I've heard quite a few people complain about the role playing and logistical aspects of the demihuman races. (For the non-grognards, that's all the non-human humanoids)
Too many gamers play elves like aristocratic humans and dwarves like taciturn conservative humans! If each demihuman race is really different from humanity in any significant way, how can we really know how to role play them? A group of elves moves to a different region and after a couple generations has become a completely new sub-species, and yet the most populous species of all, humans, are always just humans?! Every new splatbook that comes out seems to have more obscure races, but how are DMs supposed to integrate entire new races into their campaigns?
So what if demihumans weren't different races, but simply sub races of humanity? Then there would be no expectation to play an elf as an aloof super-hippie born-of-ancient-wisdom character or whatever. "Elves" would just be a group of people who live in the Weirding Wood and live in tree tents. They might have strong personality tendencies, but nothing beyond the experience of a decent role player.
What if certain areas warped any group of people who lived there? For example, any group who spends two or three generations living in the Redbond Peaks becomes shorter, broader and hairier and developes a fine sense of the metals and gems that riddle those peaks. Maybe a group of ancient archmages infused certain areas with this warping magic, maybe the gods have created these disturbances or maybe these areas possess this warping magic naturally. For whatever reason, these isolated areas change people and monsters who live there and provide the perfect excuse for humanity to remain the dominant race and yet have ample plausibility for however many other 'races' the DM needs.
So is this a good idea or is it just like painting a plum green and hoping for an apple?
I've heard quite a few people complain about the role playing and logistical aspects of the demihuman races. (For the non-grognards, that's all the non-human humanoids)
Too many gamers play elves like aristocratic humans and dwarves like taciturn conservative humans! If each demihuman race is really different from humanity in any significant way, how can we really know how to role play them? A group of elves moves to a different region and after a couple generations has become a completely new sub-species, and yet the most populous species of all, humans, are always just humans?! Every new splatbook that comes out seems to have more obscure races, but how are DMs supposed to integrate entire new races into their campaigns?
So what if demihumans weren't different races, but simply sub races of humanity? Then there would be no expectation to play an elf as an aloof super-hippie born-of-ancient-wisdom character or whatever. "Elves" would just be a group of people who live in the Weirding Wood and live in tree tents. They might have strong personality tendencies, but nothing beyond the experience of a decent role player.
What if certain areas warped any group of people who lived there? For example, any group who spends two or three generations living in the Redbond Peaks becomes shorter, broader and hairier and developes a fine sense of the metals and gems that riddle those peaks. Maybe a group of ancient archmages infused certain areas with this warping magic, maybe the gods have created these disturbances or maybe these areas possess this warping magic naturally. For whatever reason, these isolated areas change people and monsters who live there and provide the perfect excuse for humanity to remain the dominant race and yet have ample plausibility for however many other 'races' the DM needs.
So is this a good idea or is it just like painting a plum green and hoping for an apple?
It has merit if you want to get away from "typical" fantasy. I went with more of a Hyboria approach breaking humans into races/cultures even giving +1 -1 stats in certain areas as well as cold resistance for my vikings as well as sailing bonuses etc.
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David Weber's fantasy series explores this idea in War God's Oath. The races of man are those races who have split off of humanity because of a difference in the way they interact with the magic field of the world.
While Kingdoms of Kalamar did not give different ability score modifiers for their different branches of humanity, their Players's Handbook details different heights and weights for each of the branches of humanity common to their world.
YUUUK!
Sorry, that was rude. It has merit, as was said, but personally, I prefer normal D&D.
Shadowrun?
I agree that it sounds very interesting from a roleplaying stand point, but my main question is how does it change your game to act on this assumption? In the current version of the game one can't prove that what you propose isn't already the case. The dwarves really ARE just short humans. It's not their fault that the records that they keep of their history don't extend far enough back to record this.
Are you trying to get your players to roleplay the characters differently? Do they not "act" dwarven enough? Or too much?
Are you trying to get your players to roleplay the characters differently? Do they not "act" dwarven enough? Or too much?
