I have recently acquired a number of back issues of Dungeon and Dragon magazine and I have all of both the Shackled City and the Age of Worms adventure paths as well as several installments of Savage Tide.
I googled all three and have seen that reviews have been mixed. I don't want to invest the time and energy in a campaign that is going to bog and perhaps loose the attention of my group.
We all enjoy a lot of action, adventure and intrigue but extensive and tedious dungeon crawls get boring and will kill a campaign quicker than anything else. For example, the most successful and entertaining epic campaign I ran was the Dragonlance Chronicles. Those adventures had a great balance of what my group enjoys. On the flip side were the 3rd Ed module series. The site based adventures, read dungeon crawls, were entertaining at first but got tedious quickly and nearly killed the campaign.
As with everything I will be adapting this to my own world.
For folks who may play in the games please use a spoiler space if you include story elements. I'd like to hear from both DMs and players to know what your experiences and opinions of the campaigns were so I can decide if I should bother to try and run them. I especially want to hear from people who played them to completion.
-Josh
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My players are nearing the final chapters of the Age of Worms, and it has been the most memorable and rewarding RPG experience we've ever had, in my opinion. We've somehow managed to keep the same characters alive throughout the campaign (just barely, in some cases) and it has really been a wild and fun ride.
That's one vote for. :D
Good to know it was fun. My skim through of both Age of Worms and Shackled City seemed generally positive. Because of the medium of magazine articles I think there seems to be the possibility of sloppy DM style ruining it. I think this may have been the cause for the negative comments I have seen.
I'll have to see what it's like when i do a detailed read through.
Shackled City was fun. Being the first AP though, the plot wasn't as tight or as coherent as you might want - DM tweaking needed. It's got a fair amount of dungeons but good city intrigue.
Didn't play Age of Worms but the complaint I keep hearing is too many dungeons.
Playing Savage Tide right now. Plot seems tighter. First couple adventures feature dungeons but they're small. Middle (travel) adventure have no dungeon in sight. Good NPCs. Nice variety of different type of adventures (overland, dungeon, mass battle, planar travel, etc.)
Skimming through Age of Worms it looked like a heavy reliance on dungeon crawls, which is precisely why I was asking folks for input. Sometimes it's hard to tell how much of a story relies on a certain element just by the amount of page space dedicated to it.
I learned that the hard way with some of Chaosium's old Call of Cthulhu campaigns.
Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it.
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I DMed the whole Shackled City AP and I'm currently DMing in the second half of the Age of Worms AP.
The SCAP is quite dungeon-crawl heavy, but any DM worth his salt can get a good number of scenes of roleplay and urban intrigue, as the connection between the various parts allows it with ease.
Also, you may have to improvise a lot, which is a good thing for variety of play, but it requests extensive notes on the DM part to no contradict himself on the later stages or not to reveal too much too early (be afraid of divinations!). The later fights are interesting and luckily quite fast to play.
My players are quite fond of the whole AP, as it gave them a dozen or so truly great moments, the kind of sessions that will be remembered for years to come (a fire giant that throws the barbarian into a fiery forge, the monk that plots to become the city lord mayor, a romantic relation that evolves into betrayal and redemption, and more).
The AoWAP also has a heavy emphasis on dungeon crawls, with a couple of exceptions (arena gladiatorial fight and a dinner with evil!), and a good number of occasions for roleplay, urban side-treks, voyage, and so on. However it's more focused on specific locations, so the dungeon factor is somewhat more relevant.
Moreover, the AP structure is more planned ahead, and the sequence of events is more fixed and obvious. Not really railroading, mind that, but as the elements of connection between the adventures are quite vital to the very plot, it's also more difficult to change something.
At the moment, it has a distinct darker atmosphere, and a quite more epic theme, which is greatly appreciated. The bigger enemies though start to show some game-slowing tendencies, as the fights are quite intricated, with lots of elements to keep track of.
My players are quite fond of the whole AP, as it gave them a dozen or so truly great moments, the kind of sessions that will be remembered for years to come (a fire giant that throws the barbarian into a fiery forge, the monk that plots to become the city lord mayor, a romantic relation that evolves into betrayal and redemption, and more).
I appreciate the detailed response. That's the kind of input I was looking for.
From what I can tell all the APs have their own strengths and weaknesses that a little tweaking can make run smoothly. I'm just going to do a detailed read through and decide based on whatever story grabs me the most and talk a little about it with my players to see what they want to play.
