thinking something like that, myself. The Ogre Mage makes a pretty good support-fighter / lookout. Throw in a level of rogue or scout, and those abilities would complement the character's functionality. The only hang-up I could see is a role-playing one: ogre mages are stereotypically arrogant, powerful boss-types. It would be interesting to see that personality in a sneaky scouty type.
The only hang-up I could see is a role-playing one: ogre mages are stereotypically arrogant, powerful boss-types. It would be interesting to see that personality in a sneaky scouty type.
This character is against type in that respect. He is no paragon of his race ;), and he'd actually work out well as a scout-y character, personality wise (it's a short walk there from trickster). Mechanically, though, he's got skill deficiency and some other issues that keep this off the table without at least one class level.
It would be easier to 'bruiser' him up a bit (with a decent pole arm) and shine up the "hit" part of "hit and run." He's got some strength boosts coming in the future, which should help. An eggshell with a hammer ain't so bad when the hammer's really big and the eggshell regenerates... The archery suggestion isn't bad, either. Ramping up his missle weapon would give the group a flying missle platform, which can't be bad.
Mid-levels is where tactics really start to become an issue. For the ogre mage PC, he should be emphasizing his strengths: mobility and reach. Trip attacks (which will not draw an AoO if out of the target's reach) are a great option for him. Using a bow while flying is another great choice. Flying invisibly to scout is also a strength. If you want to provide him a nice magic item, something that will summon creatures (to give him something to use his reach while keeping opponents from getting close) is a great choice (see Bracelet of Summoning in the Low-Powered Magic Items thread).
I would almost say just have the PC tough it out. I have a player playing a Minotaur in my STAP game and at times he seemed behind the curve of say the Fighter/Cleric but that kind of comes and goes. The thing about the monstet classes is that you really need to use the monsters few racial benefits. The others in the thread have already givin suggestions on how to do this. I know the minotaur started to really outshine the other PCs when he got character levels so I would be careful about peppering in class level inbetween monster levels. Granted without seeing the Ogre Mage in action I don't know how it compares to a minotaur.
I'm with Chris P here. I had this come up and a character seemed really low power, especially on hit points at low levels. I caved and gave some bonuses to the player only to find that the character got really overpowered a few levels later. The hit point problem in particular gets a little less problematic as the game goes on. Only having 3 HD when the rest of the party has 6 HD is a big deal but its not as big an issue if player A has 6 HD with the rest of the party having 9 HD and this issue is getting less with each passing level - especially if the 'monster' class has some good stat bonuses, especially constitution.
So I suggest you stick it out for another three levels and make them prove that the character really is sub par as opposed to caving too quickly and regretting it later.
Thanks for all the suggestions. While the minotaur has a lot less going on than the Ogre Mage in terms of oddity, thanks for chiming in. Anyone with experience with Savage Species characters, feel free to let me know what and how it is working out. Taking everyone's point of view into consideration, I think I'm probably just going to give him a nifty item to play with. That way, if he starts to tip back toward parity (or more-than-parity) I can always have the item taken away or replaced. (I don't like to brag, but I'm quite good at doing that without it looking like a mechanical fix.) At "normal monster" level, I think he'll still be slightly deficient, but in this group, we're usually looking for "functional" rather than "optimal" anyhow, and so long as the character remains fun to play (and his personality and odd mix of abilities make it so), nobody's super worried about it.