They got FR in my GH - Yuck !
Good Lord, I seriously wish I would quit reading when a new 4th edition article shows up.
I know its the geek reaction, but since when has Bane been a god of war? Not that his followers don't go to war, but its not like, his main thing. ::Sigh:: and there goes any chance of my theory of the "new" Bane being Xvim disguised to take advantage of his father's rep ever getting any kind of official follow up.
And did anyone notice that Bahamut, as described, is essentially Paladine from Dragonlance?
And why if the "core" pantheon has Asmodeus as a LE powerhouse, do they need Bane too?
Oh, yeah, that's right, they are keeping alignments in the game, they just don't mean anything.
Here's the article for anyone who doesn't feel like muddying their feet.
Design & Development - Pantheon
The family of gods for 4th Edition is a mix of old and new. You'll see familiar faces like Corellon, Moradin, and Pelor, and some new faces as well, like Zehir, Torog, and Bane.
Yes, Bane.
Before I explain what the Forgotten Realms' god of tyranny and war is doing rubbing shoulders with Pelor, let me say a bit about our thinking when we created a pantheon in the first place.
There was a time when the team working on "the world" of D&D thought we could get away with creating general rules useful to clerics regardless of which pantheon existed in the campaign, and then presenting a variety of fictional and historical pantheons for DMs to adopt or adapt as they saw fit. I believe it was Stacy Longstreet, the senior D&D art director, who pointed out that this solution would leave us in a bit of a bind.
When we wanted to put a temple in an adventure, what god would it be dedicated to? We could make Generic Evil Temples™, but that would sap a lot of the flavor out of our adventures, and rob us of specific plot hooks and story lines based on the portfolios and histories of these gods.
When we wanted to illustrate a cleric in one of our books, what holy symbol would the cleric hold? Again, we could rely on a stable of generic symbols (maybe the Zapf Dingbat font?), but at the cost of a lot of flavor.
We ended up creating a new pantheon. At first, we used some of the gods from 3rd Edition as placeholder names -- we thought we'd come up with new names for [Pelor] the sun god and [Moradin] the god of the forge. Ultimately we decided that using some familiar faces was preferable to giving our players a whole new set of names to learn. Besides, if a god looks like an elf and took out the orc-god's eye like a certain well-known elf god, why not call him Corellon?
Corellon: The elf god is a good example of a god who kept his well-earned place in the D&D pantheon. But "the elf god" shouldn't be taken to literally. Sure, he's often depicted as an elf or an eladrin, and many eladrin in particular revere him. But he's equally popular among human wizards, and even dwarves who practice the finer arts are prone to offering him prayers. One of our goals with the new pantheon was to loosen the tight associations between gods and races that has in the past led to the creation of whole pantheons full of elf, dwarf, orc, and goblin deities. Corellon is still associated with elfy things like arcane magic and the Feywild, and he still hates Lolth and the drow. But his appeal is a little broader now.
Bahamut: Here's another example of a familiar, draconic face showing up in a somewhat new light. Maybe it was the Platinum Knight prestige class in Draconomicon that did it, but something convinced me a long time ago that Bahamut was a much cooler god of paladins than Heironeous ever was. Like Corellon, Bahamut's not just for dragons any more. He's the god of justice, protection, and honor, and many paladins of all races worship him. Many metallic dragons revere him as well, thinking of him as the first of their kind. Some legends about Bahamut describe him as literally a shining platinum dragon, while others describe him as a more anthropomorphic deity, who's called the Platinum Dragon as a title of respect. Exhorting his followers to protect the weak, liberate the oppressed, and defend just order, Bahamut stands as the exemplar of the paladin's ideal.
Bane: Here's another god whose placeholder name just stuck, despite some reservations. We wanted an evil war god in the pantheon, and without Heironeous, Hextor didn't make a lot of sense. We wanted the kind of heavily militaristic god whose temples you might find among non-evil societies who have spent long years at war, as well as among hobgoblins. We wanted a god who embodied just the sort of tyrannical dictatorship that Bane stands for in the Forgotten Realms. We started calling him Bane as a placeholder. He went through a number of different, unsatisfying names. Finally, someone said we should just call him Bane. So Bane he remained.
