Sporadically, I come across comments from posters who seem to have a strong dislike for the Realms as a campaign world. I'm curious: what specifically turns you off about the setting? The only thing I've never been fond of are Ed's hard-to-pronounce names for some of the denizens...
I think all the prepublished campaign settings are interesting (some more so then others). And I don't think Forgotten Realms is at the bottom of the barrel.
They all have merit but I prefer to make my own setting.
I prefer to think that there are campaign settings that I love and I just want to jump in and DM, and there are others that I'm sure I could have fun in as a player, but I couldn't get into as a DM. I loved playing in Greyhawk as a player, but I never could get up the drive to run it as a DM. I love FR and Dragonlance, and I really liked Spelljammer and Dark Sun, but I could never get into Birthright, for example.
Its not that one or the other is better, but some aspects "speak" to people differently.
I think sometimes people tend to get defensive of their own choices, or they get upset when others can't see their point of view and why they love a given setting, and it comes across poorly. Then again, other times some things in a setting just rub someone the wrong way and they want nothing to do with it. I can understand that, as long as they don't assume that those that aren't bothered by the same things they are aren't somehow foolish for not seeing the problem that they see.
And for what its worth, I love the Forgotten Realms, but I could really do without Drizzt . . . just saying . . .
|
Wait, Wait, Wait...
It's not necessarily bashing to make them feel better about themselves (I like FR somewhat). It's just that so much FR material rides on Drizzt and the drow. And it's been used to death!
Overkill
Done too much
Redundant
Said the same thing more than once but in different ways
Repetitive
The horse is dead
Maybe it's similar to folks who like Star Trek, somewhat, and when they go to their first convention 30 fanatics in FULL Klingon regalia swarm over them and spout (in Klingon, no less) how great and awesome and spectacular and innovative and amazing and dashing and honorable and creative and unbelievable and superior Klingons are to anything else in the whole universe, Ka'Plah. And then, when the new book or movie comes out -- it's all about Klingons.
And next year, more Klingon fluff...
And the year after, and the year after...
There's what, 21 Drizzt books out, now?
Don't get me wrong, I love "The Icewind Dale" Trilogy. I enjoyed the Homeland Trilogy and even read the "Legacy" - "Passage to Dawn" series. Heck, I've even read 10000000000000000 Orcs vs Drizzt all by himself Trilogy. Pretty good.
Now there's three more.
And 4 that I missed somewhere.
But at least I can count on this -- next year when 4E finally takes over and completes the raping of D&D -- FR will advance 100 years or so and everything will be washed away.
Oh, Damn, Drizzt will still be alive.
-W. E. Ray
Sporadically, I come across comments from posters who seem to have a strong dislike for the Realms as a campaign world. I'm curious: what specifically turns you off about the setting? The only thing I've never been fond of are Ed's hard-to-pronounce names for some of the denizens...
I can speak here from a DM who has run a lot of FR campaigns in the past but has moved past it. To me FR is more of an adolescent setting. Nothing is too dark or harsh (hellgate keep was a letdown) and there is a frickin cr@pton of magic. You walk in Waterdeep and level 10 wizards are on every corner selling potions...because somehow a level 10 wizard would have no other way to earn a living with all his spell power than to sell some adventurer potions (but i digress).
My biggest problem with FR was that it's so generic. They took everything from every game world including multiple pantheons from real-world myth and threw them all together in one big lump.
Then they threw in technology and the "new world" and tried to have it co-exist with 13th century technology in another area of the world only a hop skip and a jump away.
I prefer a more serious Hyboria, Birthright, Middle Earth setting personally and after I got out of my mid-teens found FR and its books to be very childish...
Ok there's my rant on FR
P.S. Let's not forget just how horrible the gods war books were with Cyric just up and turning evil and into a god; oh and the Elminster book Making of a Mage ...worst book ever; talk about a mishmash of horrid writing.
|
...Nothing is too dark or harsh (hellgate keep was a letdown) and there is a frickin cr@pton of magic....
The story lines (Drizzt notwithstanding) have developed over the last several years into distinctly darker tales than the '89-'99 years, to the point that it's almost apples and oranges to compare a 1991 FR story to a 2007 story. I agree, reference the glut of magic, which I think is fairly universally recognized, vis-a-vis the introduction of Shadowweave and the crazy whatever-magic of the 4e FR...
|
I have also run several FR games, but I no longer consider FR my setting of choice. When I first played D&D, I played in Greyhawk because there wasn't much else. Then FR came out, and I read a few of the books. I thought they were pretty cool, so I started running my games there. However, like Enter Sandman, FR became totally overplayed. I came to realize that I liked a darker, grittier campaign world. Back to Greyhawk (in a roundabout fashion) I went.
The one thing that bothers me about the Realms is the drow. Drow made that entire campaign popular, and I have met several people who believe that Drow were an offshoot of the FR books. They have no idea that drow came from Greyhawk. And they were all evil. All of them. They are incredible adversaries for an adventuring party--but it seems that almost every young gaming group has at least one scimitar-wielding good drow "outcast." It has come to pass that there are more good drow than evil ones, if you count all the PCs.
