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WotC has their new video interview up about the 4e Tiefling and Gnome.
It really is pretty lame that they joke about something a lot of people take pretty serious.
It's not that I don't have a sense of humor...
So a large portion of our constituents do like gnomes? Who knew? I mean they have to use small weapons. And come on, tieflings have horns and tails. Eh, f#%^ 'em. Maybe some humor will lighten the mood. Somebody get that guy who did the Beholder on the phone.
I found the video funny, though once more the profanity felt out of place. I was hoping the tiefling would incinerate someone (the gnome) because he was annoying me. I took it as light-hearted fun. Still not that informative, of course, but amusing. Unlike many other items posted over there, I didn't get offended by lack of content.
They can still improve on this, though. That off-hand mention of the fey pact was their hook, and they failed to elaborate on why the tiefling favored the infernal pact over the fey pact. And again, I'm an adult, and I don't need the profanity.
The gnome has always been a joke race. Basically the illegitimate love child of a dwarf and halfling.
Not sorry to see it go.
Tieflings though are cool. They probably should have complimented it with the aasimar though.
Video was moderately funny, better than the beholder one. Seems the running 'joke' is death of the host.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Sounds like they didn't go the easy route that would have made me laugh.
A Tiefling and a Gnome
A Tiefling and a Gnome
One is demon touched, the other is, short.
To survive the edition change
Only one the PHB will contain
A Tiefling, a tiefling and a gnome
Before the prints are run
A plan will be unfurled
Tieflings have hellfire
Gnomes talk to squirles
A Tiefling and a Gnome
A Tiefling and a Gnome
There's not room enough
for the book to hold their stuff
The one with out a hook
Will be in the Mosnter Book
They're fighting
A Tiefling and a gnome gnome gnome gnome.
Narf!
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The video was funny and I like the style of animation.
The foul language is really out of place...
The subject matter is just in poor taste. It is an obvious attempt to alleviate dissension. The simple truth is that DnD is not fantasy in the Tolkien sense any more. I am bitter about it and I admit it, but joking about a sore subject is not good conflict resolution tactics.
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The subject matter is just in poor taste. It is an obvious attempt to alleviate dissension. The simple truth is that DnD is not fantasy in the Tolkien sense any more. I am bitter about it and I admit it, but joking about a sore subject is not good conflict resolution tactics.
It's the internet age. Mocking people who disagree with you is the new black. Rather than say, 'This is what we're doing, and this is why,' you get more 'kewl points' by saying something that is catchy and snarky and derisive, scoring points off of anyone who disagrees with you by suggesting that they are 1) old, 2) fat, 3) living in their mamma's basement.
People don't want a discussion, they want a blistering pithy rebuke that they can quote in their sig.
And as a reminder if you don't want to sign in just hit "printer friendly" at the bottom and ta-da! (Or click here)
Edit: When did gnomes ever look like that? It looks like a hobbit ghoul.
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I'm not part of the new generation of cool kids (pardon... kewl), but am I mistaken in understanding that adjectives like "sick" and "hella-" are so, like, 2006?
Moderately funny cartoon, I like the gnome's naivete... also how he seems totally oblivious to the implications of what has been done... kind of like the designers. ;)
Oh, and awesome lyrics to the tune of "pinky and the brain"!
The simple truth is that DnD is not fantasy in the Tolkien sense any more.
Which is odd, considering how successful The Lord of the Rings movies were. You'd think they'd be talking about how D&D lets you play someone like Aragorn, Gandalf, Gimli, Legolas, etc. instead of just watching them on a movie screen. [sarcasm] Maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand WotC's marketing strategy. [/sarcasm]
As I watched, the only thing that came to mind was:
The gnome is funny and cool ... and that I'd like to play one, plus, cuz he's got a LAIR!
Old Tiefy girl, there, does nothing for me. I still don't get the appeal, as a player race, that is.
So, I think the gnome out shone the new girl, even in the video meant to prop up the Tiefy. So, what does THAT tell you ...