Right now I'm running an introductory game to get a friend into the game. The story is a modified to my world Eberron series; The Forgotten Forge, Shadows of the Last War, Whisper of the Vampire's Blade and Grasp of the Emerald Claw with some short Dungeon adventures thrown in. However, I'm always looking for my next big game and the APs really jumped out at me.
My players are quite fond of the whole AP, as it gave them a dozen or so truly great moments, the kind of sessions that will be remembered for years to come (a fire giant that throws the barbarian into a fiery forge, the monk that plots to become the city lord mayor, a romantic relation that evolves into betrayal and redemption, and more).I appreciate the detailed response. That's the kind of input I was looking for.
From what I can tell all the APs have their own strengths and weaknesses that a little tweaking can make run smoothly. I'm just going to do a detailed read through and decide based on whatever story grabs me the most and talk a little about it with my players to see what they want to play.
Right now I'm running an introductory game to get a friend into the game. The story is a modified to my world Eberron series; The Forgotten Forge, Shadows of the Last War, Whisper of the Vampire's Blade and Grasp of the Emerald Claw with some short Dungeon adventures thrown in. However, I'm always looking for my next big game and the APs really jumped out at me.
EateroftheDead, one thing you should really look for as you make your readthrough is solid "outs" in each respective AP. If you're an attentive DM that has a good feel for the pulse of his players it's vital to identify ahead of time a good spot to stop at; a place you can bring the campaign to a smooth satisfying end prematurely if it's not going well. You don't want to ever just bail out on a campaign all of a sudden since even though players that aren't enjoying it would prefer to play something different, they also have invested a lot of time into their characters and the campaign (even though they don't like it) itself. Provide them with a satisfying area to stop at which their characters can retire with dignity and give them a sense of closure.
I haven't read through the entire series of Shackled City or Age of Worms, but I can tell you that Savage Tide has several good places to end it prematurely.
The next spot comes at the end of adventure #5, Tides of Dread. After facing all of the perils to get to Farshore and then saving the colony from a major pirate threat, the PCs can retire as shareholders in Farshore's promising trade relations with Sasserine and beyond. They may also set up estates, marry and raise children destined to be adventurers themselves, or become political leaders/advisors. They will also have the chance to finally take out Vanthus and put an end to Lavinia's problems with him. A very good spot to end the campaing and give the players closure.
You'll find another spot with the completion of adventure #8, The Serpent's of Scuttlecove. In this adventure, you can ad lib the PCs locating the cache of pearls the PCs realized were being manufactured on the Isle of Dread which the pirates intend to plant across the known world to detinate at a preset future date. They will also have a reunion with Harliss from adventure #2, and put an end to the Crimson Fleet for good. You can also add any other loose ends to be wrapped up while you're at it to give the players a sense of closure and the means of retiring with all manner of loot (some of the pirate ships for instance).
After adventure #8, the players head into the Abyss and you'll probably be best off running the last 4 adventures if you want to really give the players the closure they deserve for sticking with this AP that long.
Well, hope that helps. And good luck with your new campaign.
EateroftheDead, one thing you should really look for as you make your readthrough is solid "outs" in each respective AP. If you're an attentive DM that has a good feel for the pulse of his players it's vital to identify ahead of time a good spot to stop at; a place you can bring the campaign to a smooth satisfying end prematurely if it's not going well. You don't want to ever just bail out on a campaign all of a sudden since even though players that aren't enjoying it would prefer to play something different, they also have invested a lot of time into their characters and the campaign (even though they don't like it) itself. Provide them with a satisfying area to stop at which their characters can retire with dignity and give them a sense of closure.
Holy crap, I can't believe I never thought of doing that. I usually just discard the whole thing and move on to something else and I always feel unfulfilled. Seeing those 'outs', or even inserting them, is a great idea. I shall do precisely that from now on. I hate to just end a game without reaching the end but if there is a resolution of sorts it won't be so bad. I can put one in every 6-8 sessions and see how the game is going at the time.
I am reminded of Episode 13 of 24's Season 1. They weren't sure if the series would continue so they made an ending of sorts. Thankfully they continued but that's how I see this idea going.
I am very intrigued now and quite like the idea. Thank you very much for that one.