No longer the bad guys, now the race of choice. I guess what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that I don't like the fact that the Realms cheapened the drow.
And Halruaa(sp?) is just plain goofy. In Halruaa, even homeless dungsweepers are fifth level wizards. Ridiculous.
Well, I started buying Greyhawk stuff around the time AD&D2 came out. I bought it because I thought that everybody and their brother used Forgotten Realms at that time. I don´t know all that much about FR, but names like Elminster and Drizzt are very popular, and I came to not liking them - a near-godlike wizard NPC, and a drow turned good used as template by all too many folks thinking that twin-scimitar wielding outcast drow are a cool concept, so much so that this idea is used to death.
Both characters did nothing to endear the setting to me, quite the contrary. Also, it seems to me that a lot of high-level NPC, mainly wizards, run around and are overused as deus-ex-machina. This impression may be wrong.
So, I do not bash the Realms per se, but I just don´t care for the setting.
Stefan
Not A Realms basher here.
Just prefer Greyhawk.
As someone said up-post, it "speaks to me" more. Perhaps it's the fact that I started playing D&D before FR came out...
|
FR has so much stuff in it that you'll probably stumble over somethig you dislike eventually.
I've only ever DMed and played in a small area - draw a rough circle containing zhentil keep, cormyr and sembia - and I like it (dalelands and cormanthor especially). The gods are fun and having Zhents, Cult of the Dragon and Fire Knives to throw in is nice too.
But i've no interest in Red Wizards, Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Halruaa, The Shining South, Evermeet etc. Halaster and Undermountian hold no appeal for me. I'm not eager to do much with Yuan-Ti...
Luckily i've never had a PC try to be drizzt either.
I've played and DMed the Realms for quite a few years and I still love the setting. But there are certainly a few legitimate gripes about it.
1) Elminster. I like him well enough, but he's a walking deus-ex-machina. For a man that's supposed to work behind the scenes, he seems to know what's happening better than the gods themselves. Not necessarily all that entertaining.
2) Driz'zt. Read above commentary. The novels are well-written, but even I get tired of his inner turmoil. I laughed and laughed when he was confronted by the female elf in the 1000 Orcs trilogy and she came onto him. Why? He finally acted like a man-confused by a woman. But the main comments about the hordes of clones is understandable. We've had a few ourselves.
3) Magic. I'm not bashing the idea of magic. It's just that the place is so chock full of it. See comments about wizards on Waterdeep's corners and the nation of Halruaa for examples. The influence of Mystra ties into this. I want magic in my world, but when you have to be epic level to actually be a notable spellcaster things are going a bit too far IMHO. I also have seldom seen high-level/epic level characters in classes besides wizard of any note. Storm Silverhand and her sister Qilue come to mind, and that's about it.
4) Age. The FR has been around for several decades now. With all the fluff out there as a result of this, our group has concluded that there's barely a square inch of the map that isn't detailed somewhere. Just a logical effect of all these years as a popular setting. It's hyperbole, true, but when I sit down and look at a map of Toril, there are very few places that I can say I know little about. I've got a lot of FR books, true, but not all of them. For me, the Western Heartlands, Dragon Coast, and to a lesser extent the Savage Frontier/the North are still open for exploration, but many other areas have little to offer if I want to go exploring-they've been civilized too long.
5) Canon. This is an issue entirely dependent on the DM and players and a gripe I've heard from a few gamers over the years. The Realms is backed by a long line of novels. Much of the material in those novels becomes an official part of FR continuity. If you're running a campaign and a novel suddenly 'rewrites' history, you have to decide what to do about it. My general answer is 'your campaign, your history'. But I can understand that frustration too. In the end, though, does it matter who foiled the latest Zhentarim plot? In your campaign, it was your PCs. Over here, it was these two Harpers.
6) Gods. Why are there 100+ gods? I mean, we're almost to the point of having deities of TP! And with all these gods, why can't any of their priests become powerful enough to actually rate up there with all these wizards?
These are just a few of the comments I've heard that might come under the heading of 'Realms-bashing'. There are some valid points here. I hope not to have offended anyone with this long ramble, and I apologize if I have. As I've said, I still love the place, but even I have made comments about Toril needing work. Perhaps this will add a little insight into the trend of bashing.
|
I'm not a realms basher but i wouldn't want to play in the realms with realms fans if I was DM. When I DM I want it to be my world even if someone else wrote the adventure.
A tangent.
I once came up with a Boot-hill adventure involving a Predator alien. A hot, hot summer with mysterious killings and the heroes find themselves battling something strange and invisible. I kept the true plot a secret so it revealed just like the movies with my freinds only at the end realizing they weren't in a western, they were in a Predator movie. It worked great.
Except... except that one of the players, when the alien was revealed and his character was shot, yelled at me "Their guns don't work like that" and literally stormed out of my apartment in disgust after giving a semi technical reason why my design was wrong for a "true" predator.
Except that I wrote the adventure, designed the alien gun stats and yes, they did work like that. It was my game. My world.
