Why are the ogres being used to
They seem to be far too stupid and unskilled to produce useful results.
Well, offhand I'd say because they're being forced to. However, if you're asking "why would their mastermind put them to this kind of work?", think about this: Big M, the stone giant leader, is off training his troops. Now, if he wants every single solitary stone giant to be prepared to march and crush the foes of his lord and master, I'd definately find someone else to make my weapons. Are they the best quality stuff? No, but when you're Large-sized with a massive Strength score, that 2d8 greatsword the ogre made will cleave through little human guards with ease...
Creative Director
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Exactly. Ogres might be stupid, but they can certainly be used to craft servicable weapons for an army of giants. They don't need to be GREAT weapons... just better than parts of trees used as clubs.
Why are the ogres being used toSpoiler:make weapons[for the stone giants? /spoiler] They seem to be far too stupid and unskilled to produce useful results.Well, offhand I'd say because they're being forced to.So the ogres are being used to make weapons because they are being forced to make weapons?
Exactly. Ogres might be stupid, but they can certainly be used to craft servicable weapons for an army of giants. They don't need to be GREAT weapons... just better than parts of trees used as clubs.[Spoiler]
Also, remember that Barl Breakbones is kind of going against orders. He's taken a liking to being the boss, and is overextending his stay, so to speak. As long as he's in charge, the Kreegs are afraid of him and'll keep doing what he says. And the last thing he said was "build weapons."
Why do the stone giants think that a group of unskilled creatures with a -4 racial intelligence modifier would be able to create serviceable military gear? How are the ogres able to physically and mentally perform the skilled work required to forge arms and armor? I'm having trouble understanding how the inbred idiot creatures portrayed in the adventure are considered a plausible labor pool for the tasks required of them. Is it just a matter of the ogres being there? Why not also use the trolls? What made the ogres a viable choice?
I know you said that they don't have to make GREAT weapons, but I don't see how the Kreegs and company can make ANY forged weapons.
I know you said that they don't have to make GREAT weapons, but I don't see how the Kreegs and company can make ANY forged weapons.
1 in 400 rolls a natural 20?
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Creative Director
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Why do the stone giants think that a group of unskilled creatures with a -4 racial intelligence modifier would be able to create serviceable military gear? How are the ogres able to physically and mentally perform the skilled work required to forge arms and armor? I'm having trouble understanding how the inbred idiot creatures portrayed in the adventure are considered a plausible labor pool for the tasks required of them. Is it just a matter of the ogres being there? Why not also use the trolls? What made the ogres a viable choice?
I know you said that they don't have to make GREAT weapons, but I don't see how the Kreegs and company can make ANY forged weapons.
The giants think that ogres would make great infantry, and that's actually the main reason that they're recruiting the Kreegs. But the Kreegs also happen to live in a cave with lots of iron ore, and have some forges, so before they set off for the main army camp, the plan was to have them crank out a bunch of weapons.
They didn't use trolls because there weren't as many of them, and trolls are a lot harder to bully around than ogres.
As you'll see in Pathfinder 4, the Kreegs aren't the only army-prep thing going on—there's tribes all over the Storval Plateau gathering under Mokmurain's banner. Ogres, hill giants, ettins, stone giants, and more. The Kreegs are, in a lot of ways, a drop in the bucket.
So while ogres aren't the most gifted weapon makers in the world, they ARE there for Barl Breakbones to boss around. They have the tools. Given time (several months) they can crank out lots of servicable weapons. We don't give full stat blocks for the ogres who are working on the weapons since we didn't have room to stat up what would have basically been the same as the standard ogre from the Monster Manual stat block, but they do have four levels of barbarian. With the standard ogre barbarian intelligence of 8, that means they get 3 skill points per level. It's no big stretch to assume that they have ranks in Craft (weaponsmith) as a result, for up to a +11 bonus on the check They only need to roll a DC 12 to craft a simple weapon like a spear, which is a check such an ogre couldn't fail.
Again; the main use for the Kreegs is, of course, infantry for the war. Barl Breakbones is kind of shirking his duties, and in a way he's using the "CRAFT MORE WEAPONS, YOU OGRES!" thing as an excuse to keep playing King of Hook Mountain and put off returning to the main body of the army.
It's not unreasonable to assume that they have circumstance modifiers to their rolls as well: A familiarity bonus for making the same basic weapon types over and over, or a "masterwork tool" bonus for forges and equipment that are particularly suited to the tasks they are attempting. Given a few bonuses, even ogres can eventually get the idea.
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4 levels of giant + 4 levels of barbarian => ECL 8 => maxed out skill points = +11.
Intelligence 8 gives -1 = +10.
And then there's skill focus (+3), circumstance bonuses (+?), masterwork artisan tools (+2) and aid another (+2); all ready to give a little extra boost.
I'd go with masterwork tools (+12 in total) to meet a DC12 for simple weapons. Even when they failed on the DC15 check for martial weapons (1 in 10 chance of failure) they wouldn't fail by more than 5 so wouldn't ruin any raw materials and could just Try Again.
1 in 400 rolls a natural 20?
Whew, thems some mighty bad dice. You might wanna switch to a different d20. :P
4 levels of giant + 4 levels of barbarian => ECL 8 => maxed out skill points = +11.
Intelligence 8 gives -1 = +10.And then there's skill focus (+3), circumstance bonuses (+?), masterwork artisan tools (+2) and aid another (+2); all ready to give a little extra boost.