Nah, I've never had a problem with how players role play the races even if they do it badly. This idea is mostly a thought experiment for me; the only result that would really excite me would be that I could create a race of elves that are what they should be in my mind--perfect and Tolkienesque--without limiting players from playing the 'graceful' PC archetype. (the set of stats from the PHB that we call elves would be called something else, while elves would be a powerful 'monstrous' race mostly under the DM's purview)
It's a fine idea, I think and from a "fluff" perspective it can make an interesting campaign secret. The DMG2 kind of addresses this idea for its discussion of low magic games; rather than inherently strange and magical races like elves and dwarves there are just humans with those mechanical attributes.
As far as the roleplaying issue, I think the ultimate implausibility comes purely from a longevity standpoint. How do you accurately roleplay a character with upwards of three times a mortal lifespan? Dwarves and gnomes are typically in their fifties when they start adventuring and most elves are over a century old at the beginning of their careers. There will be a change in psychology and as beings that only live a century at most, how can we understand that? And how can those cultures and that mindset really reflect that? I don't have an answer, really and I doubt anyone really does. So maybe just bringing all of them into human stock with human lifespans can make things a little easier if everyone is scratching their head.
On the other hand, how different can they really be? Everyone needs to eat, drink and sleep to survive. Regardless of race, class or anything you want to be comfortable and have shoes that fit (maybe a good clean pair of underwear). And any adventuring character is probably a bit more cosmopolitan than most examples of their race, so they may just be more "human" to reflect that shift in attitude.
It's a fine idea, I think and from a "fluff" perspective it can make an interesting campaign secret. The DMG2 kind of addresses this idea for its discussion of low magic games; rather than inherently strange and magical races like elves and dwarves there are just humans with those mechanical attributes.
I remember skimming that bit of text and not liking it because it forces the DM and/or player to come up with a new excuse every time a player wants to use demihuman stats. I mean c'mon, how many wandering witches bless little boys and girls with all the random traits that make up elf stats?
As far as the roleplaying issue, I think the ultimate implausibility comes purely from a longevity standpoint.
On a related note, how do you properly role play an ancient archmage of the human variety?
On a related note, how do you properly role play an ancient archmage of the human variety?
Amazingly if you must ask.
In the beginning of true fantasy, elves were the immortal little people, though sometimes elves were tall faeries with hollow backs. Later, though, J. J. R. Tolkien created his own variation of elves: They were tall, immortal, yes, but they were not of neither seelie nor unseelie. It was likely that, with the role of Orlando Bloom as an elf, everybody's opinion of elves began to change. Suddenly, there were books all over with tall elves in them. The Great Tree of Avalon, and, more well known, the Inheritance Trilogy. However, before both of these were created, D&D was.
And then 3rd edition came, and then 3.5.
It is likely that, what with the growing popularity of elves, the creators of our beloved game decided that, quite contrary to the Lord of the Rings trilogy, they would bring the elves power down so that they could play an elf. They also made about 10 subraces. You wanna play an elf in the woods? Okay, take the wood elf. You wanna play an elf underwater? Get an aquatic elf. This was a cheap move, but it was clever. Now, my opinion is this: D&D is only popular because of that clever move.
This discussion makes me wonder about half-breeds. Isn't one factor in species differentiation inter-breedability? So, what's the deal with half-elves, half-orcs, but no half orc- half elves? Then there's the derro, which for some reason just make me queasy.
I've always thought the Human entry in the Monster Manual should have a passage, "Humans fecund and magical nature allows them to cross-breed with virtually any creature...." I try not to think about the ramification of that statement too hard.
Shadowrun?
I was gonna say it but you beat me eric. You always beat me!! *shows bruises*
anywho yeah in Shadowrun the metahumans all came from humans but the elves still are hippies who claim to know everything and live forever oh and are secretive jerks (as a whole)never trust an elf and never deal with a dragon
and it only takes one shot to geek a mage
This discussion makes me wonder about half-breeds. Isn't one factor in species differentiation inter-breedability? So, what's the deal with half-elves, half-orcs, but no half orc- half elves? Then there's the derro, which for some reason just make me queasy.
I've always thought the Human entry in the Monster Manual should have a passage, "Humans fecund and magical nature allows them to cross-breed with virtually any creature...." I try not to think about the ramification of that statement too hard.
There are multiple ways to define a species, as my Conservation Bio teacher stated. Not all of them forbid interbreeding, otherwise there'd be a total of 2 oak species on earth, the rest would be mutts.
