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Well Richard Baker has stated that half-orcs as a PC race will be in D&D Insider shortly after 4E is released. So much for it not being necessary to play the game. So, to play a half-orc I have to buy the core books and have a DDI subscription. Hey WotC, how much does it cost to play a gnome, or goblin? Once again, WotC's naked greed rears its ugly head.
You can not play the game with just the core books.
Only if your definition of "playing the game" demands half-orc PCs.
DISCLAIMER: I still don't intend to subscribe to DDI, and it is easily the part of 4e I find least compelling.
You can not play the game with just the core books.Only if your definition of "playing the game" demands half-orc PCs.
It does for many old gamers, especially if they want to continue using the old settings, like Greyhawk.
Stefan
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Or someone that has a 3.5 half-orc PC that they want to continue playing in 4.0. Let's face it. They are just making you pay more to use something that you should already have in hand after buying the PHB. Of course, you have to wait a while and pay even more money if you want to update your half-orc barbarian PC. If this isn't blatant, over the top greed, I don't know what is. If they didn't have room in the PHB or time to develop it, the half-orc PC race should be put in a free supplement online. They used to give this kind of stuff free all of the time. Now, you have to pay extra for it. This is extremely lame.
Much as I would LIKE to blame them for being greedy scum, I think this is a case of them trying to meet the demands of the public...
I'm sticking with greedy scum.
Nothing is stopping them from making half-orcs a free download -- except shameless, unbridled, unabashed, unrepentant greed.
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Much as I would LIKE to blame them for being greedy scum, I think this is a case of them trying to meet the demands of the public...I'm sticking with greedy scum.
Nothing is stopping them from making half-orcs a free download -- except shameless, unbridled, unabashed, unrepentant greed.
Hmmm...so, it's like X-Box Live, where I can purchase downloadable content to expand my game? HOLY CRAP! If I wanted to play video games, I'd turn on my 360 or my Wii.
Thanks, WotC, for doing us dirty.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Much as I would LIKE to blame them for being greedy scum, I think this is a case of them trying to meet the demands of the public...I'm sticking with greedy scum.
Nothing is stopping them from making half-orcs a free download -- except shameless, unbridled, unabashed, unrepentant greed.
Nothing stopped them from putting them in the MM I like gnomes.
I'm not expecting anything free, but still.
I don't mind so much being exploited by a company, but I get insulted when they don't (at least) pretend it's not shameless exploitation.
WotC continues to insult me.
In order for them to be doing this for greed, they would have to care about grognards in the first place. What makes you think they do?
Isn't it possible they ommitted half-orcs and gnomes because they don't like them as a core race, and not because they are holding it back to exploit them? But if a grognard is willing to pony up a couple of bucks to get the half-orc earlier than an 'advanced' splatbook release date, why wouldn't WotC supply what's in demand?
Wasnt it said that things that appear on the DDI wont be in books? If the DDI material appeared in a book later down the road why pay for the DDI?
It seems to me that Half-Orcs truly got shafted. They may be available on the DDI but may not even be in next year's PHB2 now.
Dragonborn in the first PHB and Half-Orcs as pay-per-view internet bonus content. It just seems so bass-ackwards to me.
WotC upsets me yet again. Surprise surprise.
Isn't it possible they ommitted half-orcs and gnomes because they don't like them as a core race, and not because they are holding it back to exploit them?
Nah...Half-Orcs and Gnomes are cool. Im going with exploitation. :)
OK, cool, WotC, keep grinding the stone, this is so neat I'm giddy! My wife and I are going to have so much extra money not falling for all this greedy poo I can't wait to see what we can do! Hawaii, new bathroom, London...wheee!
How can anyone spend that much money on WotC?
In our gaming group we have 15 people, but let's just say you have the core 4 plus DM.
That's 5 players. Even if you spent $30 a month on new books at WotC, that's only $72 per person per year. I would love to go on a nice vacation for that price.
Isn't it possible they ommitted half-orcs and gnomes because they don't like them as a core race, and not because they are holding it back to exploit them?Nah...Half-Orcs and Gnomes are cool. Im going with exploitation. :)
Every half-orc character I've ever met had only two words in their character background: "Hulk Smash!" And gnomes are on the opposite end of the spectrum; I've yet to see an effective gnome with the exception of a beguiler (maybe).
They are tradition only for tradition's sake. They have no redeeming qualities.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Isn't it possible they ommitted half-orcs and gnomes because they don't like them as a core race, and not because they are holding it back to exploit them?Nah...Half-Orcs and Gnomes are cool. Im going with exploitation. :)Every half-orc character I've ever met had only two words in their character background: "Hulk Smash!" And gnomes are on the opposite end of the spectrum; I've yet to see an effective gnome with the exception of a beguiler (maybe).