My chief problem with FR is that the setting has had so many cooks and so many fans. The setting has been so detailed that there is the potential to anger FR fans who don't like your interpretation of their favorite world. Moreover, because the timeline keeps progressing quite relentlessly in FR and some of the storyline presented is quite world-altering. If your game goes a certain way you have the very real problem of messing up continuity if you buy other material later.
I like Kingdom of Kalamar as a game world better because the material sold by Kenzer is static. If I want to create my own adventures (which I do) I don't have to worry about some future supplement contradicting me.
While I don't exactly bash Realms I am not that enthustiatic about it either...for many reasons mentioned here. It seems to me a lot like everything-and-kitchen-sink world where absolutely everything can be found somewhere with little actual consideration how everything fits together. And not a fan of Drizzt, Elminster or high magic in general.
There are small parts here and there I am interested in but Realms as a whole I tend to ignore...
Not a fan of Greyhawk, either...
|
|
Others have brought up good points, I think, about problems people have with FR - way too much magic, uber-powerful NPCs, etc. I think these are all legitimate beefs.
My one big problem with FR is the endless supply of powerful organizations. Sometimes it seems you can't throw a rock without hitting some agent of the Harpers/Zhentarim/Cult of the Dragon/Church of Shar/latest power group dujour. It get's annoying. I'm still waiting for them to introduce the Order of the Flummph.
|
|
I try not to bash the Forgotten Realms. While I personally don't like it, I know that others do. And there are certainly some legitimate reasons for liking it.
As for me, I haven't played in a very successful campaign in the Realms, though I've tried a few times. The games just didn't speak to me. I didn't have much fun, even though the DM knows his stuff.
I have a particularly hard time accepting the actions of high level NPCs and Gods in the game world. When I start playing my 1st level character, I like to feel that I'm becoming someone in the world. Since my favorite area of play is level 5-9 I never get that feeling in the Realms. You see, if you're 9th level, there will certainly be a lot of people of a higher level than you are, but they're scattered. You're probably about the level of the Duke that you worked for back when you were 1st level.... In the realms when you're 9th level, it feels like you're not quite a rat dropping, but you're still a long way from 'looked up to'.
I really just don't like the interaction of all the gods. It relates to my first point, but it also goes farther. In the real world, I believe in God. Sometimes it isn't easy. But in the Realms what's the point in worshipping a God when they're so 'in your face' all the time. It actually feels like a Soap Opera to me. Sort of a Mount Olympus, but 100x more since it happens so 'fast'. If the only thing keeping the gods from doing their thing is other gods (cause I don't see Ao doing much to stop it) what's the point of trying to do anything when you're 1st level. Just let the gods do what they want, and you'll be pretty much okay.
|
|
I already did introduce the Order of the Flumph.
That aside, I like the Realms, and I like it a lot. Perhaps I'm simply easily amused, but the novels for the realms usually have exactly what I want in a short fantasy novel: action and magical explosions. A great read on a crowded weekend schedule. As for playing there, my first true successful campaign was in the realms, and I was playing an almost Drizzt clone (being fighter/tempest). I made the nod to the stereotype by having the character adjudicate his actions on what he thought Drizzt would do.
It was my second favorite setting, next to Eberron, but now with Pathfinder out, Golarion has taken the #1 spot, and pushed the others down accordingly.
What can I say? If I want high-magic hijinks, I turn to the Realms. If I want political fantasy intrigue, I turn to Eberron. If I want Godlike power, I turn to Exalted.
|
|
For me, it's the fact that every time there's a new edition of D&D, the Realms has to undergo some sort of catastrophic realignment to account for the changes in the magic system/creature types/classes.
IMO campaign setting and rules should be separate beings. If the rules change, then you just use the "flashy thing" and that's the way it has always been in the campaign setting. Gods don't need to go to war on the prime material every time a spell or game mechanic is altered.
Other than that, it's an okay setting with lots of areas to play in. My group loves the Thay/Unther/Mulhorand/Wizard's Reach area. Lots of great plot hooks there!
Just about every reason I had has already been said. 30th level NPCs with dozens of novels written about them, piles and piles of source material and way too many gods. For my players (who are much more casual about this than me and only really own the PHB) there's just too much background to slog through. That being said, I've recently gotten more interested in running a Realms game; but not in Waterdeep or the Dales region. I ordered a used copy of Unapproachable East since it looks like a more interesting locale and I'm looking forward to perhaps making it Hypothetical Maybe Someday When I Have Time And Players Campaign #7.
I hate FR, 'cause it's more popular than Ravenloft.
I hate Eberron, 'cause it's more popular than Ravenloft.
I hate Dragonlance (now)because it makes druids worship a god to cast spells. There are already clerics that do that!
Okay, I'm obviously not convincing everyone. I'll explain. I don't like FR, because I just don't think it's flavorful enough.
I don't like Eberron, 'cause it's a little too 'steam punk' for me. i don't like the 'magic=technology' thing.
And I used to like Dragonlance, but really, it was 'cause of the kender and the novels. I first realized how dumb it was when I saw that pretty much everybody had to worship a god save mystics and sorcerers. They ruined one of my favorite classes, the druid.
