Am I the only one just a tad bit worried when I see that no solid information has been released to the people at Paizo for 4ed?
Almost sounds like WOTC is about to make a big mistake that was made by their predecessor years ago if some of us recall...
Then again perhaps it's nothing...guess we shall see won't we?
I've heard some speculation (and I fear) that there will be no OGL for 4/e.
I'm afraid Hasbro/WotC has decided that a monopoly would be a good thing. Let's hope I'm wrong.
I think theres been a lot of confusion over the whole OGL issue. From everything I've seen, 4th Edition is going to be OGL. Whats going to get cut, it seems, is the specific licensing that lets you label your product as a D&D product.
Now, it is a bit troubling that they don't seem to have any kind of SRD available to third party publishers, but really it seems like they aren't even really done with the game itself yet. I'm pretty sure I read something over at EN World stating that the PHB won't be done until October.
Now, it is a bit troubling that they don't seem to have any kind of SRD available to third party publishers, but really it seems like they aren't even really done with the game itself yet. I'm pretty sure I read something over at EN World stating that the PHB won't be done until October.
If that is the case that they are indeed not "done" with the game yet then my fears are laid to rest...if not...well they just might not want it to be OGL.
I would think that OGL products would bite in the DI-world. It is pretty much inconcievable that DI will be able to include stuff from third-party publishers. And a great many of the changes seems like it is intended to distance itself with anything from 3e SRD. Pretty much guaranteeing that they are in complete control of 4e (as of now).
If a third-party publisher like GGames or Necromancer does make 4e stuff they can pretty much count on nobody who subscribes being able to use it in DI. Who wants to publish something that already a portion of the audience can't use or won't buy?
I would think that OGL products would bite in the DI-world. It is pretty much inconcievable that DI will be able to include stuff from third-party publishers. And a great many of the changes seems like it is intended to distance itself with anything from 3e SRD. Pretty much guaranteeing that they are in complete control of 4e (as of now).
If a third-party publisher like GGames or Necromancer does make 4e stuff they can pretty much count on nobody who subscribes being able to use it in DI. Who wants to publish something that already a portion of the audience can't use or won't buy?
That assumes that a majority of 4th edition players will subscribe to the DI. I seriously don't plan on it.
The best adventures for 3rd edition were all produced by 3rd party companies (Goodman Games - Dungeon Crawl Classics, Necromancer Games - Doom of Listonshire especially, and Paizo GameMastery modules and Dungeon Magazine)IMO. I imagine this will continue for 4th edition, especially since both Goodman and Necromancer have stated that they are definitely supporting 4th edition.
Why would I use an online setting to play when I can't use my best supplements and adventures (plus, I don't like online gaming)?
Ja! But everybody knows D&D4 is going to be new player friendly. That means a large portion of the audience isn't going to know who Goodman is or what GameMastery is about. They are going to buy the book and (WotC hopes) log on. This means DCC is going to already be unsold to new D&D players, or at least a portion. How big a portion? Depends on who you ask. I'm sure WotC would like to see a large majority of their fans to be in that portion subscribing. Third party publishers who make things that don't fit into DI would hope for a smaller, or at least a less discriminating section to be subscribed. We may all think that DI isn't going to fly high based on conclusions drawn amongst current fans. However the x-factor that is new players coming to D&D4 could reverse all our predictions.
DI is optional.
So are booster packs for M:tG. You know anyone who plays with the vanilla deck only? I don't. Out of the hundreds of MtG players not a one hasn't bought up about a dozen or a hundred booster packs.
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DI is optional.So are booster packs for M:tG. You know anyone who plays with the vanilla deck only? I don't. Out of the hundreds of MtG players not a one hasn't bought up about a dozen or a hundred booster packs.
DI is optional and the game will play just as well with it as without it. You don't need it to get 100% value from the published material. Its not like MtG.
Trust me. I worked in retail for eight years.
Nine times out of then, the additional value is a cleverly worded bit of advertising designed to separate people from their cash.
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Trust me. I worked in retail for eight years.
Nine times out of then, the additional value is a cleverly worded bit of advertising designed to separate people from their cash.
Of course it is. That is what businesses do - get people to give them money in exchange for stuff.
But DI is clearly not integral to the play of 4E.
But DI is clearly not integral to the play of 4E.
Yet...
OK, I'm probably overstating things, but the "enhancements" that are being advertized as part of the DI sound a lot like portions of the system that will become more and more important as time goes on (like the Complete books). The fact that I will require a subscription, instead of a one-time fee, to access the content in the DI annoys me.
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Yet...OK, I'm probably overstating things, but the "enhancements" that are being advertized as part of the DI sound a lot like portions of the system that will become more and more important as time goes on (like the Complete books).
