Flight and the Tumble Skill

[Hsnopi]

So I am running a game. I ran accross this. A monk had flight cast on him. He flew up and attacked this lizard on the wall. The lizard was going to beat him so he wanted to move after attacking without taking attacks of opportunity. A full withdrawl was not an option for him. He asked if he could use his tumble skill (rank 12) and tumble out of the way.

I said no as he was flying. He said yes. I said I was the gm and tumble does not give you perfect fly. Later he argued that he could have rolled about his center of mass or soemthing. Imho even if he did this he would still be in one place moving at whatever the fly speed is along a path. I don't even think fly would give you the ability to do that. What would you use as momentum to make you able to roll about? the fly only gives you fly speed not maneuverability.

Anyway, I am always open to opinions so what do you think? Should you be able to tumble in that situation?

[Larry Lichman]

The monk already moved and attacked, so Tumble could not be used in that situation.

The Fly By feat is a feat that would allow him to perform the maneuver you describe, and as a DM, I probably would have allowed the maneuver if he had the Spring Attack feat. Otherwise, I think you made the correct call.

[Ross Byers]

The Fly spell must give you some sort of bodily control: Otherwise fighter-tyes would have a hard time bringing axes and such to bear. Tumble checks makes sense while flying, anyway. It's just more about actually dodging blows by twisting in unpredicable manners than it is about sumersaults and handsprings.

[Larry Lichman]

Ross Byers wrote:

The Fly spell must give you some sort of bodily control: Otherwise fighter-tyes would have a hard time bringing axes and such to bear. Tumble checks makes sense while flying, anyway. It's just more about actually dodging blows by twisting in unpredicable manners than it is about sumersaults and handsprings.

I agree that Tumble is a viable option if you're flying as a general rule. Just not in the situation as described, as the Monk had already used his Move Action and Standard Action that round.

[Cintra Bristol]

Flyby Attack doesn't let you avoid the attack of opportunity, it just lets you attack in the middle of your movement.

Our group has allowed Tumbling as part of flight, as with the Fly spell. You move at half speed while tumbling, but there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to perform acrobatics as part of that move. (You can't tumble as part of a charge, or any other movement that requires straight-line movement.) Since the Fly spell allows you to Hover, we felt that "jinking about" (aka Tumbling) was permissible.

I actually assumed from the OP that the Monk was trying to do this on his next round's actions, not the same one in which he approached the bad guy. (In other words, that we're responding to the legality of Tumble-while-Flying, not of the player's move sequence.)

[midnight756]

Larry Lichman wrote:

The monk already moved and attacked, so Tumble could not be used in that situation.

The Fly By feat is a feat that would allow him to perform the maneuver you describe, and as a DM, I probably would have allowed the maneuver if he had the Spring Attack feat. Otherwise, I think you made the correct call.

Spoiler:

TUMBLE (DEX; TRAINED ONLY;
ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
You can dive, roll, somersault, flip, and so on. You can’t use this skill
if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot
(see Table 9–2: Carrying Loads, page 162).
Check: You can land softly when you fall or tumble past
opponents. You can also tumble to entertain an audience (as though
using the Perform skill). The DCs for various tasks involving the
Tumble skill are given on the table below.
Tumble DC Task
15 Treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter than it really
is when determining damage.
15 Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal
movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity
while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks
of opportunity normally. Check separately for each
opponent you move past, in the order in which you
pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie).
Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the
Tumble DC.
25 Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied
by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent)
as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks
of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you
stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and
provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy.
Check separately for each opponent. Each additional
enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.
Obstructed or otherwise treacherous surfaces, such as natural cavern
floors or undergrowth, are tough to tumble through.

Accelerated Tumbling: You try to tumble past or through enemies
more quickly than normal. By accepting a –10 penalty on your
Tumble checks, you can move at your full speed instead of one-half
your speed.
Action: Not applicable. Tumbling is part of movement, so a
Tumble check is part of a move action.
Try Again: Usually no.

[Larry Lichman]

midnight756 wrote:

Larry Lichman wrote:

25 Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied

by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent)
as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks
of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you
stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and
provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy.
Check separately for each opponent. Each additional
enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.
Obstructed or otherwise treacherous surfaces, such as natural cavern
floors or undergrowth, are tough to tumble through.

Accelerated Tumbling: You try to tumble past or through enemies
more quickly than normal. By accepting a –10 penalty on your
Tumble checks, you can move at your full speed instead of one-half
your speed.
...

Thanks for the clarification. The Tumble skill allows you to tumble through an enemy's area without provoking an attack of opportunity, but does not allow you to move, attack, then move again as the OP describes. You need a feat for that.

