Is it just me or is there something really creepy about the Vanthus and Lavinia thing? She obviously just plain hates him, well and good. I just had a sort of odd feeling reading about him keeping her as a slave in the attack on Farshore scenario. What's with that? Am I reading too much into it?
Is it just me or is there something really creepy about the Vanthus and Lavinia thing? She obviously just plain hates him, well and good. I just had a sort of odd feeling reading about him keeping her as a slave in the attack on Farshore scenario. What's with that? Am I reading too much into it?
No, you just haven't read the background info in "Serpents of Scuttlecove" and "Into the Maw" intensely enough. After that... well no more sympathy for Vanthus, I guess. Bend her to his unholy desires..... ? How much more explicit do the designers have to get ?
The little lecherous creep - well he will certainly get his comeuppance !
Creative Director
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Is it just me or is there something really creepy about the Vanthus and Lavinia thing? She obviously just plain hates him, well and good. I just had a sort of odd feeling reading about him keeping her as a slave in the attack on Farshore scenario. What's with that? Am I reading too much into it?
Absolutely not. I didn't want to get TOO into the details of Vanthus's obsession with Lavinia, since incest is a pretty mature topic to be bandying about in Dungeon, but yeah. Vanthus is sexually attracted to his sister. This attraction is not something Lavinia's really aware of until, probably, Tides of Dread's climax. She's CERTAINLY not into him, though. She's a good girl!
Anyway, by skirting the topic in print, though, we allow a GM to downplay that angle if it's inapropriate for his game, or to focus on it more if it isn't.
I thought Vanthus wanted power, not... ew.
That is one of the more primal forms of power good Pygon, and given how Vanthus is but a pale imitation of what demons have in mind...
I thought Vanthus wanted power, not... ew.
And of course, you can always want more than one thing...
But the entire motivation angle for Vanthus is one of the more realistic parts of STAP which I deeply appreciate - makes him far more memorable and believable than just "all your bases are belong to us"
My players have just started to re-hate him ( fresh into SoS ) and that really is partly due to his habit of going for Lavinia first thing he can.
I thought Vanthus wanted power, not... ew.
same here. i thought he was just jealous of her.
ick. :-/
messy
I agree with much of what Vikingson has said--I just had begun re-reading the whole set as preparation to consider how to run it when it suddenly struck me and I felt disturbed. And yeah, it does make him more vile and creepy, and makes his strange actions more clear. Disturbingly clear.
I'm just a player and I totally got that vibe right from "There is no Honor" and onward. Maybe it's my literary background but that very first speech Lavinia gives about Vanthus raised all sorts of red flags in my mind.
Got to agree with you, in fact I had this whole scenario in my mind (get it out, get it out!) when she was talking about how they went their seperate ways after an incident/prank involving a love potion...
Got to agree with you, in fact I had this whole scenario in my mind (get it out, get it out!) when she was talking about how they went their seperate ways after an incident/prank involving a love potion...
Sounds like the making of a bad porn or Hentai movie. Taboo IV The Savaged Maiden Adventure Path.
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Socothbenoth is the demon lord of incest, detailed in Green Ronin's Book of Fiends.
I'm just a player and I totally got that vibe right from "There is no Honor" and onward. Maybe it's my literary background but that very first speech Lavinia gives about Vanthus raised all sorts of red flags in my mind.Got to agree with you, in fact I had this whole scenario in my mind (get it out, get it out!) when she was talking about how they went their seperate ways after an incident/prank involving a love potion...
My players also cued in to this immediately. (EDIT to add: Helped by Vanthus's "keep away from my sister" bit on Parrot Island.)
Anyway, by skirting the topic in print we allow a GM to downplay that angle if it's inapropriate for his game, or to focus on it more if it isn't.
Definitely the right move for the magazine :)
However, villains such as Vanthus should be as evil, depraved, and repulsive as possible -- and it's hard to get more depraved than this (it can be done, and I've done it in games past, but it's not a pretty subject).
This will definitely be played up IMC.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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However, villains such as Vanthus should be as evil, depraved, and repulsive as possible -- and it's hard to get more depraved than this (it can be done, and I've done it in games past, but it's not a pretty subject).