All I got from this was a sense of dread. I thought the animation itself was sharp, but what was said disturbed me. Also, notice the tiefling: huge horns, red skin, big fat tail. Didn't I read somewhere that tieflings could pass for human from a distance? At what distance does THAT pass for a regular old human?
I thought it was really funny, much funnier than the beholder one.
I thought it was darn funny, and didn't seem particularly mean-spirited toward gnome fans. I didn't find the (bleeped out) profanity offensive, either.
All-in-all much better than the last video. But what is up with all the silly accents in WOTC marketing material?
All-in-all much better than the last video. But what is up with all the silly accents in WOTC marketing material?
Accent = sophistimaction.
You know, I think I've met the person who's playing the Tiefling in that video. Spends all his time talking about all the awesome things that his character can do, tries his best to start a fight with other party members so he can prove how awesome he is, frequently gets the party killed through stupid and careless actions, yep thats the guy. And yes, I realize that the tiefling was a woman, but thats just how this guy rolls.
I gotta say though that I really liked the animation in general. I thought it was very well done, with a lot of subtle mannerisms that bring the characters to life (like that thing the gnome does with his eye when he says "I have a lair" for the last time).
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Good animation but I just can't get myself to like the tiefling as a "core" race. It seems like they are trying too hard to make them evil just for the sake of being cool. A perfect class for the trench and ponytail crowd. I do see lots of ways to use tieflings as monsters though. RE:gnomes I always liked the way that gnomes were done in everquest. The funny thing is that I couldn't stand the little guys until I got to know them a little better. :)
PS
Am I the only one who was thrown off by the proper way to say "tiefling"? All I want for xmas is my two front tief? Happy holidays everyone!!!
Here's to hoping that they do the MM like the Ultimate Alien Anthology
In my homebrew campaign Dwarves, Gnomes, & Halflings are all just different cultures of the same race. So really if I really WANT gnomes in my game, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. Not really hard to put them back in. Sure, I totally understand that it irks some people and for them I feel for them I really do. But I know (and WoTC does too) that just like me, anyone who wants them in their game is going to add them back in. I'm betting (and hoping) that their packing a lot of info in those new books and some fat had to be trimmed. We can debate on what needed to be cut all day long and it all comes down to personal opinion. In the end the designers liked Tieflings better and put them in.
In my own experience of RPG design I've learned something that's helped me. Design for yourself, like-minded people will like your stuff. If you design counter to that goal, your product will seem fake and flawed (unless you've got lots of ranks in Bluff). RPG writing doesn't pay very well and it's actually a pretty grueling job, so at least have fun with it and write what you like. You never can tell if the public will agree with you, so that's why you need PR. Then you've got to of course pray that your PR is good...
I'm totally excited about 4e and I like what I've seen but I must agree I don't like the PR. The veiled insult that gamers have been stupid for 30 years and that grapple is hard (it's not) and that we need to be told all this by a French version of FES from "That 70s Show" doesn't help. :)
All-in-all much better than the last video. But what is up with all the silly accents in WOTC marketing material?
I really, really am not someone that usually throws out the knee jerk WoW references. But if you are wondering about the accent . . . see if you can find a sound clip of a drenai from World of Warcraft.
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But if you are wondering about the accent . . . see if you can find a sound clip of a drenai from World of Warcraft.
Or of Ivan Drago's wife from Rocky IV.
Or envision what Nightcrawler would sound like if he was a chick.
Plus, the whole dominatrix get-up made it kind of fitting.
Of all thething I thought about the accent. WoW wasn't one of them.
Oh! Ever notice how Sean Connery sounds like a WoW dwarf? Bah, trying to capitalize on MMORPG's he is!
=P
Or of Ivan Drago's wife from Rocky IV.Or envision what Nightcrawler would sound like if he was a chick.
Plus, the whole dominatrix get-up made it kind of fitting.
Of all thething I thought about the accent. WoW wasn't one of them.