They are tradition only for tradition's sake. They have no redeeming qualities.
Hrmm, Every Takasi I've seen has been an arrogant prig. [/sarcasm]
Ok, now that that example of anecdotal evidence has been made :-) I know a lot of half orc concepts, not the least of which come from Eberron, that are more than hulk smash. I had a 1/2 orc monk who maxed out the social skills. He was hoping to bring peace and enlightenment to his benighted brethern.
They are tradition only for tradition's sake. They have no redeeming qualities.
Wow! O_o
Isn't it possible they ommitted half-orcs and gnomes because they don't like them as a core race, and not because they are holding it back to exploit them?
I think that's exactly what happened. I think there's been nothing sinister or exploitative in their elimination of half-orcs. In fact, I think it was a thoughtful, well-motivated decision -- it just backfired a bit.
But if a grognard is willing to pony up a couple of bucks to get the half-orc earlier than an 'advanced' splatbook release date, why wouldn't WotC supply what's in demand?
And therein lies my objection. It would cost them nothing to provide a free download to appease lots of angry customers. Instead, they use it as a tactic to pull those customers into D&D Insider. Not only is this a little sleazy, but it adds insult to injury (given the sensibilities of the customers we're talking about).
And just because grognards are willing doesn't make it OK. This is an example of rather shameless extortion.
I think they knew they wanted a couple new "cool" races for PCs to use. ( I wrote "cool" because that seems to be wizard's new favorite word.) And decided those 2 had to go. Then, they figured the "grognards" out there with some nostalgia wouldn't mind paying to get them back in their game. Thanks, but no thanks.
Every half-orc character I've ever met had only two words in their character background: "Hulk Smash!" And gnomes are on the opposite end of the spectrum; I've yet to see an effective gnome with the exception of a beguiler (maybe).
Your experience -- not mine, nor that of many others.
They are tradition only for tradition's sake. They have no redeeming qualities.
Stating this opinion in such a way might easily be construed as arrogant, dismissive, and contemptuous.
Just a thought.
Instead, they use it as a tactic to pull those customers into D&D Insider. Not only is this a little sleazy, but it adds insult to injury (given the sensibilities of the customers we're talking about).
Who knows, it might still be a freebie. In any event, even if it's on Insider I'm sure many players will get access to it even if they don't have a subscription. It's more 'showcasing' then exploitation; it's an example of supplying additional material electronically. It's a bonus that would not have been possible without online support.
And gnomes and half-orcs are the bottom of the barrel in 3.5 classes, IMO (in case you didn't get the IMO in my comments above, it should be implied). If I had to rate 3.5 races:
Human
Elf
Dwarf
Halfling
Half-Elves
Gnomes
Half-Orcs
I'm saddened they didn't cut half-elves. They just beg "Where are half-gnomes? Half-dwarves? Half-ogres? Dwarf-elves?" The list goes on and on. Human, Elf, Dwarf and Halfling. In my homebrew, no halflings either, just elves (forest dwellers), dwarves (miners) and humans.
And I'm not trying to exploit anyone. Those two races are horrible compared to humans, elves and dwarves, and I would have cut them too.
(Tieflings and dragonborn are equally lame, but that's another thread entirely...)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But if a grognard is willing to pony up a couple of bucks to get the half-orc earlier than an 'advanced' splatbook release date, why wouldn't WotC supply what's in demand?And therein lies my objection. It would cost them nothing to provide a free download to appease lots of angry customers. Instead, they use it as a tactic to pull those customers into D&D Insider. Not only is this a little sleazy, but it adds insult to injury (given the sensibilities of the customers we're talking about).
And just because grognards are willing doesn't make it OK. This is an example of rather shameless extortion.
Extortion is an awfully strong word. WotC is offering a product. You can purchase it or not. You can continue using the old version that you already own if you so choose. This isn't food, water, or your firstborn child they're withholding.
I do have sympathy for the feeling. I didn't buy CDs because the cost to value ratio was completely wrong for me (why spend $15 for 2 songs?) I don't have cable because I won't pay $50-75 for a dozen channels when I only consume maybe 5 hours of tv per week. I like that technology now allows me to buy music ala carte; I hope someday cable will be the same way, but it's really hard for me to say that it is inherently wrong to bundle products in this way or that I am being cheated.
Would it be a better PR move for WotC if they released those pieces of 3e that won't make it to 4e for free? Hell yeah. Has WotC demonstrated any willingness to employ good PR? Unfortunately not. Do you have a right to free content? Not really.
If you find that the phb's value is impaired below its cost due to the lack of the half-orc, I would recommend not purchasing it.