Pretty easy to get more depraved. It's not children, or animals, or people he's delimbed and put into a box...
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Ok, that really makes me want to have Lavinia delimbed and in a box
Absolutely not. I didn't want to get TOO into the details of Vanthus's obsession with Lavinia, since incest is a pretty mature topic to be bandying about in Dungeon, but yeah. Vanthus is sexually attracted to his sister. This attraction is not something Lavinia's really aware of until, probably, Tides of Dread's climax. She's CERTAINLY not into him, though. She's a good girl!
Anyway, by skirting the topic in print, though, we allow a GM to downplay that angle if it's inapropriate for his game, or to focus on it more if it isn't.
In my opinion that that was a poor choice made by Dungeon magazine. Was it really necessary to add incest into a role playing game by a publisher? It's not as if DMs and players alike can't come up with their own ideas in which the bad guys deal with the heroes. I never have.
But like I said .... bad call, bad judgement.
Bandit of LV
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Creative Director
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In my opinion that that was a poor choice made by Dungeon magazine. Was it really necessary to add incest into a role playing game by a publisher? It's not as if DMs and players alike can't come up with their own ideas in which the bad guys deal with the heroes. I never have.
But like I said .... bad call, bad judgement.
Bandit of LV
I don't think it was a bad call. Incest has played a role in numerous movies, stories, and other mediums through the ages. Sometimes in exploitative venues, but also in critically acclaimed venues as well. Why should RPGs avoid mature topics when other entertainment mediums don't?
That said, I made an attempt to keep the element subtle, so that a DM could easily ignore the element in his game if it wasn't appropriate for his group. In my opinion, though, that lessens the campaign.
Each GM has to exercise his/her/its judgement on what matters presented or hinted at during the course of any campaign are brought to the fore or left in the shadows. If, for example, one is GM'ing teenagers or others of undeveloped mindset, it is easy enough to alter the incest angle to the simpler jealousy angle for example.
We have no obligation to run any AP "as written" - it just takes a bit more work to get the ball rolling, often times not a whole lot of work fortunately.
I agree, I don't think it was a bad decision. They provided motivation, incest is clearly part of it along with jealousy. I'm not going to get into the whole 'sex vs. violence' debate but suffice it to say that Vanthus isn't being presented as a nice kindly fellow but as a depraved villain.
...
But like I said .... bad call, bad judgement.
Bandit of LV
hmm, so it is ok, to have villains perform blood sacrifices, enter into pacts with nefarious powers, murder entire tribes/cultures/people torture abuse and pillage at their heart's content etc etc. without any moral outrage (all of which has happend throughout the publishing history of "Dungeon" in its hallowed pages ?
But in contrast not even mention - and very obscurely, too, to say the least - that particular motivation/urge for a villain ? So what is good enough for mainstream, big-screen Hollywood ("Gladiator" anyone ?) is "off-limits" for Paizo ?
Weird....
Then again, I am a depraved European... and sexuality has always been a part of the game, from rescuing princess from dragons, virgins (!) from demons, pure maidens in the lake, knights and jousting, etc etc.
Never revolted my poor conservative ( oh yes ), oh-so-sheltered-childhood self at the tender age of 15, nor does it now.
And I am pretty sure, most younger players would not have even noticed the allusions in the STAP.
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I suppose as I read through the material, the subject did occur to me, but not until I read the part where Vanthus had become a death knight and was sitting there ruminating in Divided's Ire. Maybe it had to do with who the shadows represented. But I didn't think Vanthus desired his sister in life, only after being turned into a demon spiraled him into more corruption. And who knows what would have happened after Livinia had been transformed and bent more to his will?
I certainly picked up on that from the first adventure onward, though it really was evident when
I'm pleasantly surprised to hear you acknowledge that, James, knowing that you'll likely get some negative comments about it. (It is a sensitive subject, and certainly not appropriate for all groups.)
And I'm also glad you made it relatively subtle, so people can use it or not, as they see fit.