[Saern]

I am not trying to flame anyone.

This is why I'm not a fan of including physics or references to real-world possibilities and limitations anymore than is absolutely necessary in D&D. The game fails as a reality simulation. The monk is already sailing through the air with the greatest of ease, and he does doesn't even have a flying trapese. What benefit was bestowed upon the game by denying the player the ability to Tumble?

The fly spell allows you to charge, attack, and gives you good maneuverability. It states that flying under its power takes no more concentration than walking. I fail to see anything anywhere in the spell description that would indicate Tumbling is somehow more difficult than any of these actions.

Certainly a DM has the right to make whatever call he wants, but the DM also has the responsibility to make those calls in a fair and logical manner. Simply imposing opinions and denying options because a mental image of what the player is talking about doesn't easily and fluently spring to mind doesn't qualify.

[midnight756]

straight from the rule book.

MOVEMENT
Each character has a speed measured in feet. You can move that
distance as a move action. You can take a move action before or after
a standard action on your turn in a round.
You can instead forego a standard action and take two move
actions in a round, which lets you move double your speed. Or you
can run, which lets you move quadruple your speed but takes all of
your actions for the round.

ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY
During combat, you threaten all squares adjacent to yours, even
when its not your turn. An opponent that takes certain actions
while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from
you. An attack of opportunity is a free melee attack that does not use
up any of your actions. You can make one attack of opportunity per
round. Actions that provoke attacks of opportunity include moving
(except as noted below), casting a spell, and attacking with a ranged
weapon.

You provoke an attack of opportunity when you move out of a
threatened square, except:

If you withdraw (a full-round action), opponents dont get attacks
of opportunity when you move from your initial square. If you
move into another threatened square, however, opponents get
attacks of opportunity when you leave that square.
If your entire move for the round is 5 feet (a 5-foot step), opponents
dont get attacks of opportunity when you move.

-------------------------------------------------------------

right there in print from the core rule book. Movement and Attack of opportunity. Im not trying to argue that impossible things can happen in d&d. Im simply stating that according to the rules- the monk moved to the creature attempted to attack then wanted to roll back out of its threat range without suffering attacks of opportunity. Yes a character can tumble with the fly spell because it is simple to concentrate while flying but a character cannot take 2 move actions and tumble says that it is considered a move action.

[Sir_Wulf]

Aside of the move-attack-move again sequence, which would require spring attack or a related feat, the Tumble skill description suggests that it can be used while falling, so it is not limited to ground movement. Tumbling to avoid Attacks of Opportunity refers to "normal movement", but the fly spell provides a fly speed, so flying is considered normal movement for the spell's subject.

Tumbling can describe a variety of evasive maneuvers. As an example, a tumbling centaur might be careening off of walls, leaping and wildly bucking in order to deny a clear shot to threatening foes. A tumbling dwarven warrior may "tuck and roll", while a tumbling elven monk may leap up to catch the rafters, swinging over his foes' heads.

[Chris P]

Sir_Wulf wrote:

Aside of the move-attack-move again sequence, which would require spring attack or a related feat, the Tumble skill description suggests that it can be used while falling, so it is not limited to ground movement. Tumbling to avoid Attacks of Opportunity refers to "normal movement", but the fly spell provides a fly speed, so flying is considered normal movement for the spell's subject.

My only thing is that fly get another component that other movements don't: Maneuverability. I would probably say that you need either Perfect or Good maneuverability to do Tumbling. I thought Fly was average but I can't remember.

Granted that being said it doesn't seem like aloowing it in this situation would have hurt anything. I probably would have allowed it at the time, but it could go either way.

[Cato Novus]

I would have allowed it, had the character still had the ability to move after his attack. However, from how you have stated the situation, it seems as if he had already performed his move action for the round.

[Hsnopi]

Wow, that was a lot of good responses fast.

I suppose I was overdetailed. I was curious as to the possiblility of "tumbling" while flying under the effect fo a fly spell.

srd wrote:

The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good. Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.

Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field.

Arcane Focus
A wing feather from any bird.

and the tumble skill

[quote = srd]
You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.

Check
You can land softly when you fall or tumble past opponents. You can also tumble to entertain an audience (as though using the Perform skill). The DCs for various tasks involving the Tumble skill are given on the table below.

Tumble DC Task
15 Treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter than it really is when determining damage.
15 Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.
25 Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy. Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

Obstructed or otherwise treacherous surfaces, such as natural cavern floors or undergrowth, are tough to tumble through. The DC for any Tumble check made to tumble into such a square is modified as indicated below.

Surface Is… DC Modifier
Tumbling is impossible in a deep bog.