When I read the FRCS, I can see a lot of the points people are making above, but at the same time, I think I see ways to work around it. In the end, I typically hold a favorable opinion of the Realms; I think I might like to try running a game there sometime. But that word, try, is critical. I don't think I could do it, primarily for three reasons:
1. Straight-jacket effect. I just can't get into the world enough if I don't feel completely free to make everything about it the way I want. If I make rampant changes, I wonder why I bothered using that setting in the first place. I could have made my own, heavily influenced by the published one, in just about as much time, and had more fun likely.
2. Overly generic. I think the Realms stands as an extremely good example of "typical" D&D. Perhaps even moreso than Greyhawk, from what I hear- the Realms seem to be more in line with the whiz-bang direction most supplements have taken, as opposed to Greyhawk, which I have always heard of as being a very gritty setting (since the early 90s). But I'm really not in a position to comment on that, and it's tangental. Anyway, I crave coherent and fully integrated backgrounds. That goes for everything, but especially races (Where do they come from, live, and interact? What is their psychology, culture, religion, architecture like?) and deities (I don't like thrown-together, "loose" pantheons). I know the Realms has at least a nod towards addressing these issues, but it's not enough for me (and I don't like the direction they go with it).
3. Familiarity. There's too much of the Realms! It makes starting a campaign there intimidating, because there's so much stuff floating around. I like homebrewing- I know where everything is, who everyone is, etc. I designed them, so there's no question of how to portray them, what they're like, what they're all about, etc. It's the difference between being in your own home and staying at a friend's.
I like FR. Why? Because the history of some of the places, the people that live there and the cool organizations that call it home. Mainly the Sword Coast/North all the way east to the desert of Aunaroch is my 'playing field' and so far I've entertained two groups in it for about a year.
As for the novels. Meh, my campaign, my history, my rules. If the fanboys want to play a true FR campaign they can go and play by themselves.
Heck, I even play a LARP character that comes from the FR, Neverwinter to be precise and yes, I've seen a 'good drow' player crop up once. Then again that player was stuck in a drow house that was fully evil and was trying very hard to hide it. So...
For Neverwinter and the Lord's Alliance!
Well, matter of factly, I cannot say too much about other settings, as I virtually never touched Greyhawk, Birthright or the other D&D settings. I do have a bit of experience in Earthdawn and the German version of D&D, i.e. DSA (Das Schwarze Auge / The Black Eye), as well as Eberron.
I essentially started with the Realms and still hold them dear. I can understand why people get annoyed with some of its features and cannot understand the Ragnageddon which is planned for the 4E Realms.
The Realms as a setting and it's bashers look to me like a football club (I'm speaking of the game with the ball at the players' feet, just in case) and their supporters. They were developed over 30odd years, catering to the demands at the time, no matter whether these were the demands of the designers, the publisher or the players. The pattern in the early 90s seemed plain enough: provide a large game place with a setting for fantasy middle age Europe-, Inka/Maya-, desert-, nomadic- and far eastern-style games.* It didn't take off and over the course of the last decade, the Realms were moved back to a more original middle age high fantasy setting. High Fantasy, btw., does include lots of mages. I never ever felt the weight of those thousands of mages looking over my shoulder as a DM or player either. For the current Realms cover 20odd million square miles of space to play in and to enjoy. You will - if you care to look - always find a place to suit your needs, whether this means barren lands with half an orc every few miles, or a bustling city full of mages and the like.
Gods? Too many? Why? Plenty is good! The Romans had 140 deities, the Greeks too, the Celts more than 400. What's bad about that? Too much choice? Come on! If you make your drivers licence, you don't stop driving just because you are suddenly facing the tough choice of which car to buy! The greater the choice, the better. No-one forces you to read all entries about each and every god. But as much as a wizard studies all those 1000 spells he gets in 3RE, a cleric can start studying a few more than the hardcore-FR big gun deities.
Why the football remark? Well, fans tend to be on a high or bitterly disgruntled during their course of support. You have bad seasons and players, and you have good ones. Usually, people only remember the good ones and the good games. If you start asking for all the wrong things though - bungs, scandals, you name it - people will start up a list that wrenches your gut in no-time. But that is not exactly what makes up the history of or the feelings for a club. There will always be good times and bad times and as with my footie, so I go with the Realms: I take what I need, enjoy the good times and try to leave the bad ones behind to the best of my ability. I have no problem ignoring a few dozen chosen that MIGHT happen by, or the gut-wrenching 5:1 drubbing my team suffered 56 months ago. It is the joy of the game that makes me like the FR or my footie team and watch/play it. and so far, I have not met a setting that gave/gives me so much fun like the Realms, nor a team that is better than the Rangers. That is not to say I am not open to new things, changes, or new horizons, of course.
*You see, Eberron is actually not that different. You get a patchwork of dragon-, elven-, psifolk- and giant-/(not really) drow- continents instead of your Kara-turs, Mazticas or Evermeets.