Like chocolate and peanut butter, we think Bane and Bahamut are two great tastes that taste great together. Does that mean you have to use them in your 4th Edition game? Of course not. But we think that, when you see these gods in action in our core books and adventures, you'll agree that they belong in their new places of honor in the pantheon of the D&D game.
- James Wyatt
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"But we think that, when you see these gods in action in our core books and adventures, you'll agree that they belong in their new places of honor in the pantheon of the D&D game."
I think that, when I see these gods in action in your core books and adventures (if I buy any), I'll agree that you're all friggin' idiots that belong in a new place of honor alongside Lorraine Williams.
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Why not just drop in Sobek, Egyptian God of Crocodile Lovin' Goodness, too?
Or Sharess, Calishite lady of the evening?
Hell,
THOR anyone?
Rationalization isn't working anymore. I'm growing fearful that D&D's 'flavor' will be reworked in such a way as to make it virtually unrecognizable in 4th edition.
Don't worry though, some apologist on ENWorld or the Wizards boards will come up with a savvy justification for this one, too.
There was a time when the team working on "the world" of D&D thought we could get away with creating general rules useful to clerics regardless of which pantheon existed in the campaign, and then presenting a variety of fictional and historical pantheons for DMs to adopt or adapt as they saw fit. I believe it was Stacy Longstreet, the senior D&D art director, who pointed out that this solution would leave us in a bit of a bind.
When we wanted to put a temple in an adventure, what god would it be dedicated to? We could make Generic Evil Temples™, but that would sap a lot of the flavor out of our adventures, and rob us of specific plot hooks and story lines based on the portfolios and histories of these gods.
When we wanted to illustrate a cleric in one of our books, what holy symbol would the cleric hold? Again, we could rely on a stable of generic symbols (maybe the Zapf Dingbat font?), but at the cost of a lot of flavor.
Perhaps I am an idiot... I mean, I very well could be...
But how would making generic Cleric rules with Plug'n'Play pantheons put WoTC in a bind?
Say they wanted to put in an Evil Temple in an adventure... They could make it a temple to whoever they damn well please, and leave it up to the DM to alter if s/he so chooses with the Plug'n'Play pantheon of his/her choice.
If they wanted to illustrate a Cleric in one of their books... They would have to look up what Holy Symbol matches the God of the Cleric the author chose, and bingo! Solution.
And to think... I got drawn into this thread because I always liked Bane as a deity...
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*shrug*
again I'll ask what difference does it make?
The 3E CORE deities are a joke. I am just curious how many Eberon players use the core deities as their pantheon. It is, afterall, core. How many FR players use the Core deities? Mystara and Ravenloft and Dragonlance players? Anyone?
SInce 3E was the first edition to have a CORE pantheon what difference does it make to 4E if they mix them up? 3E should have just given me a few pages to doodle in rather than waste them on useless gods.
So 4E does the same thing. They waste several pages on useless gods that no one uses anyway.
Big deal. They are just repeating the same stupid mistake that 3e made.
I see no reason at all people are bemoaning the fact that a useless section will remain just as useless.
And to be honest... lets face it Heironeious (dumb name) and Hextor need to go. Bane is a much better sounding name for an evil war deity. And Bahamut features in many myths, and many homebrews as well. So, yes he will take Palidine's features sort of from Dragonlance. Cool. The Core deities were dumb to begin with and needed a facelift.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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And to be honest... lets face it Heironeious (dumb name) and Hextor need to go. Bane is a much better sounding name for an evil war deity. And Bahamut features in many myths, and many homebrews as well. So, yes he will take Palidine's features sort of from Dragonlance. Cool. The Core deities were dumb to begin with and needed a facelift.
I'd have trouble coming up with a dumber name than "Bane" for an evil god (or for a Batman villain). What's next? "Bliss" for the god of Happiness? Booze, the god of wine? Emo, the god of Angst?