That is a risk. We could wake one day to find that 5E is completely proprietary and require a subscription model to play.
I think the only way that will happen is if people buy into it. I don't see that happening. Not with the current vision for DI as articulated by Wizards.
The fact that I will require a subscription, instead of a one-time fee, to access the content in the DI annoys me.
Well, Dungeon and Dragon required subscription fees. As long as it costs money to create content it will require revenue to keep it coming.
Well, Dungeon and Dragon required subscription fees. As long as it costs money to create content it will require revenue to keep it coming.
Or you could go to your FLGS to buy an issue that interested you without the need to subscribe.
I don't see that happening until Dungeon and Dragon return to print format (which will never happen as long as Hasbro pulls the strings).
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DI is optional.
DI is optional and the game will play just as well with it as without it. You don't need it to get 100% value from the published material.
Wizards has repeatedly stated that DI is a value add and not an essential aspect of 4E.
And that's just from this page of this thread. Methinks he doth protest too much.
I tried out a free "mmorpg" a while ago - Dungeon Runners, I think it was called. You can play for free, and you can play forever for free. However, if you paid a small monthly fee, you had access to better weapons, better armour, etc. Yes, the game could be played for free (even the client download was free), but to actually get the whole game you had to pay. You also know this up front when you start playing.
Now Wizards... they have already shown that they are specifically holding back things that were "core" in 3e from the initial 4e core books to "publish" later. I think it's a fairly basic step of logic to think that they would just as easily hold things back to put into the DI. Otherwise where is the value?
The difference between Dungeon Runners and WotC is that Dungeon Runners specifically told you that there was some value to paying for their extra content. WotC is telling us (through crosswiredmind, it would seem), that DI is optional, and you don't need it to play the game with 100% value. Then why would anyone even need/want the DI content? It must have *some* value, or they couldn't justify charging for it... right? Can you get more than 100%?
I played Dungeon Runners for about an hour. Already there was gear and potion drops I couldn't pick up because I wasn't a paying player. Then I ran into the first level boss. He was extremely hard to beat. To the point where I died an annoying amount of times trying to get past him. All becaue I couldn't drink the healing potions.
M:tG is a 100% complete game with just the deck you buy first. Nothing stops you from forever using only those cards. However, I know of no player that hasn't purchased more cards. It just doesn't work out that way.
DI is just too cloudy. What happens if the player has a book the DM doesn't? Does the player get to use those books in the game? What if the DM has the PHB2 and 3. Does the player then get to use a class or feat there if he doesn't have the book? What if a module has monsters that are in a book (think MM2 or something) that nobody has. Can anybody play that module? You can with printed modules because the one-time stat block is right there. If my character has a familiar from the PHB3 or MM3 and the DM doesn't have that book does my familiar vanish?
Can you get more than 100%?
This is a quote:
The newest set of D&D miniatures, Desert of Desolation, provides a different kind of look at 4th Edition. First off, every creature in the set exists in 4th Edition D&D and almost all of them will appear in the first Monster Manual. (One monster receives special treatment and will get its first updated statistics on D&D Insider.)
100% + 1
Can you get more than 100%?The newest set of D&D miniatures, Desert of Desolation, provides a different kind of look at 4th Edition. First off, every creature in the set exists in 4th Edition D&D and almost all of them will appear in the first Monster Manual. (One monster receives special treatment and will get its first updated statistics on D&D Insider.)
100% + 1
The key word being 'first' i.e. it will have stats at a later date as well. Keep on spinning...
The key word being 'first' i.e. it will have stats at a later date as well. Keep on spinning...Can you get more than 100%?The newest set of D&D miniatures, Desert of Desolation, provides a different kind of look at 4th Edition. First off, every creature in the set exists in 4th Edition D&D and almost all of them will appear in the first Monster Manual. (One monster receives special treatment and will get its first updated statistics on D&D Insider.)
100% + 1
Appear where? In another book (MM2?). Which would include monsters represented in the second line-up of minis. A line-up that features monsters whose stats are on DI first and won't appear in print until the MM3 comes out. Spin cycle, spin. Round and round.
Edit: And though they don't come right out and say it, I have bought a car before. And since have learned when to ignore the salesman.
What lie did they tell? I still can't figure out why they are to be considered so untrustworthy.Anything to the contrary is purely speculation.And *now* is a good time to start believing them... why?
Many people on the Wizards' boards (from WotC) put out statements to the effect that D&D4 was years off, in the same year that it was later announced as impending.
P.S. What they actually said was "there are no plans for a fourth edition at this time."|
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Many people on the Wizards' boards (from WotC) put out statements to the effect that D&D4 was years off, in the same year that it was later announced as impending.