Probably because there's been some inconsistencies (to say the least) between books and version, and there is a lot of material to be had. A lot. Having finished up my epic FR campaign that's been running for three years, that started with one FR book (the main book), in 3.0, to having a stack of books a couple feet high, and all that accompanying material, the change to 3.5, the "attempt" to integrate the novels into the setting material...it can be overwhelming. So many of the new books invalidate things that I ruled on, so I ignored the RAW in the FR books, skipped over stuff, whatever, to run the campaign how I saw fit. Does every FR DM do this? I hope so. I would hate to think that DMs are incapable of saying, "You know, I really don't like how they portrayed Caladnei's relationship with Alusair, so I'm going to keep them working together instead of this quasi-paranoia they've set up."
As I've said before, some canon needs to be shot out of a cannon. Just because it's written does not mean you need to be beholden to it in your game.
I happen to like Forgotten Realms but definately agree that it has some issues that get annoying sometimes. For the most part I think that if you ignore the novels and tweak a few things it can be a really fun place to play.
That being said my two biggest gripes with Forgotten Realms are:
- I hate having the existence and governance of magic tied to a particular god (Mystra or Shar). I don't like the idea that killing a god=killing magic so I usually make Mystra the goddess who represents magic instead of the goddess who controls magic.
- I also dislike the fact that for the most part all of the races except human and elves are unimportant. The only races doing important things seem to be elves and humans and I don't like that.
I've already made changes to fix some of the problems/issues people have with the setting. All of the high level NPCs are either too busy fighting/countering each other (Elminster, Khelbun) to have any significant influence, too busy worrying about their kingdoms (Szass Tam and Simbul) or I killed them off at some point(Drizzt at the very beginning, several of the seven sisters, and a bunch of the harpers and Zhents). Killing off Drizzt was a decision that my group took particular delight in and I got several high-fives for it.
Several of the organizations have suffered from internal strife and dissension (mostly the Harpers and the Zhents) which as weakened them and some of the nations have been taken over/absorbed (some of it due to player actions).
Those are just a few of the tweaks I have made over the couple of campaigns I ran there.
NB: I thing I did not mention above - novels. It is a fact that many FR novels are best sellers* and as such you would be surprised if they would not be included in the setting - especially if they cover important persons or events.
The problem is that sometimes these novels take up a) a far greater publicity than they ought to and b ) more importance when it comes to pushing events forward than sourcebooks.
With regard to "a)", just take a look at Drizzt. He's got novels galore and people apparently have a lot of fun reading his trials and tribulations. But to me, he always remained that loner renegade drow up there in as unimportant a stretch of the Realms you can find. I mean, if I want to find out about vampires or the U.S.A., I don't solely look through the "Buffy - The Vampire Slayer"'s glasses, do I?
B ) ... well, there was a time when FR novels featured some heroic tales of some minor characters, people who would not change the Realms as such. That focus is still there, but over the course of the last few years, trilogies have been released shedding more light on Realms-shaking events. That - of course - goes hand in hand with an annoying wait till such a trilogy finishes. (Archwizards, Last Mythal, The Haunted Lands, Lady Penitent ... and WotSQ just takes the biscuit.) On the same note, sourcebooks covering or updating certain stretches have become quite rare - well, if you consider that some of the designers already knew about 4E and probably Spellplague, there's no wonder - on hindsight.
In any case, you probably have to weigh up the monetary gains from all things FR here too. After all, WotC have to sell to survive and they will - as all business do - keep the cash cows well fed. So we will have to "endure" a few more Drizzt novels, whether we like him or not.**
BTW, I was somewhat "impressed" last night. A friend of mind has acquired all sourcebooks that there are on Eberron - in its relatively short existence - and seeing them books all stacked up I would hazard a guess that they already have overtaken the 3E/3RE sourcebooks on the Realms published since 2000. No wonder the novels have taken over the Realms ...
*Then again you wonder what does it not malke onto the NYT Bestseller List, don't you? No disrespect whatsoever, but sometimes ...
** Worst thing that actually happened with the revelations in The Orc King was the fact that Drizzt will live in-setting for another 100 years. (Takes a bit of a spoiler note, don't it? I mean, we all know now that the chap is essentially bullet-proof in all the next dozen novels ...)
Sheer volume of fiction.
While enriching the setting, it also hinders players and DMs alike.
A couple have already touched on it -- FR is defined more by the actions of the books' protagonists and villains than by gamers and their adventures. It can leave a bad taste in gamers' mouths, deserved or not.
In contrast, Greyhawk's PCs are the indisputable champions of their world -- no books means no competition (we're not going to acknowledge the garbage that was published). Of course, since books weren't successfully spun off, TSR/WotC didn't see a profitable future for the setting :(
Yeah, I'm a GH fanboy. But I'll quickly say that FR, while not the default setting of D&D, is deservedly the dominant one.
I can't speak intelligently to any other settings, though.