So the whole idea is, let's get crazy with the game setting...so we can order the art in advance.
Uh....what?
And to be honest... lets face it Heironeious (dumb name) and Hextor need to go. Bane is a much better sounding name for an evil war deity. And Bahamut features in many myths, and many homebrews as well. So, yes he will take Palidine's features sort of from Dragonlance. Cool. The Core deities were dumb to begin with and needed a facelift.I'd have trouble coming up with a dumber name than "Bane" for an evil god (or for a Batman villain). What's next? "Bliss" for the god of Happiness? Booze, the god of wine? Emo, the god of Angst?
God, it's like they just don't want my custom anymore- would it kill these guys to just come up with a simple Pantheon rather then cannibalizing their own children? The old suggestion of using Deities from real mythology may have had wings, but Wizards can't shackle those cashcows to their IP.
I'm more then a little insulted that the core elements and setting we've grown up with are getting labelled dumb and in need or "reimagineering". It insults the players who bought, played and loved D&D, and make the writer look like a snotty pissant. If you want something new, just start afresh, don't be so lazy as to just cobble together a couple of archetypes from old product and make it sound like a guest-starring role. It's nostalgia at it's cynical worst and should have no currency in a game that espouses the use of imagination.
Make no mistake, this reeks of dumbing down and is horrible- I defy anyone to not cringe at it. I wouldn't presume to know the response at Paizo, since they maintain such a good rapport with WotC, but there has to be some puzzled head scratching going on at least.
I think that since they are ripping everthing else to shreds in the name of "progress" they could also make a new set of gods too. I'll pull names out of my (insert expletive here) and mythology, to fill in for an lawful evil god of war and tyranny portfolio. Kinda surprised they didn't just make Vecna the new LE god of tranny after all they have three gods who take care of magic currently and as we know that is way to many.
Agrona - a British Goddess of strife and war (Celtic)
Camulus - god of war (Celtic)
Loviatar - One of Tuoni's daughters. Goddess of pain. (Finnish)
Krames- God of all Mythological Distruction, Spawned from the weapon of Zeus Himself. (second generation Olympian)
Kalki- The Avatar of Vishnu yet to come on the onset of Apocalypse (Hindu)
Durga - The Goddess of Power and War (Hindu)
Asura - Demons, Anti gods (Hindu)
Nergal - god of war, disease, death and destruction; ruler of the underworld (Mesopotamian)
Pikullos (Pikuls; Pickollo) - god of war and death (in Christian times, he was vilified as the devil) (Prussian)
Bellona - war goddess (Roman)
Flins - god of death (Slavic)
Svarog - god of fire (Slavic)
Charun-Demon (Etruscan mythology)
Legion-Demon (Christian demonology)
Razakel-(European folklore)
Devous
She-vra
Grekla
Demirosk
Sessul
Tarnon
Kel
Ragnon
Tolesk
Though this has been a good exercise, because I have learned about Orcus (In Roman mythology, Orcus was a god of the underworld, punisher of broken oaths, more equivalent to Pluto than to the Greek Hades, and later identified with Dis Pater.), Tiamat (In Babylonian mythology, Tiamat is the sea, personified as a goddess, and a monstrous embodiment of primordial chaos.), Nergal (Nergal actually seems to be in part a solar deity, sometimes identified with Shamash, but only a representative of a certain phase of the sun. Portrayed in hymns and myths as a god of war and pestilence, Nergal seems to represent the sun of noontime and of the summer solstice that brings destruction, high summer being the dead season in the Mesopotamian annual cycle.) and others.
I apologize if there is any overlap with other dieties, demons, devils, etc. (From settings or other sources.)
Also I wonder how they are going to explain Heironious and Hextor disappearing... oh wait Bhaal killed them cause heck didn't you know all settings are cross compatible?
Hmmm kinda forgot why I started writing this. Ah well its random info my gift to you.
And Bahamut features in many myths,
Yes, as a giant fish and partner to Leviathan. The Bahamut-as-dragon idea is from the Final Fantasy games, which almost count as myth these days.