But that idea of the human entry stating that they can breed with anything? That's priceless!
LOL
I've always felt that LOTR did a tremendous disservice to DM's and game designers and other storytellers in that it gave people an unrealistic opinion of the power level and effectiveness of heroic people. Legolas was chosen to be in the Fellowship because he was young enough to put up with non-elves. Dudes, he was over 1,000 years old. The archery they showed him doing, where he killed two people with one arrow, or stabbed somebody with one, then drew and fired and killed an orc? The bit in The Two Towers where he was able to mount, blind, a horse that was at a full gallop? Killing the oliphaunt? All of these are totally in keeping with the kind of things somebody should be doing in heroic fantasy... if he had 1,000 years to practice his quickdraw. And, bear in mind, Legolas was a >child< by Elrond & Galadriel's reckoning.
How many of these things should a 47-year-old elf be able to do? Not so many, I don't think.
So, how do you roleplay a newbie elf, given the thundering might of ability walking around Rivendell?
I've always thought the Human entry in the Monster Manual should have a passage, "Humans fecund and magical nature allows them to cross-breed with virtually any creature...." I try not to think about the ramification of that statement too hard.
Don't forget that those pesky dragons tend to breed with anything and everything they see, as evidenced by all those half-dragon villains in all of those adventures.
Hmmmmm......Maybe dragons really are humans. Or humans really are dragons.
Maybe dragons really are humans. Or humans really are dragons.
Maybe they're just really horny.
Are you trying to get your players to roleplay the characters differently? Do they not "act" dwarven enough? Or too much?Nah, I've never had a problem with how players role play the races even if they do it badly. This idea is mostly a thought experiment for me; the only result that would really excite me would be that I could create a race of elves that are what they should be in my mind--perfect and Tolkienesque--without limiting players from playing the 'graceful' PC archetype. (the set of stats from the PHB that we call elves would be called something else, while elves would be a powerful 'monstrous' race mostly under the DM's purview)
Love it Tequila...this is how elves in my world are portrayed for the most part. I have Tolkien elves and I like the Midgard Dwarves out of the source book that's name just escaped me "Frost something or other " gah..i hate brain farts
I think I'll use idea when I DM my one-shot for Paizo NYC, since none of the group has posted. It'll be fun to find out how many of them read my threads ;)
So then, do you define orcs and hobgoblins as sub-races of humans or not?
Anything useable as a PC would likely be sub-human (no pun intended), while human-ish races with racial HD would likely be sub-something else. There'd likely be a truckload of sub-giant races...come to think of it, I think all giants are sub-giants.
Oh ... and would this now make all monstrous humanoids really just Animals with the "Half-Human" Template?
Nah, I'll save the Half-Human template for those unfortunate commoners that get critted by large two handed weapons.
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I've toyed with the idea of three big humanoid families - Homo, Olvo, and Goblo. The Homo family rises from some Neanderthal caveman folk and now includes humans, dwarves (who went underground at some point), and giants (who made made pacts with ancient elemental evils). I don't know where the Olvo family comes from but it includes elves, drow, and halflings (i.e., prairie elves). And the Goblo family comes from some orc-like thing. Modern orcs are a dead end, but hobgoblins are the success story in this family. Goblins are degenerate freaks used as slaves and bugbears are jumbo goblins bred for size and strength. Finally, ogres would be an orc/giant cross prone to mutations and deformities (i.e., ettins), and gnomes would be a halfling/dwarf cross (gully dwarves anyone? but tinkers not buffoons).
Hey, I was a bio major in college. Evolution is fun for me.
One point to note here...in both fantasy and SF, the various non human humanoid races have tended to act as an allegory either for a specific culture or a general philosophy/ideal/viewpoint from a range of human cultures so this creates at times a mono focus in the description of the culture-Dwarves being mining focused etc. But humans are shown at their full diversity but if we were living next to different species in RL we would probably find that the individuals of those species could be just as divergent in their viewpoints as any humans. Also the species issue isn't necessarily clear cut. Some mules and other interspecies hybrids are or can be fully fertile so that will complicate arguments if you drag in RL information to make a case. Also with subraces one idea that I like is to instead make them hybrids: wood elves as elf orc hybrids, wild elves as elf dwarf hybrids, etc. These use ability score adjustments as a start point to determine which races would form what.