No problem. You're welcome :)
Shackled City needs quite a bit of work on the DMs part to bring it together. The city of Cauldron is the starting and ending location of most of the adventures and its in interacting with the city that your PCs will be doing much of their roleplaying. Generally speaking I think this AP will hinge on the DM bringing the city to life to make it work. Its got some great dungeon locations in it but there may be just too many for your tastes.
Age of Worms is all about that old school feeling redone in a sexy up to date format. Its friggen epic and its amazing in that regards. If your players loved Dragonlance they really might dig this. It totally builds to a phenominal climax as the story goes forward. Picture scenes where the PCs navigate a chasm city while caught between flights of Dragons doing battle with armies of Giants for a taste of some of what this has to offer. There are exciting Gladitaroial duels, a social scene that is well describe by a poster above as 'Dinner with Evil'. There really are some fantastic scenes in this AP.
All of that said its still quite heavy on the dungeon crawling. Their great dungeons by and large, touching on the iconic feel of an ancient ruin, a role play heavy dungeon that sends the players in and out several times to get more information from a nearby town, The aforementioned city with Giants and Dragons, a duel with an undead Dragon of immense power (and no little old school D&D fame) etc. Still no matter how good a Dungeon is its still a dungeon - and this has a lot of Dungeons.
It also tends to be a bit weak on the RP, players move around a lot to get to all these interesting locations and in turn they really don't interact with the same people all that often. A DM can maybe work on this aspect a little, especially during adaptation to a homebrew but this is definitely one of the weak points of this AP.
The other weak point is its inconsistent. 1/2 the AP is full of adventures that are just draw droopingly well done (if still, usually, more or less, old school dungeons) but the other 1/2 just does not hit the same kind of highs. Its not at all easy to just excise one part of this from the next part either. This thing builds on itself, so you can find yourself having to play through a full scale dungeon that maybe is not stellar (none of them are actually bad however - and some play better then they read) just to get to the more exciting Dungeon that comes next. This is my favorite AP but it can in many ways be boiled down to one Dungeon crawl follows another.
Savage Tide, for the I hate Dungeons crowd, this does a pretty good job of scaling them back. Dungeons, when they show up, tend to be smaller. This is really a story about a brother and a sister who are entangled in a rather dysfunctional family dynamic. Sure there are Demon Princes, artifacts and a plot to destroy the world but thats all actually secondary to the story of Lavina and Vanthus and how these two interact with each other.
This one has some Dungeon Crawls but its ultimately dungeon crawl lite. The PCs should have lots of opportunity to RP if the DM puts some effort into that area which is a good thing. If this AP has a weak point its that the railroad tracks can becoming rather obvious at some points. All APs constrain the players to a fairly significant extent (Dragon Lance was brutal in this regard) and this AP requires that the players go to place X to get to the interesting scene a lot of the time. Since the AP makes the RP scenes integral to the plot line you can sometimes end up feeling like your walking along the rail tracks moving between one dramatic scene to the next dramatic scene.
If your players thought that Dragon Lance was the cats pajama's then I have to think that they'll love the APs. For all their weak points I don't think anyone anywhere else has done this kind of full campaign story arc to the level achieved by the Pazio staff. I personally feel that, the second and third APs especially, blow the Dragon Lance stuff away - and I liked the Dragon Lance material, I'm a fan.
However if your players are looking for more control over their destiny then they should look else ware. These APs allow you to develop your characters personality to a certain extent but the story is already told. All the players really get to do is decide how their version of this story is going to play out. If your players resist this they are going to wreck the campaign.
Agree with most of what's already been said. All the APs have their strengths and weaknesses, it really depends on what you're looking for.
Shackled City has a few gaps that need filling, particularly in terms of character motivations (what if the PCs refuse to go to the Abyss? What if they refuse to attack the temple of Wee Jas?), and lacks emotional payoff towards the end, because pretty much none of the big climactic combats are against people that the PCs have ever encountered or even heard of before. The faceoff against the Cagewrights in the volcano caverns was particularly bad. It seemed a bit hollow. Also, there's some balancing issues since IIRC the path is intended for a 6-person party, and some conversion issues, since the version from the magazines is in 3.0e.
Age of Worms has some great stuff but also some bits (Spire of Long Shadows) that look like tedious meatgrinders. Even though there are some really atmospheric non-dungeon adventures (the gladiatorial tournament and the dinner party in particular), the 'feel' of the campaign is very much 'delve in large complex dungeon, retrieve clue, return clue to NPC sage, level up, get given directions to next dungeon'. Also, the prevalence of undead in the latter stages of the campaign is so heavy that rogues (and scouts, ninjas, enchanters, beguilers, and to some extent monks...) may feel useless in combat situations.