"The enormous fish
on which stands Kujara,
the Bull whose back supports a rock of ruby,
on the top of which stands an angel
on whose shoulders rests the earth,
Bahamut, Great Fish
that roams on the land.
The Trueseeing.
Transcending Reality.
The Creator of Sounds from Beyond."
Not sure if I'd want my paladin to worship that. Sounds more like a sahuagin bard kind of thing.
And Bahamut features in many myths,Yes, as a giant fish and partner to Leviathan. The Bahamut-as-dragon idea is from the Final Fantasy games, which almost count as myth these days.
Bahamut as a Dragon was way before Final Fantasy look up 1st DND
who is Bane?
Umm--I think Bahamut appeared as "the Platinum Dragon" in 1e D&D before there were computers capable of running Final Fantasy I. IIRC.
As for "core deities," the point of having them is so that a fairly new DM can pick up the core books and create some kind of a campaign on his own, without needing either a bunch of supplemental material or to make up his own pantheon.
However, core deities also attach the game to a setting, even if only tenuously. If FR is now the standard setting (which in some ways it is, if we measure by official WotC product support), then it makes sense that the major FR deities ought to become core deities. But that means that Lathander should replace Pelor and Mystra and Shar replace Boccob and so forth as well. Otherwise, you end up with a hodgepodge of deities and you have to invent new traditional rivalries, and when you go to convert "generic" to a specific setting you end up making even less sense than you do with the kind of conversion procedures that our friends here at Paizo have done to make the APs compatible with FR and Eberron.
And as for names that sound "stupid"--that's all a matter of getting used to them. The theonyms invented by such revered authors as Lovecraft and Moorcock sounded rather "stupid" to me when I first read those books, but after a while I got used to them and accepted them. Come to think of it, there were a lot of names that sounded dumb to me when I first started studying Chinese, but then I got used to the sound of the language and the awkwardness was gone. Greyhawk has its own flavor, including many names of persons and places that are whimsical or humorous--that's part of the setting and I haven't found that it detracts from game play. In my homebrew world, I choose different names that give the world a more serious, high-fantasy tone in my own ears, but probably many of my Asian inspired names would sound really cheesy in your ears. In short the "sounds stupid" accusation is kind of meaningless because "cool" is in the ear of the listener.
C'mon, of course he should get a promotion. He killed Batman, after all. And just think, all of his clerics will get to wear those weird luchador masks, just like his: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bane_%28comics%29
...or Babylonian mythology, for that matter.Bahamut as a Dragon was way before Final Fantasy look up 1st DNDAnd Bahamut features in many myths,Yes, as a giant fish and partner to Leviathan. The Bahamut-as-dragon idea is from the Final Fantasy games, which almost count as myth these days.
No, you're confusing Bahamut with Tiamat. Bahamut is from Jewish mythology, via Arabia. Bahamut-as-dragon is a D&D invention made popular (hence my reference) by Final Fantasy's blatant rip-off of D&D monsters.
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No, you're confusing Bahamut with Tiamat. Bahamut is from Jewish mythology, via Arabia. Bahamut-as-dragon is a D&D invention made popular (hence my reference) by Final Fantasy's blatant rip-off of D&D monsters.
...or Babylonian mythology, for that matter.
Crap. I keep thinking Bahamut is Babylonian for smoe reason. Maybe it's the Arabic connection. Who knows. I make mistakes like that all the time.
And yes, the FF version of Bahamut is a blatant rip-off. One of my friends, a big-time Final Fantasy fan, told me that the Bahamut Aeon was referred to as the "Platinum Dragon" once in the game.
Why not just drop in Sobek, Egyptian God of Crocodile Lovin' Goodness, too?
Or Sharess, Calishite lady of the evening?
Hell,
THOR anyone?
Rationalization isn't working anymore. I'm growing fearful that D&D's 'flavor' will be reworked in such a way as to make it virtually unrecognizable in 4th edition.