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But if a grognard is willing to pony up a couple of bucks to get the half-orc earlier than an 'advanced' splatbook release date, why wouldn't WotC supply what's in demand?And therein lies my objection. It would cost them nothing to provide a free download to appease lots of angry customers. Instead, they use it as a tactic to pull those customers into D&D Insider. Not only is this a little sleazy, but it adds insult to injury (given the sensibilities of the customers we're talking about).
And just because grognards are willing doesn't make it OK. This is an example of rather shameless extortion.
Extortion is an awfully strong word. WotC is offering a product. You can purchase it or not. You can continue using the old version that you already own if you so choose. This isn't food, water, or your firstborn child they're withholding.
I do have sympathy for the feeling. I didn't buy CDs because the cost to value ratio was completely wrong for me (why spend $15 for 2 songs?) I don't have cable because I won't pay $50-75 for a dozen channels when I only consume maybe 5 hours of tv per week. I like that technology now allows me to buy music ala carte; I hope someday cable will be the same way, but it's really hard for me to say that it is inherently wrong to bundle products in this way or that I am being cheated.
Would it be a better PR move for WotC if they released those pieces of 3e that won't make it to 4e for free? Hell yeah. Has WotC demonstrated any willingness to employ good PR? Unfortunately not. Do you have a right to free content? Not really.
If you find that the phb's value is impaired below its cost due to the lack of the half-orc, I would recommend not purchasing it.
Look at it this way. Let's say your cable company had a certain popular station that you enjoyed watching as part of its basic package which you paid for every month. Out of the blue, they remove it from their basic package, and charge an extra 10 bucks a month for it. You'd be pretty ticked. That's essentially what they are doing with the half-orc. This change alone isn't that disturbing, but when you add it up with all of their other bad PR and horrid 4E mechanics and fluff changes, it does tend to get to you.
Just to play devil's advocate (or is it demon's now?), what if Rich meant it would be "on the website," and DDI has just more or less become shorthand for that. In other words, what if the half-orc is a "freebie" on the website?
I'm not saying this is the case, I'm just saying that it was kind of a off the cuff comment. I'm not a fan of a lot of this stuff either, but I'd rather see people get upset over things that have actually happened then over perceived wrongs.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Look at it this way. Let's say your cable company had a certain popular station that you enjoyed watching as part of its basic package which you paid for every month. Out of the blue, they remove it from their basic package, and charge an extra 10 bucks a month for it. You'd be pretty ticked. That's essentially what they are doing with the half-orc. This change alone isn't that disturbing, but when you add it up with all of their other bad PR and horrid 4E mechanics and fluff changes, it does tend to get to you.
The cable company has done exactly that to me many many many times. Like I said, I don't take it personally - I just don't buy their product. I'm not sure why that's such a hard position to take. Would I like them much better if they offered me the channels I wanted at the price I wanted? Hell yeah. Is that the right business decision? *shrug* Are they making this decision just to get to me, Sebastian? I've got a big ego, but it's not that big.
Like I said, I sympthize with the emotion, I generally am not a fan of cable companies, but they aren't extorting me, they aren't punishing me, and they aren't trying to drive themselves out of business.
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I didn't say they were doing it to personally get at me, but something about leaving out basic elements of the game (possibly deliberately) to charge more for them later seems a bit sleezy. If i were you I wouldn't have taken that treatment from the cable company. They would be short one customer, just as WotC has been missing me as a customer since they cancelled the print magazines.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I didn't say they were doing it to personally get at me, but something about leaving out basic elements of the game (possibly deliberately) to charge more for them later seems a bit sleezy.
Well, some people probably get more value having the tiefling/dragonborn in instead of the gnome/half-orc. For them, it's a good deal. I don't particularly care if the half-orc is in the phb, so it's not a negative for me.
Heck, if you want to get right down to it, D&D has long been the biggest scam set up out of any rpg on the market. Up until the past few years, most other rpgs included all the core rules in one book. D&D has always required you to purchase 3 books. Maybe if they were putting the combat rules and magic rules in a 4th book, I'd have more sympathy to the position. Those are basic elements of the game. The half-orc has been a casualty in prior editions; it'd be a stretch to call him a basic element.
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Well Richard Baker has stated that half-orcs as a PC race will be in D&D Insider shortly after 4E is released. So much for it not being necessary to play the game. So, to play a half-orc I have to buy the core books and have a DDI subscription. Hey WotC, how much does it cost to play a gnome, or goblin? Once again, WotC's naked greed rears its ugly head.
Can you provide a source for this? I would like to read it in context.
...This is an example of rather shameless extortion.
Extortion is an awfully strong word.
They have angered a lot of fans with this move (inadvertently, I'll admit). Rather than smooth ruffled feathers and offer a free, effort-free download, they force them into subscribing to the DDI.