Lightly obstructed (scree, light rubble, shallow bog1, undergrowth) +2
Severely obstructed (natural cavern floor, dense rubble, dense undergrowth) +5
Lightly slippery (wet floor) +2
Severely slippery (ice sheet) +5
Sloped or angled +2

Accelerated Tumbling
You try to tumble past or through enemies more quickly than normal. By accepting a -10 penalty on your Tumble checks, you can move at your full speed instead of one-half your speed.

See also: epic usages of Tumble.

Action
Not applicable. Tumbling is part of movement, so a Tumble check is part of a move action.

Try Again
Usually no. An audience, once it has judged a tumbler as an uninteresting performer, is not receptive to repeat performances.

You can try to reduce damage from a fall as an instant reaction only once per fall.

Special
If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC.

If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when executing the total defense standard action instead of the usual +4 dodge bonus to AC.

If you have the Acrobatic feat, you get a +2 bonus on Tumble checks.

Synergy
If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you get a +2 bonus on Balance and Jump checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Jump, you get a +2 bonus on Tumble checks.

I note you can't tumble in a deep bog.

As to the monk if he was using his slow fall, that is a special ability, but you can reduce 10 feet off a fall without that ability just using tumbling. All the situations described suggest some contact wiht the ground for pushing and rolling and such.

The epic version lets you ignore falling damage. You can't run but you can charge which is straight line. The concentration is metnioned to indicate you don;t need to keep concentrating on it. It lists ascent and descent at half speed. The best I woudl image you can do it wiggle your body about. but it does make flying a natural movement.

I am still inclined to say no but you all have given me a lot of food for thought.

[Hsnopi]

AH ok here it is.

Under the fly movement part. you can only turn up to 90 degrees in any 5 foot space with good flight. With perfect you could tumble.

So that settles that in my opinion.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm

for the chart.

[Jeremy Mac Donald]

Hsnopi wrote:

AH ok here it is.

Under the fly movement part. you can only turn up to 90 degrees in any 5 foot space with good flight. With perfect you could tumble.

So that settles that in my opinion.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm

for the chart.

I'd still think that one can tumble to any space they could legally move to. Obviously tumbling does not allow one to move in ways that are not legal for a flyer but so long as the flyer is moving to a space thats legally allowed I can't see how one would restrict tumbling based on the fact that one is otherwise flying.

The fact that their is ground blocking movement in one direction does not make ground based tumblers better - it actually makes them worse. I'd probably not add it but there is a reasonable argument for giving someone a +2 circumstance bonus to tumbling just because their flying and its easier to dodge around if your not restricted by the ground blocking one direction and fact that a terrestrial tumbler has to try and land correctly and keep moving.

Some one might be good at doing handsprings but one is still restricted - your hands must hit the ground in a hand spring, and your vulnerable to someone striking where your hands must be to protect your head from smacking into the ground. A flyer does not face these restrictions - physics and gravity don't force them to move in certain ways as much and allows them to dodge in three dimensions in a way that a ground based tumbler just can't compete with.

If you need a real world comparison watch sparrows, their probably good flyers in D&D terms (hummingbirds are perfect). Their phenomenally maneuverable and, while momentum and such force them to go in certain directions they can veer all over the place while doing so - hence something like a +8 racial bonus to tumbling for a sparrow makes sense.

Your right that the rules in tumble presume that your touching the ground but nothing explicitly excludes flyers. Its a bit of a grey area in the rules but in general one can do whatever they can do on the ground while flying unless the flying rules say otherwise. If one simply uses the fact that the rules seem to assume that one is on the ground to to exclude actions then it stands to reason that your not allowed to swing a sword while flying, after all the combat rules presume your on the ground.

Now I'll concede that the DM is perfectly within his rights to make judgment calls outlawing something like tumbling if the situation just seems impossible. I'd probably not allow a big Dragon to Tumble in flight - their clumsy flyers and being clumsy pretty much precludes being able to tumble but a good flyer? That ability to turn on a dime 90 degrees inside a square is really very adept at flying. There really is no reason I can think of to say that a creature that is exceptionally maneuverable in the air is some how incapable of dodging when they have 3 dimensions to work with. Insisting that one must have the ability to fly backward before you can tumble seems excessive.

[Snorter]

Hsnopi wrote:

AH ok here it is.

Under the fly movement part. you can only turn up to 90 degrees in any 5 foot space with good flight. With perfect you could tumble.

So that settles that in my opinion.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm

for the chart.

That's pretty much how we rule it; if you were fighting a giant hummingbird or something, it could 'tumble' in mid-air, but otherwise we have ruled it out (edit; didn't see your post, Jeremy. Seems we think alike!).