My two cents :)
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8
|
IMHO
Forgotten Realms as a campaign setting seems, as some have stated: too mapped with no space left for the PCs, PCs are unimportant until "epic" (15th+) level, magic is a fundamental part of life for everyone (doesn't every housewife have +1 Broom of Sweeping), Epic NPCs constantly swooping and save the day when the dummy PCs screw up or do anything right, stealing the PCs thunder and telling them how they could have done it easier, or Epic NPCs telling PCs to go take care of problems for them because they are too busy smoking. This is not even opinions formed from playing FR, but if you read many of the non-Drizzt novels this is what happens to the characters (Curse of the Azure Bonds, Harpers Novels, etc). I realize that you don't have to have that happen as a DM, but many do. If I were to ever run FR, it'd be after a cataclysmic event which wiped out a majority of NPCs. As Grog Shakespear once said, "When the revolution comes, first we'll kill Drizzt".
Aside from that, Forgotten Realms as a novel based setting is alright in my book; except for the increasing prevalence of Drow, good Drow, Drizzt in every day life. People talk about Drizzt's mom being the meanest or worst Drow, what about Eclavadra? (Greyhawk, she was a pain in everyone's A$$).
I usually run a campaign setting of my own design, where I can pick and choose ideas from any number of fluff, crunch, grey matter sources as I wish, and do. My preferred published setting to run, is Ravenloft; in the style following Domains of Dread, with native PCs. My preferred published setting to play in is Blackmoor; Dave Arneson's Blackmoor MMRPG, especially as played at cons, seems to have the best mix (for myself at least) of story based-gaming, sword and sorcery adventure, magical might within reason, higher NPCs (maybe 10th level) who are out doing what needs to be done and are found sometimes leading other but aren't uber-powerful themselves.
Most recently, I had started getting Dungeon (I rarely/never use prepublished modules when I run), but found that I would like to run the Savage Tide Adventure path, and still more recently, once the Rise of the Runelords AP is completed I would run that as well. Major props to Paizo, creating a new setting is tough, especially one which a large group enjoys, I definitely see Golarion becoming one such fan favorite.
I'm more of an Eberron person myself.
From what I've seen of the Realms I just don't find the setting intriguing (the whole Drizzt thing doesn't help). I prefer the grittier, lower-level feel of Eberron (there are some facets I'm not so fond of). To me it's seemed like the Realms were set up for high level/epic level play, which I'm none to fond of. Also it seems like there are a proliferation of high-level NPCs who are the major shakers and movers of the world, while in Eberron the PCs are among the most powerful mortals around by 12th level or so. I don't like to have ultra-high level NPCs unless they're villians. Ultimately it comes down to the feel of a setting and I simply don't care for the feel of FR that I've gotten from my admittedly limited experience.
I may find out that i do like the Realms; the only FR games I've played in was a PbP (which I had to drop out of early on) and another PbP that was poorly planned and poorly DMed (it was a nightmare) so I might find that I like the Realms just fine if I ever play in a good campaign long enoguh to get a feel for them.
I try not to bash the Realms, I simply don't care for what I've seen and heard of them. Each to their own.
Aside from that, Forgotten Realms as a novel based setting is alright in my book; except for the increasing prevalence of Drow, good Drow, Drizzt in every day life. People talk about Drizzt's mom being the meanest or worst Drow, what about Eclavadra? (Greyhawk, she was a pain in everyone's A$$).
As I said before ... make sure that you do not mix up "number of novel volumes published" with "importance to the setting". Drizzt is very much a cult hero amongst the novel readers (and heroic apprentice gamers maybe), but within the setting, he's virtually a non-entity. Same with the WotSQ thing ... the whole six-book series was important to the drow, but the rest of Faerûn hardly noticed. And this hardly already includes the CotSQ campaign.
I was actually somewhat surprised to see Artemis listed amongst the vilesto fo the vilest in one of the latest Dragons, right next to said Eclavdra, Manshoon, Igglwiv, Iuz, LOLTH (!) and what have you. For the assassin is just a single character who is hardly in the shakers-and-movers union like the others mentioned there. Warped perspectives, IMHO.
|
|
I'm curious: what specifically turns you off about (FR)?Well, QXL99, does all that answer your question?
I'm curious why people like it, novels aside, as a gaming setting?
It rocks. Love the detail, love the maps. Elminster is cool; a good DM can control PC interaction with named NPCs. And the novels give a player that sense of verismilitude; of being in a REAL world.
|
|
I dislike FR for only a few reasons.
First I prefer fantasy based upon mystery and exploration. There are no blank places on the FR map.
The technology is too high for my tastes.
The politics is ruled my nation states, not city states.
It is adolescent fantasy magic with pointy hats for wizards and such.
Good-Evil Law-Chaos no grey areas.
And the number one reason for disliking FR is there are about 10,000,000 books out there for it so a DM can't do anything without violating canon somewhere and there is just no mystery left.
I dislike FR for only a few reasons.
First I prefer fantasy based upon mystery and exploration. There are no blank places on the FR map.
The technology is too high for my tastes.
The politics is ruled my nation states, not city states.
It is adolescent fantasy magic with pointy hats for wizards and such.
Good-Evil Law-Chaos no grey areas.
And the number one reason for disliking FR is there are about 10,000,000 books out there for it so a DM can't do anything without violating canon somewhere and there is just no mystery left.