Oh! Ever notice how Sean Connery sounds like a WoW dwarf? Bah, trying to capitalize on MMORPG's he is!
=P
Nightcrawler has a German accent.
Dwarves having a Scottish accent has been a fantasy cliche for years, but I wasn't aware that demonic things having Slavic accents was just as common. I feel edified.
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Nightcrawler has a German accent.
Dwarves having a Scottish accent has been a fantasy cliche for years, but I wasn't aware that demonic things having Slavic accents was just as common. I feel edified.
Why I found her accent befitting:
The name "tiefling" was coined by Wolfgang Baur, when original Planescape designer David "Zeb" Cook asked for a Germanic-sounding word for humans with fiendish blood. Baur derived the name from teufel, or Devil in German. The direct translation of "tiefling", however, would be "deepling", since "tief" means "deep". A closer derivation from "teufel" would be "teufling".
Perhaps their reasoning?
German and Slavic chicks speaking English sound about the same to me.
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This cartoon was just another sad attempt to be hip by using bleeped out profanity and "like" and "sick" way too much. I'm so sure some 13 year old MMORPG addict is going to see this cartoon and buy into 4th edition D&D because of it. What is WotC thinking?
They're thinking, "Screw old people. They're going to die soon anyway, right? Now 13-year-old MMORPG kids... they'll be around for a while. Come here little boy... we have some marzipan... erm... candy."
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What is WotC thinking?
Perhaps they are thinking this - since sales are dropping and fewer kids are playing then we need to adapt if the game is to survive and thrive for generations to come.
Sure, that strategy will alienate older players in the short term, but if it works then they will have saved this hobby from the scrap heap.
I for one love the role playing possibilities of the tiefling - tortured soul, seen by humans as a monster. Can't wait to try one.
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I for one love the role playing possibilities of the tiefling - tortured soul, seen by humans as a monster. Can't wait to try one.
Didn't we used to call that "Drow"? Or Goth, I suppose... ;) At least instead of thousands of "good drow" running around, there will be a bunch of hot demon-chicks running around talking like Zsa-Zsa Gabor. :) Honestly, the accent doesn't bother me.. it could have been anything (other than perhaps a Liverpool accent...). I'm really at the point of "wow, ok, so they're going to do that, eh?" With it being a whole different system and a different genre of fantasy than I'm used to (or plan to play in) it's just an outside observation for me at this point. I suspect the tiefling will fit in very well with the new game (and I've never been averse to playing "monster" races in 3.x, either).
Nightcrawler has a German accent.
Dwarves having a Scottish accent has been a fantasy cliche for years, but I wasn't aware that demonic things having Slavic accents was just as common. I feel edified.
Why I found her accent befitting:
The name "tiefling" was coined by Wolfgang Baur, when original Planescape designer David "Zeb" Cook asked for a Germanic-sounding word for humans with fiendish blood. Baur derived the name from teufel, or Devil in German. The direct translation of "tiefling", however, would be "deepling", since "tief" means "deep". A closer derivation from "teufel" would be "teufling".
Perhaps their reasoning?
German and Slavic chicks speaking English sound about the same to me.
So you're saying that you have a bad ear for languages...
Seriously, saying that the accents of German and Slavic speaking people sound the same is like saying that all Americans (or Brits) sound the same.I'm not trying to insult you, but if you really can't tell the difference you really DO have a bad ear for languages. Just stating a fact. :-)
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So you're saying that you have a bad ear for languages...
Seriously, saying that the accents of German and Slavic speaking people sound the same is like saying that all Americans (or Brits) sound the same.
I'm not trying to insult you, but if you really can't tell the difference you really DO have a bad ear for languages. Just stating a fact. :-)
Nope, not languages. They are speaking english after all. A bad ear for dialect differential? Definitely. I've got partial hearing loss. Actually, I guess you could just say I have a bad ear then.