I view my fly spell as a form of telekinesis, which doesn't require concentration, but isn't fast enough to perform sudden dodges.

My friend Matt has a custom cleric spell ('Wings of the Celestial') which is less powerful; it's caster only, an obvious pair of force wings sprout from his back, the speed is less (50'?), and the maneuverability is only average, so he can't hover, and has to flap or fall. It's good for crossing chasms, reaching ledges, sailing over goons and making straight charges. I've also yet to see what happens on a successful dispel (ie does he float down, like me or plummet?).

One thing we do allow is to mix and match flying and walking (proportionally) within the same move action.
(Not every DM allows this, which can be quite exasperating).
So with speeds of 60' fly and 30' walk, you can use a single move action to combine them as;
60' fly
50' fly & 5' walk
40' fly & 10' walk
30' fly & 15' walk
20' fly & 20' walk
10' fly & 25' walk
30' walk

Why would you want to do this?
Well, so an average (or worse) flyer could hop over a pit (straight line movement) and then use their feet to duck, sideways into a passage, or
So a flyer could approach an enemy, and close the last few feet running along the ground (which would allow a tumble attempt), then make a single attack.
This seems a good compromise, but it does reduce your effective charge range, and only applies to foes on (or within reach of) the ground.

[Salama]

I have to agree that you can use tumble while flying. It says in phb that you can tumble as a part of normal movement. Flying is normal movement when you have fly speed. I think it's that simple. According to RAW fly maneuverability doesn't affect the use of tumble skill in any way. Of course you can make house rules if you think that's not good way to go in your games...

[Jeremy Mac Donald]

Snorter wrote:

(edit; didn't see your post, Jeremy. Seems we think alike!).

actually we are in disagreement.

[Vegepygmy]

Salama wrote:

It says in phb that you can tumble as a part of normal movement. Flying is normal movement when you have fly speed. I think it's that simple. According to RAW fly maneuverability doesn't affect the use of tumble skill in any way.

I agree.

[Hsnopi]

Personally I think it was an oversight. but...what is RAW?

[Sect]

Saern wrote:

Certainly a DM has the right to make whatever call he wants, but the DM also has the responsibility to make those calls in a fair and logical manner. Simply imposing opinions and denying options because a mental image of what the player is talking about doesn't easily and fluently spring to mind doesn't qualify.

Otherwise, it would mean that a centaur could not take ranks in tumble, or a fighter cannot tumble while wielding a polearm.

[Lilith]

Hsnopi wrote:

Personally I think it was an oversight. but...what is RAW?

Rules As Written.

[Snorter]

Snorter wrote:

(edit; didn't see your post, Jeremy. Seems we think alike!).

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

actually we are in disagreement.

I meant about both of us using the example of hummingbirds being able to tumble;

I see you allow any flyer of 'good' maneuverability to do the same, whereas our group does not. Our reason being that even good flight has limitations on the number of turns allowed, which we believe, would prevent a flyer from jinking around to the extent required to fool an opponent. It reads as if you hurl yourself at them and hope for the best...if you want to try anything more fancy than that, then you do a short 'hop', then roll along the ground the last few feet.

I've no idea if this is the intention of the RAW; it's just a decision we came up with after several minutes of fruitless search for a ruling. And it does have the advantage of levelling the playing field; we can't do it to them, but they can't do it to us!

[jocundthejolly]

Considering that the goal of the game is to have fun, I usually lean toward letting the player do something if I'm not sure and it won't unbalance the game. That way, the game doesn't get held up for half an hour, and the PCs don't get killed over a tough call. That isn't fun. I can review it later and make a decision for future situations. We're only talking about the occasional tough rules call here, so I'm not saying you should make things easy for the PCs, or let them do whatever they want. But there's a difference between PC destruction because of unwillingness to flee when overmatched, dumbness, bad decision-making, or failure to make a plan, and PC destruction because of rules uncertainty.

[JDinkum]

Sect wrote:

Otherwise, it would mean that a centaur could not take ranks in tumble, or

"Shun the unbeliever....SHUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNN!"

[Racinante Opus]

Sir_Wulf wrote:

Tumbling to avoid Attacks of Opportunity refers to "normal movement", but the fly spell provides a fly speed, so flying is considered normal movement for the spell's subject.

Actually, the fly spell does not grant a "fly speed", but does allow you to move through the air at a speed of 60'. Other spells actually grant movement modes including a climb speed, fly speed, or burrow speed, which is what is needed to qualify as a normal movement mode.

I would only allow tumbling if the flyer had a true normal flying movement mode with a fly speed. I would also probably restrict it to perfect maneuverability as tumbling is moving to avoid attacks, whether that is forward or back or making 90 degree turns in a single 5' space.