P.S. What they actually said was "there are no plans for a fourth edition at this time."
Chatter on a message board is not the same as a statement from the company itself.
Furthermore, the statement "there are no plans for a fourth edition at this time" is conditional. Obviously the plans changed.
Why is that a lie?
Many people on the Wizards' boards (from WotC) put out statements to the effect that D&D4 was years off, in the same year that it was later announced as impending.
P.S. What they actually said was "there are no plans for a fourth edition at this time."Chatter on a message board is not the same as a statement from the company itself.
Furthermore, the statement "there are no plans for a fourth edition at this time" is conditional. Obviously the plans changed.
Why is that a lie?
The chatter on the message board originated from statements ("There are no plans for fourth edition") by WotC employees. Not some fan predicting stuff.
Obviously the plans changed. The subject isn't about what they wanted to eat that night though. It was for the near future of an apparently well liked game.
Appear where? In another book (MM2?). Which would include monsters represented in the second line-up of minis. A line-up that features monsters whose stats are on DI first and won't appear in print until the MM3 comes out. Spin cycle, spin. Round and round.
Edit: And though they don't come right out and say it, I have bought a car before. And since have learned when to ignore the salesman.
So... just like 3E then? Why is releasing more books wrong? Are you upset that DI subscribers will get the stats first? But people are complaining that DI subs will cost so much for so little. If WOTC gave people $100, there'd be complaints about how the money was folded.
Before I get called an apologist, let me say I don't like some WOTC decisions going back a long time e.g. Rokugan in OA - didn't like it, didn't want it BUT I completely understand why they did it and was bitter for all of 5 minutes.
Guys, guys, guys, time. Discussing for the millionth time about whether or not WotC lied aobut 4E's release will get us nowhere, AGAIN. Shall we stick to the topic at hand ...
Am I the only one just a tad bit worried when I see that no solid information has been released to the people at Paizo for 4ed?
Almost sounds like WOTC is about to make a big mistake that was made by their predecessor years ago if some of us recall...
Then again perhaps it's nothing...guess we shall see won't we?
I agree with PirateCat from ENWorld. WotC's biggest concern is their own internal deadines and (as far as I can tell) they're not meeting them. That's not unusual when you have people rushed, working in group efforts and so on. They've been saying that they're going to have the SRD to the 3rd party companies for months now. Well, you know, s*** happens. Maybe they don't have it at their own quality level yet. Maybe some serious concerns came back from playtesting and they're doing their best to work them out as quickly as they can. These things happen. I'm sure Scott Rouse doesn't like coming on EnWorld and getting asked 1000 times where the SRD is. I"m sure he's worried about his own personal credability and how it makes him and the company look every time he says something like that.
I do think it is bad of them to leave 3rd party company hanging like this and will only serve to hurt them in the long run, but I do think they are doing the best job they can.
Appear where? In another book (MM2?). Which would include monsters represented in the second line-up of minis. A line-up that features monsters whose stats are on DI first and won't appear in print until the MM3 comes out. Spin cycle, spin. Round and round.
Edit: And though they don't come right out and say it, I have bought a car before. And since have learned when to ignore the salesman.So... just like 3E then? Why is releasing more books wrong? Are you upset that DI subscribers will get the stats first? But people are complaining that DI subs will cost so much for so little. If WOTC gave people $100, there'd be complaints about how the money was folded.
Before I get called an apologist, let me say I don't like some WOTC decisions going back a long time e.g. Rokugan in OA - didn't like it, didn't want it BUT I completely understand why they did it and was bitter for all of 5 minutes.
I'm not really bugged a bit by what goes on with DI or 4e. It's not my game. I'm not buying it in any form so loop-dee-doo what they do with it. I was only stating my thoughts about what goes on with "optional" stuff.
All my D&D3 books rely on my use of the core books. There is no "gotta catch 'em all" thing with any of them there where I'd need a fifth monster manual to use something else I bought out of the store. It looks to me like they are trying to make as many books as they can mandatory ,especially with the claim that it'll all be 'core'.And that word; 'apologist'. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Apologist - The term comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογί& ;#945;), meaning a speaking in defense.
It means exactly what I think it means, as it sometimes has a derogatory connotation, and can be used as an insult as much as a descriptive term. It was originally used in an academic or theological context but has now come ot be used of someone who uncategorically defends a person, position or idea, often to the point of denial.
(Prepares for barrage)
I do think it is bad of them to leave 3rd party company hanging like this and will only serve to hurt them in the long run, but I do think they are doing the best job they can.