Nope, not languages. They are speaking english after all. A bad ear for dialect differential? Definitely. I've got partial hearing loss. Actually, I guess you could just say I have a bad ear then.So you're saying that you have a bad ear for languages...
Seriously, saying that the accents of German and Slavic speaking people sound the same is like saying that all Americans (or Brits) sound the same.
I'm not trying to insult you, but if you really can't tell the difference you really DO have a bad ear for languages. Just stating a fact. :-)
Ahh, so it's only on one ear? That would explain why the dialects are hard to discern for you, since they're half (in this case) foreign language and half native language dialect (I know, I know, bad joke). ;-)
And, yes, I should have said dialect instead of language, my bad! :-)|
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The gnome has always been a joke race. Basically the illegitimate love child of a dwarf and halfling.
Not sorry to see it go.
Tieflings though are cool. They probably should have complimented it with the aasimar though.
Video was moderately funny, better than the beholder one. Seems the running 'joke' is death of the host.
To be honest with you, I don't like gnomes much either. However, they have existed as a PC race for quite some time, so eliminating them as a PC race seems rather silly and arbitrary. Some people actually do like gnomes and half-orcs, so they should have the option to play one without waiting a year or so and shelling out another 40 bucks. Once again, the use of profanity and "hip lingo" in this cartoon was unnecessary and lame.
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Just because gnomes have been in the game for a while is not reason enough to keep them. And just because some people like them does not mean that enough people like them.
No, but by the same token, if [u]any[/u] people like them, and they [u]have[/u] been in the game for a while (a while being since AD&D, at least, so like 30 years), then why take them out? They're not broken, like races that have come along since, they fill an important niche in a lot of games. So why irritate a percentage of an ever-shrinking market?
I don't know. It just seems careless.|
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Just because gnomes have been in the game for a while is not reason enough to keep them. And just because some people like them does not mean that enough people like them.No, but by the same token, if [u]any[/u] people like them, and they [u]have[/u] been in the game for a while (a while being since AD&D, at least, so like 30 years), then why take them out? They're not broken, like races that have come along since, they fill an important niche in a lot of games. So why irritate a percentage of an ever-shrinking market?
I don't know. It just seems careless.
Maybe its due in part to continually catering to a minority. If D&D seeks to keep the minority happy without looking at the attitudes and preferences of its broader audience then it will continue to shrink.
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Just because gnomes have been in the game for a while is not reason enough to keep them. And just because some people like them does not mean that enough people like them.No, but by the same token, if [u]any[/u] people like them, and they [u]have[/u] been in the game for a while (a while being since AD&D, at least, so like 30 years), then why take them out? They're not broken, like races that have come along since, they fill an important niche in a lot of games. So why irritate a percentage of an ever-shrinking market?
I don't know. It just seems careless.
threadjack
The reason given, from what I've heard and read in Races and Classes posts, is that people were getting gnomes mixed up with elves or dwarfs. Granted, I am a fan of Gnomes and never had that problem, but perhaps others have.
/threadjack
Perhaps they are thinking this - since sales are dropping and fewer kids are playing then we need to adapt if the game is to survive and thrive for generations to come.
Sure, that strategy will alienate older players in the short term, but if it works then they will have saved this hobby from the scrap heap.
I think most complaints against 4E can be explained by this question and how you respond to it: should D&D sell its soul for continued success? Some players -- perhaps most players -- will get confused and ask, "What soul? It's just a game." However, there are some players -- perhaps a significant minority -- for whom D&D does have a soul, an essence that's tied up, to varying degrees, to specific rules and content. For them, D&D isn't just a random fantasy game but a specific one with specific features. Change too many of those features, for whatever reason, and it won't be the same game anymore.
I'd wager that almost everyone who looks forward to 4E does so because they don't think D&D has a soul to sell or they conceive of its soul in the most reductionist fashion as to be inconsequential. Meanwhile, almost everyone who dreads 4E does so because they see it as too major a departure in some way from the essence of D&D. Neither is right or wrong but I think those who belong to the latter group should probably just accept that their conception of D&D is gone and not coming back and move on. That's what I've done and I'm much happier.