But I think that it definitely serves to heighten the enmithy towards Vanthus, which certainly pays off in the end.
I have to say that I am somewhat surprised everyone did not catch the incest bit right off the bat, I picked up on it right away (but then again maybe I am just rather depraved, as I am of half-US, half-Canadian heritage and all).
At first I was like, no way dungeon did not just set up it's plot as based around a incestual tension conflict. But then as I read along, and the adventures arrived, with Vanthus showing up here an there at critical times, I agreed that it gave him a nice edge.
My group rarely dips to far into sexuality (I guess my Canadian-WASP half blushes at such discussion in public, even if they are with my best friends), although in my AoW campaign the Paladin of Hextor did end up having a torrid affair with Celeste, ending with him fathering twin boys (can anyone say Hextor & Heironeous, Chaos and Law, Devil and Eladrin). Yet, I feel I will definitely play up the incestual urges of Vanthus, if for no other reason than to see my players hate him a little more and squirm a bit in their seats.
Just as a side note, I wonder what groups who picked the dark (Jade Dragons Lady) path would think of this. It would kind of be less interesting I guess as Vanthus would be less of a central player with Lavinia exiting stage right early on.
Just as a side note, I wonder what groups who picked the dark (Jade Dragons Lady) path would think of this. It would kind of be less interesting I guess as Vanthus would be less of a central player with Lavinia exiting stage right early on.
If the party throws in with Rowyn, the DM can play Vanthus as a "romantic rival." Nothing like a little PC-NPC jealousy to spice up a villain.
Have Rowyn actually fall for one of the PCs and then have her tell Vanthus in Farshore that she was only sleeping with him to get his family's money. :D
I'm waiting to see how my pcs respond to Lavinia in the next session post their discoveries of what was really on the Blue Nixie. So far they're wary of her.
I jumped on the incest wagon with my players.
In fact when they discovered his journal from the TOD battle it contained many entries about how his obsession and wrongful love slowly developed over the months after he went over to the dark side. (I wrote a lot more detailed journal for them to discover with a lot more sordid details).
He is now part Demon, why not?
What other dark and twisted things do they do. I really used this fact to emphasize just how sick and twisted Vanthus had become. One of my players who developed a relationship with Lavinia even had some issues dealing with this sick tpic, was some good roleplaying!
Glad you left it open ended for us to add some twisted flavor to the campaign.
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I jumped on the incest wagon with my players.
Bet that was a fun trip...
My girlfriend saw me reading this thread, and asked me what you were all banging on about now (no, she's not a gamer...); I told her, and showed her the pictures of Lavinia (Mm, Hmm!) and Vanthus, and she went "Phwoarr! I'd totally do him...!".
I showed her the other picture, "And later, he turns into that...", and she was even more aroused! Hell's Belles!
I agree that this is was very interesting aspect on the story between these two.
My girlfriend saw me reading this thread, and asked me what you were all banging on about now (no, she's not a gamer...); I told her, and showed her the pictures of Lavinia (Mm, Hmm!) and Vanthus, and she went "Phwoarr! I'd totally do him...!".
I showed her the other picture, "And later, he turns into that...", and she was even more aroused! Hell's Belles!
Heh heh ... betcha got some excellent 'improvised good roleplaying xp' shortly afterwards Snorter... ^_^
Heh heh ... betcha got some excellent 'improvised good roleplaying xp' shortly afterwards Snorter... ^_^
Come on Turin....
It is Snorter after all...I mean why do you think there is the phrase "Rutting like a bull?" Not to sure how it applies to a Gorgon...you do the math.As for the OP, yeah I caught it right off the bat...the games that I run for groups are very dark, gritty, and downright depraved sometimes...
The games I run 1-1 with my wife most of the time are worse. Now before anyone goes O.O, I'm just saying that I pull no punches or anything in those games because I know exactly how my wife will react to such situations. Groups you have to be more delicate with.
Oh, and Welcome to the Special XXXP Club Snorter.