I'll stick with "extortion."
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Well Richard Baker has stated that half-orcs as a PC race will be in D&D Insider shortly after 4E is released. So much for it not being necessary to play the game. So, to play a half-orc I have to buy the core books and have a DDI subscription. Hey WotC, how much does it cost to play a gnome, or goblin? Once again, WotC's naked greed rears its ugly head.Can you provide a source for this? I would like to read it in context.
You can find it at Enworld on their 4th edition news page.
Right here, from the WOTC boards:
various stuff about half-orcs & DDI
Who knows, it might still be a freebie. In any event, even if it's on Insider I'm sure many players will get access to it even if they don't have a subscription. It's more 'showcasing' then exploitation; it's an example of supplying additional material electronically. It's a bonus that would not have been possible without online support.
I suspect good sense will prevail and they'll make it free. Until then, they're making the critics look right.
And they need to stop this 'showcasing' stuff. Online support from WotC is nothing new. Having to pay for it is -- hardly an improvement.
Ok. So they respond to consumer demands in the bet way possible at this time and the haters dump on them for it?Right here, from the WOTC boards:
A free download that doesn't require an optional DDI account would be nice... ;)
Ask the Realms Designers Thread
Interesting post. From it:
Oh, and regardless of what core D&D does with half-orcs, they've got to be in the Realms at least as a NPC race (or "playable monster" race); they've been in Faerun in 3e and earlier editions, and we wouldn't retcon them out of existence.
This seems a bit disingenuous. Aren't they having to retcon various elements of FR to make it 4/e compatible -- regardless of what earlier editions did?
I'm not an FR fan, and I may very well be off the mark. Correct me as necessary :)
A free download that doesn't require an optional DDI account would be nice... ;)
Nothing is free.
Interesting post. From it:
Oh, and regardless of what core D&D does with half-orcs, they've got to be in the Realms at least as a NPC race (or "playable monster" race); they've been in Faerun in 3e and earlier editions, and we wouldn't retcon them out of existence.This seems a bit disingenuous. Aren't they having to retcon various elements of FR to make it 4/e compatible -- regardless of what earlier editions did?
I'm not an FR fan, and I may very well be off the mark. Correct me as necessary :)
Rich has said they won't retcon anything (although it will be interesting to see how they explain monsters changing radically from what they were in previous editions, and all of the planar changes).
That having been said, Rich also said that Sehinine and Selune may have actually been the same goddess "all along," and that Talos and Grummsh "are both one eyed guys that like to destroy . . . coincidence?"
Which kind of sounds like a retcon to me.
No one knows how big a jump it will be, but they are destroying a bunch of gods and jumping the timeline ahead, having a massive event known as the Spellplague occur, and presumably this will explain why everything that is different is different.
If the prologue to the last RAS novel is any indication, the time jump is about 100 years, but no one at WOTC will confirm this one way or the other. The Grand History of the Realms jumped the timeline ahead about 10 years to the start of the Spellplague.
Half-orcs are not necessary to play D&D, or even necessary for a "traditional" feel to the game. They are not forcing you to pay-to-play, because in all honesty if you want a half-orc right out of the gate I'm sure plenty of players will make their own race mechanics for it. Not hard.
Its pretty stupid to assume that you had to purchase other books to get other content, but for some reason you get upset when they ask you to pay for other content. I myself am not a big fan of clerics, so why should I pay for a book that has clerics in it?
As for the gnomes? Well, they're in the game, so please find something else to whine about. I'm glad myself that they took the time to work on the gnome to make it different rather than include it "just 'cause" and end up with a Small-sized dwarf.
As for the tin-foil delusion that DDI is necessary to play the game, you have yet to show me any instance where Wizards is witholding even remotely crucial game mechanics that I otherwise could not game without. Half-orcs are not critical to the game.
As for Mac III's strange epiphany, yes, you get to pay money to get more stuff. That seems pretty commonsense to me. I didnt get angry when they made Magic of Eberron, claiming that those greedy jerks just want to wrangle more money out of me. I didnt need the book.
The only real issue that I can find in this sea of irrational hatred is for the players who happen to be running a half-orc AND were intending to play in 4th Edition in the first place (see, if you werent going to because you hate Wizards for whatever reason, then griping about it really doesnt count).
For them, I'm sure someone will crank out a quality 3rd-party stat block to use until an official one comes out, in which case I'm sure it'll make it onto the internet anyway.
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A free download that doesn't require an optional DDI account would be nice... ;)Ok. So they respond to consumer demands in the bet way possible at this time and the haters dump on them for it?Right here, from the WOTC boards:
I agree but as a company Wizards has chosen to make the DDI their official source of information.