This discussion makes me wonder about half-breeds. Isn't one factor in species differentiation inter-breedability? So, what's the deal with half-elves, half-orcs, but no half orc- half elves? Then there's the derro, which for some reason just make me queasy.
I've always thought the Human entry in the Monster Manual should have a passage, "Humans fecund and magical nature allows them to cross-breed with virtually any creature...." I try not to think about the ramification of that statement too hard.
With the elf orc hybrids, most of the time in D&D elves and orcs hate each other and try to kill each other on sight. Otherwise (Eberron-maybe other settings) they aren't anywhere near each other and would not really have the opportunity, although look at my post above for subraces as hybrids for inspiration if you like.
Heh, Tequila you always come up with interesting questions...
In reference to James' point about longevity, the average lifespan of Australian Aborigines and Papuans is pretty short: 40s or 50s. It's a curious feeling to think that the Aboriginal kids I went to school with have an average of 10-20 years left, and I'll probably live to be 80 or older barring accidents. It's really sad, and a whole lot of other mixed feelings with it like guilt and perhaps a feeling of being lucky or blessed. Maybe that's what it's like for a Dwarf who is friends with humans. As for an elf, I think it would be very hard to even consider things like humans as being sentient creatures on a par with you. They would have the lifespan of a rabbit or guinea pig in comparison to yours.
the elves still are hippies who claim to know everything and live forever oh and are secretive jerks (as a whole)
This is an awesomely accurate description of typical fantasy elves.
I always thought it was funny how the Elves in Shadowrun took over whole nations and then made up fake histories for themselves that connected them with things like spirits and the Tuatha De Danaan. It seemed like a very human thing to do, kind of like how the early Wiccans claimed that Wicca had been secretly passed down since pre-Christian times, and people who practice Ninjutsu often claim to have secret knowledge passed down from ancient days.
"So how come there's no proof of your ninja heritage?"
"It was kept a secret! Duh!"
"Riiiiight."
We actually have several topics discussed here, all of which I find interesting.
One, as far as role-playing goes, sometimes relying on stereotypes is handy, to throw out a single comment in a combat heavy session. Stereotypes, also gives beginners a place to *start roleplaying.*
Two, as far as all "demi-humans" being related, etc., I think is a good idea - at least it *is* an idea. Part of the problem with D&D is that it has no cosmology, no history, no inherent cohesion. How did elves & dwarves come to be in D&D? Well, they've always let YOU be the one to decide that, but if you've noticed, many DM's have never bothered to make that decision, and so, sometimes it seems that ol' Dave Hargrave's Arduin Grimoire and the mish-mash of craziness therien is D&D taken to it's furthest logical conclusion. Someone mentioned Shadowrun. An excellent example of a cohesive back-story, etc., for all races, monsters, you name it. I had ran a variant world I made (years ago) wherein humans were composed of 5 varieties (elves, dwarves, gnomes, trolls & ogres). You couldn't play a "human," or rather they were all human, etc.
Three, ah half-elves, half-orcs, half-breeds . . . half-assed. I'm sure I 've criticized them on these boards before. Not only do they not make any kind of biological sense, but they're not at all creative as concepts in and of themselves. Instead of inventing an entirely new race (or species or what have you), let's just make a half-breed, with half the stats - and we don't even have to come up with backstory! Brilliant? No, lazy.
Four, for me, the longevity problem is easily solved, but discarding the idea that elves (etc) have 150 year long childhoods. IMO, they should reach maturity at the same rate as humans, age very little for hundreds of years, and then spontaneously age at an alarming rate at the end of their life-cycle. PC's elves (or whatever), are therefore *young* elves (15-40, whatever). Tolkien's elves should be ignored for D&D, or otherwise recreated entirely. Stats would be something like: STR +0, DEX +2, CON +4 (plus elves are immune to disease), INT +2 (and they gain all the advantages of longevity, but no penalties), WIS +0, CHA +4.
My .02.
- FM
When it comes to role-playing demi-humans, it always seemed to me that the values and attitudes of each 'race' were based on European culture. Elves = French. Dwarves = Germans. Halflings = English/Welsh (until 3.x made them Gypsies). Gnomes = Swiss. Half-orcs = Goths/Vandals. Humans? They are the Americans, who find all Europeans exotic.