Same here. Its one of the things that I like about Eberron; there are a lot of unexplored places and unexplained mysteries and tehre are so many gray areas, that a DM can take advantage of.
The politics is ruled my nation states, not city states.
It is adolescent fantasy magic with pointy hats for wizards and such.
Not trying to be argumentative here, but:
When I look at the map of the Realms, I see just as many city-states as nation-states; perhaps more, or more influential ones.
Additionally, I find it odd you describe "pointy hats for wizards" as "adolescent," since that's a very classic appearance for the archetype (see: Gandalf), and much of the artwork I see for the Realms now feature mages in quite diversified apparel, with very few pointy hats at all, really. At any rate, I somewhat like that image of wizards- like I said, it has a classic feel to it.
To each their own.
The politics is ruled my nation states, not city states.
It is adolescent fantasy magic with pointy hats for wizards and such.
Not trying to be argumentative here, but:
When I look at the map of the Realms, I see just as many city-states as nation-states; perhaps more, or more influential ones.
Additionally, I find it odd you describe "pointy hats for wizards" as "adolescent," since that's a very classic appearance for the archetype (see: Gandalf), and much of the artwork I see for the Realms now feature mages in quite diversified apparel, with very few pointy hats at all, really. At any rate, I somewhat like that image of wizards- like I said, it has a classic feel to it.
To each their own.
I'm rather fond of the pointy-hat wizard as well. I don't think that its an overdone archetype the way elves are, theres just something right about point-hatted wizards.
|
|
I'm curious: what specifically turns you off about the setting?
It's hard to say for me. First, I'd like to say that if I ever offended someone with why I didn't like FR, I didn't mean to. FR players don't bother me in the least. Exalted players do.
Okay, why do I not like Realms. Well, I started in Realms, but could never find a deity I liked. Though I did find the world interesting...
... until I actually started reading it. Either there was too much, or perhaps it just didn't pop for me. Or maybe I just really hate that Drow are seen as CG males who are emo. At least, that's what it was to me.
Also, I'm a huge Greyhawk/Varisia/Eberron fan, which deals more so with country identity somewhat. Who knows, but the Realms aren't for me.
Not that I usually bash it.
I am a bit at a loss with people saying that they cannot find "empty" spaces within the Realms, i.e. those 20odd million square miles which make up "Faerûn". Furthermore, there are a few so-called Terrae Icognitae which can be used be DMs to their hearts' content too, or, if need be, a simple switch back in time (say 5,000 years) too.
I placed my Night Below campaign in northern Impiltur, the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil in eastern Damaara without much problem.
Eberron's empty spaces are presumably there because they had not enough time to fill them as yet. As I said, you get about as many Eberron sourcebooks as you get 3E FR books. Wait another 10 years and rest assured, people will cry out for a new setting.
A game world simply has to develope over time in- and out of setting, for it would simply not realistic to have people using magic and flying on dragonback while leaving vast stretches of land unexplored for more than ... FR timescale ... 25,000odd years.
I used to be a big FR fan.
That changed when I read what they are going to do to the Setting in order to hammer the (square shaped) Realms block into the (round) 4e rules hole.
We don't know that much about the changes, but what we know makes me sick. It is actually summed up as "The old world dies" and the birth of the new world apparently isn't a joyous occasion.
The final straw with FR for me was in a novel.
I think it was the more recent 'Realms of the Elves' I think. It was an anthology that was tied in somewhat with the Last Mythal Trilogy. In it was a story in which Larloch briefly confronted some of the Seven Sisters.
If you are a FR fan, you should know who Larloch is.
In dialogue with Ed Greenwood, he disclosed that Larloch was essentially his Vecna of FR. He guestimated that Larloch should be about 45th-46th level. Note this does not match with that horrible writeup they gave Larloch in Lords of Darkness. His items were sure cool though.
In this story it is stated point blank, that Larloch would be immediately destroyed if he were contacted by even the briefest wisp of Silver Fire.
WTF!? Greenwoods Vecna...taken out like a punk if he put a step out of line? Not in my game worlds. I had already been dissatisfied with the imbalance of power and that the good guys seem to be everywhere and nearly always win. This was the final straw for me.
I don't dislike the setting per se, but as more and more things have been expanded, I've just been more and more disheartened by it. My two cents.
We are all aboleths.
Monsters out of time.
We remember the worlds as they were before this present age.
And we plot and plan and wait in the darkness for when the worlds can be re-made in our image.
How many subraces of elves are there in Faerun? There's the Moon elves (typical D&D elves), Drow elves, Sun elves, Wood elves, Wild elves and Winged elves. And Star elves. That's a lot for one race. It wouldn't be such an annoyance to me if it were just like human subraces; differences in hair color, skin tone, language, attitude. Yet, why do they each get different attribute bonuses/penalties? If their environment is responsible for the change, why aren't humans adapted the same way? Are the surface elves really all that different? Sun elves are supposedly the elitist wizardly elves, but don't moon elves fill a similar enough niche? Wood elves and wild elves seem pretty similar as well. Gnomes, halflings and dwarves don't benefit from nearly the same favoritism.