What is WotC thinking?Perhaps they are thinking this - since sales are dropping and fewer kids are playing then we need to adapt if the game is to survive and thrive for generations to come.
Sure, that strategy will alienate older players in the short term, but if it works then they will have saved this hobby from the scrap heap.
I for one love the role playing possibilities of the tiefling - tortured soul, seen by humans as a monster. Can't wait to try one.
With all of the material that WotC has in their arsenal, THIS is the best that they can come up with? There are so many interesting elements that are built into D&D from years of development and game play that I don't understand why the current designers have such a need to shed D&D's past.
In order to attract new players the folks at WotC need to alienate those who appreciate D&D's roots? Why? Sounds pretty lame to me.
D&D needs new stewards...
D&D needs new stewards...
With the OGL, D&D already has new stewards. No, it won't be "D&D," but, with the right people at the helm, people who understand and respect the traditions and shared story begun in 1974, it's now quite possible for someone to come along and keep the old ways alive.
The question is whether anyone will ...
I'd wager that almost everyone who looks forward to 4E does so because they don't think D&D has a soul to sell or they conceive of its soul in the most reductionist fashion as to be inconsequential. Meanwhile, almost everyone who dreads 4E does so because they see it as too major a departure in some way from the essence of D&D. Neither is right or wrong but I think those who belong to the latter group should probably just accept that their conception of D&D is gone and not coming back and move on. That's what I've done and I'm much happier.
If WotC's grand experiment succeeds and attracts enough new gamers to replace the ones they are alienating, not just with the changes, but how they are presenting those changes, then the revitalized industry will still constain publishers (i.e., Paizo) who respect the "soul" of D&D. In fact, I forsee them doing even better as the new gamers learn (as we old gamers did), that there is more to gaming than killing monsters and looting their stuff.
If WotC's grand experiment fails however, they will be in a difficult position. Will they release a 5e that moves back to toward the first 30+ years of D&D in attempt to win back the gamers they alienated? Will they drop the pencil-and-paper aspect of D&D and jump fully into the MMO market? Will they put the RPG portion of the D&D brand on ice to market CCGs and minis?
If WotC's grand experiment succeeds and attracts enough new gamers to replace the ones they are alienating, not just with the changes, but how they are presenting those changes, then the revitalized industry will still constain publishers (i.e., Paizo) who respect the "soul" of D&D. In fact, I forsee them doing even better as the new gamers learn (as we old gamers did), that there is more to gaming than killing monsters and looting their stuff.
I think the likelihood of 4E failing by any metric other than the most wild-eyed of optimism (i.e. catches lightning in a bottle a second time and the late 70s/early 80s fad/craze is reborn) is small. I suspect 4E will do well enough for WotC's bottom line and most gamers, including quite a few critics of 4E, will, within a year or so, adopt the new rules because they've always adopted the new rules even when they didn't like them as much as the older rules.
That said, I do not think it likely at all that 4E will attract very many new gamers. Roleplaying is an esoteric and old fashioned hobby, much like model railroad construction or stamp collecting. There will always be lots of people who do it and a cottage industry of companies to support it, but, barring some unforeseen and unplannable turn of events, it's never going to be mainstream in pen & paper tabletop form. If WotC really, truly wants 4E to make a big splash with people who don't currently RPG, the sad fact is they haven't gone far enough. Adding a GPS to a horse and buggy doesn't offer much appeal to automobile fanciers.
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I think it's very telling that the gnome was actually a character (with a personality, motivation, etc) and the tiefling was just a collection of abilities. That says a lot about what WotC values in making 4th Edition.
Also makes me feel like rolling up a gnome. Hell, a gnome illusionist! There's probably no place for illusion magic in 4th edition either.
There's probably no place for illusion magic in 4th edition either.
Not in the first set of core rules, at least.