I don't think you can sufficiently make that case to the bottom-liners that they need third party support. WotC has plenty enough 'Official-only' fans (plus the influx of new gamers they hope to bring in) to keep their boat afloat. At least, that is what they would be looking for.
Just in my own experience, I have read many posters (and met not a few gamers) who would not touch a third party book with a ten-foot pole even after taking twenty on the search check. There were quite a few threads on the wizard boards along the lines of "What other D&D books do you use besides WotC" where a bunch of posters said they use nothing but official smicial stuff.
Apologist - The term comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογί& ;#945;), meaning a speaking in defense.
It means exactly what I think it means, as it sometimes has a derogatory connotation, and can be used as an insult as much as a descriptive term. It was originally used in an academic or theological context but has now come ot be used of someone who uncategorically defends a person, position or idea, often to the point of denial.
(Prepares for barrage)
Hey, your right. I was thinking of "apologetics" (or apologia) where it is "an explanation of motives". (or even the literary Christian movement)
Hey, your right. I was thinking of "apologetics" (or apologia) where it is "an explanation of motives". (or even the literary Christian movement)Apologist - The term comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογί& ;#945;), meaning a speaking in defense.
It means exactly what I think it means, as it sometimes has a derogatory connotation, and can be used as an insult as much as a descriptive term. It was originally used in an academic or theological context but has now come ot be used of someone who uncategorically defends a person, position or idea, often to the point of denial.
(Prepares for barrage)
Threadjack! Not a problem! The most famous in terms of Christian apologia would be C.S.Lewis. Although that string of numbers is meant to be Greek characters! :D End threadjack!
You guys ever heard Vince McMahon's entrance music (Attitude Era WWF)?
It went :
You've got
no chance
That's what ya got
no chance in hell!
Now I got it playing in my head, only this time it's:
no plans
that's what we got
no plans for fourth
we've got
no plans!
no plans for fourth!
Here's the song (in case you don't know, and you should've called somebody) done to a El Hazard vidclip:
And here with Chipmunks singing it:
Alvin McMahon's Entrance Music
What they actually said is that there was no plan for a 4e that required the usage of miniatures.
Many people on the Wizards' boards (from WotC) put out statements to the effect that D&D4 was years off, in the same year that it was later announced as impending.
P.S. What they actually said was "there are no plans for a fourth edition at this time."Chatter on a message board is not the same as a statement from the company itself.
Furthermore, the statement "there are no plans for a fourth edition at this time" is conditional. Obviously the plans changed.
Why is that a lie?
Because if you listen to some of the official podcasts, from WOTC and Gleemax, you'll hear "official" employees ot WoTC talk about how they've been developing and testing 4E for a couple of years now. In no case can "there are no plans for a fourth edition at this time" be squared with the fact that it was in the works for a significant period of time.
They lied.
Now, you have to decide if the lie they told, which may have had what they consider valid reasons related to marketing or whatever, means anything to you the consumer. Some people obviously believe so. Others don't.
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Apologist - The term comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογί& ;#945;), meaning a speaking in defense.
It means exactly what I think it means, as it sometimes has a derogatory connotation, and can be used as an insult as much as a descriptive term. It was originally used in an academic or theological context but has now come ot be used of someone who uncategorically defends a person, position or idea, often to the point of denial.
(Prepares for barrage)
Not that I'm looking for a cookie or anything, but I think I might have been the first person who used that term. It seems a fair counter to "4e-hater", though.
I like the multiple connotations... the definition is in the eye of the beholder... (now a solo monster! ;)
If so, you may have a cookie. Hmm, I wonder if one can buy beholder cookie cutters? The central eye would be fun to ice, and there could be those little silver ball things for the small eyes.
(now a solo monster! ;)
See, I misunderstood that when they first put that info out. I thought he was now a soloABLE monster.
Now I'm on a corpse run.
Bastards.
rez plz?
Dude! You got whomped by a cookie with a frosted center eye?
Dude! You got whomped by a cookie with a frosted center eye?(now a solo monster! ;)
See, I misunderstood that when they first put that info out. I thought he was now a soloABLE monster.
Now I'm on a corpse run.
Bastards.
rez plz?
I'm a warrior. Warriors can't solo.
I noticed. For a longest I thought the class name was WarriorLFT. :P
That's nothing. Wait until you see the mind flayer meatball with spaghetti tentacles.
That's nothing. Wait until you see the mind flayer meatball with spaghetti tentacles.
pastathulhu
That's nothing. Wait until you see the mind flayer meatball with spaghetti tentacles.pastathulhuHis drops are gimp.
Hey! That reminds me; how can you tell you got a new player to tabletop on your hands? He keeps poking the monster minis with his finger for loot after he kills them .