How many subraces of elves are there in Faerun? There's the Moon elves (typical D&D elves), Drow elves, Sun elves, Wood elves, Wild elves and Winged elves. And Star elves. That's a lot for one race. It wouldn't be such an annoyance to me if it were just like human subraces; differences in hair color, skin tone, language, attitude. Yet, why do they each get different attribute bonuses/penalties? If their environment is responsible for the change, why aren't humans adapted the same way? Are the surface elves really all that different? Sun elves are supposedly the elitist wizardly elves, but don't moon elves fill a similar enough niche? Wood elves and wild elves seem pretty similar as well. Gnomes, halflings and dwarves don't benefit from nearly the same favoritism.
Amen. The infatuation a lot of people seem to have with elves is more than a little annoying. I get irritated by the standard D&D elf stereotype enough as it is and I certainly don't need over half a dozen subraces with only minor differences running around.
Its another thing that I like about Eberron; the elves are different.
How many subraces of elves are there in Faerun? There's the Moon elves (typical D&D elves), Drow elves, Sun elves, Wood elves, Wild elves and Winged elves. And Star elves. That's a lot for one race. It wouldn't be such an annoyance to me if it were just like human subraces; differences in hair color, skin tone, language, attitude. Yet, why do they each get different attribute bonuses/penalties? If their environment is responsible for the change, why aren't humans adapted the same way? Are the surface elves really all that different? Sun elves are supposedly the elitist wizardly elves, but don't moon elves fill a similar enough niche? Wood elves and wild elves seem pretty similar as well. Gnomes, halflings and dwarves don't benefit from nearly the same favoritism.
This was actually exacerbated by 3.5. In 2nd edition you had Gold Elves (the same niche as Grey Elves in other settings), Moon elves (High elves in other settings), Green Elves or Wild Elves (Wild Elves from other settings), Lythari (which were suppose to be elven shapeshifters that where "kind of' like lycanthropes), and avariels (which ended up in Faerun because they were in the 2nd edition Complete Book of Elves during the time when "everything in AD&D is in FR.")
In 3.5, for some reason they never really explained, Wood Elves and Wild Elves became two separate species of elves, and Bruce Cordell (he of the 4th edition design team) created Star Elves and their side dimension of the Sidleyuir for the hell of it instead of presenting Aglarond as it had been presented before (which was more about connections to the Faerie Court and wild elves).
So its another problem created by the current designers that they have to "fix," not just by "fixing" what they introduced in 3.5, but by nuking half the setting and starting over.
This was actually exacerbated by 3.5. In 2nd edition you had Gold Elves (the same niche as Grey Elves in other settings), Moon elves (High elves in other settings), Green Elves or Wild Elves (Wild Elves from other settings), Lythari (which were suppose to be elven shapeshifters that where "kind of' like lycanthropes), and avariels (which ended up in Faerun because they were in the 2nd edition Complete Book of Elves during the time when "everything in AD&D is in FR.")In 3.5, for some reason they never really explained, Wood Elves and Wild Elves became two separate species of elves, and Bruce Cordell (he of the 4th edition design team) created Star Elves and their side dimension of the Sidleyuir for the hell of it instead of presenting Aglarond as it had been presented before (which was more about connections to the Faerie Court and wild elves).
So its another problem created by the current designers that they have to "fix," not just by "fixing" what they introduced in 3.5, but by nuking half the setting and starting over.
Ah, I see. I actually do like the Realms to an extent, it's just the extraneous/redundant stuff like this that spoils it for me.
I used to be a Forgotten Realms basher...I'm somewhat reformed now mainly because I LOVE FR fiction(provided it lacks Elminster and/or Drizzt) and I had a good game or two with a competant and professional DM and group, but it's the in-game over-the-top NPC's that turn me off- they're GREAT in a work of fiction, but their in-game stats make immature players feel like they have to compete, which ruins games.
The final straw with FR for me was in a novel.
I think it was the more recent 'Realms of the Elves' I think. It was an anthology that was tied in somewhat with the Last Mythal Trilogy. In it was a story in which Larloch briefly confronted some of the Seven Sisters.
If you are a FR fan, you should know who Larloch is.In dialogue with Ed Greenwood, he disclosed that Larloch was essentially his Vecna of FR. He guestimated that Larloch should be about 45th-46th level. Note this does not match with that horrible writeup they gave Larloch in Lords of Darkness. His items were sure cool though.
In this story it is stated point blank, that Larloch would be immediately destroyed if he were contacted by even the briefest wisp of Silver Fire.
WTF!? Greenwoods Vecna...taken out like a punk if he put a step out of line? Not in my game worlds. I had already been dissatisfied with the imbalance of power and that the good guys seem to be everywhere and nearly always win. This was the final straw for me.I don't dislike the setting per se, but as more and more things have been expanded, I've just been more and more disheartened by it. My two cents.
Exactly. Why would you need 45th level good guys if the bad guys are so weak? All those epic NPC good guys would be very, very bored...