Savage Tide is a lot more independent and free-wheeling than the others, and has a pretty interesting balance of combat, exploration, negotiation, politics, and a good blend of enemies (perhaps slightly too heavy on the demons though). Main problems here are that the PCs may get too attached to Sasserine and refuse to leave, that the isolated nature of the middle 50% of the campaign makes it very hard to give them the opportunity to buy/commission magic items or deal with character backstory hooks, and that the assumptions regarding PC decisions made by the final few modules are extremely problematic from the point of view of the paladin's code (or any Good character at all, to be honest). If your PCs are reluctant to ally with some of the most evil beings in the multiverse, then you're either going to have to railroad them into doing it anyway or else entirely replace huge chunks of the last three modules. Also, Savage Tide is quite dungeon-light, which may or may not be a good thing. Kick-down-the-door type players may get frustrated with being restricted to one-off outdoor fights and the occasional six-room dungeonlet, at least until bigger complexes in the City of Broken Idols and Into the Maw come along in the mid-high teens level range...
If your players thought that Dragon Lance was the cats pajama's...
...and the bees knees.
Dragonlance Chronicles was one of the most fun campaigns I ever ran. My players are pretty good about following obvious leads and not derailing the story too much. They always want to know what's coming next. I only found one part that I really had to force things along and I wish I had altered it and that was when the party first returns with the Disks and they are captured by Draconians. If there is anything my players hate it's imprisonment. I could have done it differently but didn't think to until after.
I love long and rich campaigns like that and my players do too. The prospect of starting at 1st level and playing a single story through to retirement is really exciting for us.
For example, I was intrigued by The Drow War and the whole Complete Campaign concept but I'm leery about dropping the money on it. I was taken quite by surprise when I stumbled across, quite accidentally, Age of Worms while looking up Eberron adventures. Much to my joy I learned I had the other APs as well.
Well if you are more or less interested I really have to suggest you look into picking these mags up. Start from the beginning and just read them.
Not only do you get the AP but every mag comes with two other smaller adventures as well. Some of the non-AP adventures are themselves really excellent work, they're not filler at all. In fact sometimes the non AP adventure is actually better then the 'featured' AP adventure.
Considering how much you get these are just stunning deals cash wise and, even if you decide not to run the AP, they make interesting reading and you can probably pillage good ideas from them for your homebrew.
There probably is no better bang for your buck out there. You just can't really go wrong here.
you can probably pillage good ideas from them for your homebrew.
Which is exactly why I picked up a crapload of back issues and how I discovered Age of Worms. I'm in the process of getting the last few Savage Tide issues I don't have yet.
I'm going to just run them in order. They shouldn't take my group too long to play through them. My group pulls about a level a session so we should get through these in 20-25 sessions. I just need to hope they stay focused on D&D long enough and don't want to switch to World of Darkness or Shadowrun or something.
I'm going to just run them in order. They shouldn't take my group too long to play through them. My group pulls about a level a session so we should get through these in 20-25 sessions. I just need to hope they stay focused on D&D long enough and don't want to switch to World of Darkness or Shadowrun or something.
Your experience may certainly vary, but I am finding that I have only made it up to Flood Season in that many adventures. I DO however add in a tremendous amount of Role Playing in between each adventure and this has made the SCAP way more fun.
I too have decided to run these in order. I think they get better and better as they go, but that they are all good... so I don't want to short treat one because I played another first that learned from the first. Let the players enjoy them all!
Sean Mahoney
Your experience may certainly vary, but I am finding that I have only made it up to Flood Season in that many adventures. I DO however add in a tremendous amount of Role Playing in between each adventure and this has made the SCAP way more fun.
I run a small group of only two players. They do all kinds of roleplaying and between each other and with the world around them but they tend to stay real focused on what they need to do in the story. We play 8-10 hour sessions and they usually advance just under a level each session.
Running the Dragonlance Chronicles in 2nd Edition took us about that long and I always use that campaign as a basis of comparison.
I think they get better and better as they go, but that they are all good... so I don't want to short treat one because I played another first that learned from the first.
Indeed. I don't want one to feel crappy by comparison because it looks so good.