I'd go with masterwork tools (+12 in total) to meet a DC12 for simple weapons. Even when they failed on the DC15 check for martial weapons (1 in 10 chance of failure) they wouldn't fail by more than 5 so wouldn't ruin any raw materials and could just Try Again.
That would be assuming that the ogre in question devoted a serious portion of his life to being an excellent smith. Why would the ogre do so before Barl shows up with the whip? Sure you can tune one ogre to be like this, why is there a whole tribe of ogres like this out in the wild? Do they forge Large and Huge weapons instead of whittling wood or playing banjoes? It just snaps my suspension of disbelief.
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Sure you can tune one ogre to be like this, why is there a whole tribe of ogres like this out in the wild? Do they forge Large and Huge weapons instead of whittling wood or playing banjoes? It just snaps my suspension of disbelief.
Even saying that none of them have ANY skill points in weaponsmithing, they're getting a +6 from the aid another, masterwork tools, and circumstance bonus (when a stone giant is whipping you, you learn faster!) - that's still a 50/50 chance of making a martial weapon if you pull an inbred ogre out of the gutter. By screwing up every other weapon made, Barl has an excuse to stick around and keep playing King of Hook Mountain: "I'm going to be whipping you until you meet quota and meet it right!". Hell, that screw up factor alone is a reason to use ogres instead of competent slaves.
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If I know how to make a weapon and can supervise others then I don't see a problem with it. If I put a gun to your head and tell you to make a damn sword with someone telling you how, then I am fairly sure your going to do it. Unless of course you want to buck the system I have set up, then I just use you as an example.
I'm fairly sure that most slave labor through the ages didn't always know their jobs when they were made slaves. So you learn or you die. Most will try to live.
Even saying that none of them have ANY skill points in weaponsmithing, they're getting a +6 from the aid another, masterwork tools, and circumstance bonus (when a stone giant is whipping you, you learn faster!)Sure you can tune one ogre to be like this, why is there a whole tribe of ogres like this out in the wild? Do they forge Large and Huge weapons instead of whittling wood or playing banjoes? It just snaps my suspension of disbelief.
So you'll have four ogres working on making one weapon. I can see kind of see that. The ogres in the module don't seem to cooperate that well, but I can see them being cowed into it.
What masterwork tools are you talking about? I can't find any in the adventure. Also, if you're giving out a circumstance bonus because of bad things happening if the roll fails, you'll be giving that bonus out to your players quite often.
That would be assuming that the ogre in question devoted a serious portion of his life to being an excellent smith. Why would the ogre do so before Barl shows up with the whip? Sure you can tune one ogre to be like this, why is there a whole tribe of ogres like this out in the wild? Do they forge Large and Huge weapons instead of whittling wood or playing banjoes? It just snaps my suspension of disbelief.
The ogres had forges. They make their hooks for one, and the occasional odd tool or weapon. If you don't think inbred degenerates can use forges, I'll point you toward my extended family. ;-)
Also, no ones saying they are doing a good job. Mokmurian might have dispatched Barl to find some ogres to throw in the front ranks, and when he got there saw they had forges and the like, and so Barl sent word to Mokmurian "Hey, these ogres can forge weapons for the army." Mokmurian's got a thousand things on his mind so he's like "cool buddy, you make those weapons." And Barl's like "sweet, I can sit pretty here and play King...freaking awesome!"
That's not incredibly hard to believe is it?
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Creative Director
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That would be assuming that the ogre in question devoted a serious portion of his life to being an excellent smith. Why would the ogre do so before Barl shows up with the whip? Sure you can tune one ogre to be like this, why is there a whole tribe of ogres like this out in the wild? Do they forge Large and Huge weapons instead of whittling wood or playing banjoes? It just snaps my suspension of disbelief.
Well... even before Barl showed up, the ogres made their own weapons. That's where ogre hooks came from, and ogre hooks are martial weapons, which is a DC 15 check to craft. And the Kreegs themselves do mine for ore under their cave. They DO have some ogres, either in their clan or stolen from other clans, who have ranks in Craft (weaponsmith). And those are certainly the ones Barl would put in charge of the project.
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Okay - doppelganger is right.
The skills section in the OGL rules is broken
It only really makes sense in relation to solo-ish artisan crafting. Production line approaches are not catered for by any existing skill I can find.
Because that's what they're doing, surely? In RL production lines and repetition reduce the amount of skill and training an individual needs to work effectively.
Maybe Paizo should have wasted some space with a new game mechanic for production lines... but I'm glad they did not.
and trolls are a lot harder to bully around than ogres.
Damn straight. Ogres feel pain. Trolls...well, let's just say there's a reason only a couple of 'em were killed holding off 30+ ogres at the dam. Until you get the fire giants to show up with flaming swords, a troll would just tell the generals of a giant army to screw off. And then probably try to eat them (Trolls are very hungry.)
What masterwork tools are you talking about? I can't find any in the adventure. Also, if you're giving out a circumstance bonus because of bad things happening if the roll fails, you'll be giving that bonus out to your players quite often.
I was thinking that they could have a circumstance bonus for repetitive labor: Sure, they might be lousy smiths, but they've mastered the few items they had to make over and over.
As far as masterwork tools, I would expect them to have some tools perfectly suited to their tasks. The items might not function as a masterwork in any other context, but for the work the ogres are performing, they make the job much easier. (Yeah, I'm reaching, I admit.)