>> I wrote a lot more detailed journal for them to discover with a lot more sordid details
Don't suppose you could make that available for us? Maybe on RPGenius or by email: todd@paladinpgm.com
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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In my opinion that that was a poor choice made by Dungeon magazine. Was it really necessary to add incest into a role playing game by a publisher? It's not as if DMs and players alike can't come up with their own ideas in which the bad guys deal with the heroes. I never have.But like I said .... bad call, bad judgement.
Bandit of LV
So was it a bad call in Galdiator to have Commodus want his sister Lucilla? It did a pretty good job in making him more vile than he already was... and he pushed the insanity pretty far.
It's icky but c'mon it's not like it's never been done before.
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In my opinion that that was a poor choice made by Dungeon magazine. Was it really necessary to add incest into a role playing game by a publisher? It's not as if DMs and players alike can't come up with their own ideas in which the bad guys deal with the heroes. I never have.But like I said .... bad call, bad judgement.
Bandit of LV
So was it a bad call in Galdiator to have Commodus want his sister Lucilla? It did a pretty good job in making him more vile than he already was... and he pushed the insanity pretty far.
It's icky but c'mon it's not like it's never been done before.
Hamlet, anyone?
Hamlet, anyone?
In my opinion that that was a poor choice made by Dungeon magazine. Was it really necessary to add incest into a role playing game by a publisher? It's not as if DMs and players alike can't come up with their own ideas in which the bad guys deal with the heroes. I never have.But like I said .... bad call, bad judgement.
Bandit of LV
So was it a bad call in Galdiator to have Commodus want his sister Lucilla? It did a pretty good job in making him more vile than he already was... and he pushed the insanity pretty far.
It's icky but c'mon it's not like it's never been done before.
Oedipus or Electra...
I'm sure there was one about siblings in Greek myth, too, but I can't remember it off the top of my head.
Even Tolkien used it in the story of Turin, son of Hurin, in the Silmarillion.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Hamlet, anyone?
In my opinion that that was a poor choice made by Dungeon magazine. Was it really necessary to add incest into a role playing game by a publisher? It's not as if DMs and players alike can't come up with their own ideas in which the bad guys deal with the heroes. I never have.But like I said .... bad call, bad judgement.
Bandit of LV
So was it a bad call in Galdiator to have Commodus want his sister Lucilla? It did a pretty good job in making him more vile than he already was... and he pushed the insanity pretty far.
It's icky but c'mon it's not like it's never been done before.
Oedipus or Electra...
I'm sure there was one about siblings in Greek myth, too, but I can't remember it off the top of my head.
Granted, neither Oedipus nor his mother had any clue about their relationship until later.
>> I wrote a lot more detailed journal for them to discover with a lot more sordid details
Don't suppose you could make that available for us? Maybe on RPGenius or by email: todd@paladinpgm.com
Sure it is not really sick or anything (most of the gamers have families, including myself) but shows Vanthus as he becomes increasingly more unstable. I will e-mail it to you shortly.
Fee free to let me know if anyone else would like a copy.
I wouldn't mind a copy either. poe@allstream.net.
And don't forget all the incest in mythology around the world; Hera/Zeus (ok, bad example), Osiris/Isis, Osiris/Nephytys (resulting in Anubis), Poseidon/Demeter, and so forth and so forth.
Still, it's a really fast way to make Vanthus hateable...
I would love a copy.
trigont at yahoo
I think I'd like a copy, too. TracerBullet42@gmail.com
I think I'd like a copy, too. TracerBullet42@gmail.com
Me too
ez-mate at ntlworld.com
I could use a copy too if you don't mind.
jasonej@hotmail.com
Thanks.
I would love a copy too if it isn't too much trouble :)
daehith@msn.com
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
Gentlemen, check your e-mails, I have sent the journal to everyone who requested it. Enjoy!
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Gentlemen, check your e-mails, I have sent the journal to everyone who requested it. Enjoy!
Ooh! Ooh!
Please sir may I have a copy?
Though I possibly could come up with something totally sick by myself, this way if I freak anyone out, I can blame it on you!
robert.feather@blueyonder.co.uk
Thanks in advance
Bob
I'll take one too:
alarikdafu @ hotmail.com