Don't worry though, some apologist on ENWorld or the Wizards boards will come up with a savvy justification for this one, too.
I thought they were using Thor? I bit-ched about them dropping Kord, and I got told well you have Thor...NOT the same. My vote's for Bran if we just get to throw in random gods. He's king of the Welsh gods, the destoryer of the black cauldron, the blessed one, the raven and later a talking head.
No on Bane. I didn't like him in FR. I don't like him now in what ever bastardized setting we have.
I'd perfer if Asmodeus wasn't a god. That's what made him such a bad ass. Hello I'm the guy that even gods respect and pay homage to, Want to find out why? Well for one I can bleed Pit Fiends, but that something I'm saving for later...
I'm cool with Bahamut. He always had that pally vibe, and I liked him in Dragonlance. I also like how several people worshiped the same god just with very different dogma.
Fizz
I'll take that dare not to cringe. I don't love it, but anything it takes to get an ACTUAL D&D core setting rather than the pseudo-Greyhawk is something akin to progress for me.
I don't see the problem having a Forgotten Realms god show up in the core setting. I mean in the new cosmology he has a divine realm floating out in the silver sea too right? So why not? I mean how many Greyhawk deities did Forgotten Realms get saddled with over the years? Did that "mess up" Faerun to have Lolth and Corellon Larethian and Tiamat running around there? Nah. The cosmologies are all distantly connected anyway, even in 3.x so no harm done. I had more trouble trying to figure out what to do when 3.0 totally redid all halflings in all settings and added half-orcs into the setting.
But fine. That's not really the thing here. What I'm really excited about is the vain hope that maybe they've decided that in this NEW D&D that the whole idea of real world mythology is just dumb like crazy. I mean since you're making sausage out of poor ol' Hextor and Heironious, why not grind up Isis and Thor and Zeus and all that corny crap too. Really. I mean I am all for starting fresh. Do it. Take all the old lame stuff that nerds in the 70's thought was cool and just resynthesize it into something fresh and cool with new names. Oh and while you're at it--please disintegrate the real world cultures masquerading as fantasy cultures. Yuck! I hated reading Red Steel (a great setting I might add) and seeing rival cultures of french dog people and spaniards and cat people samurai. That stuff is just stank. Honestly I'd hoot for joy if this new confabulated D&D totally "reimagineered" a ton of things: Maztecca, Kara-tur, Al-Quadiim, Mulhorand.
I can see why they did it back in the dusty days of Gygax. Roleplaying was getting a black eye from all the negative press about crazy people stabbing each other with swords. They wanted to put a happy cub scout face on it. They wanted roleplaying to be educational. They wanted to teach kids about ancient history and literature--so they ported in a bunch of lame pseudo-historical nonsense into it. It's lazy.
It's been done in fantasy as well to be sure. There's novels about guys who go around killing the whole Norse pantheon because they're so darn hardcore. Video games like God of War where you get to go around killing every Greek god you come across. Stuff like Black & White where you get to play Aztecs and Samurai and a bunch of other poorly portrayed parodies of ancient cultures all fighting each other. I don't care. It's lazy when authors and game makers do it too. It's pandering. It's like they think I'm too dumb to appreciate a fresh original mythology and can only take the same old stories I've heard since grade school. Blah!
I've borne this hate for years, like an old ulcer, because it'd been around for so long and had been so engrained into everything that you just can't get away from it. But I've always hated it and wanted to toss the whole dumb concept. But now that everything's getting shook up, now that the old and sick among the sacred cows are going down among the wolves I wish they would just get rid of it. Just axe it all.
Just to be totally random then...
Bane: LE War God? Is he no longer the god of Tyranny?
Asmodeus: LE plotting god...you'd think 'Tyranny' would fall to him..
Law: Bahamut? oro?
now to toss things into the mix
Death God/Goddess: Hel of the Aesir
Love Goddess: Inanna/Ishtar of Babylonian mythos
Madness Deity: Cthulhu! well...actually aren't they stealing Tharizdun?
Dreams/Prophecy: Soma of the Vedic pantheon
seriously..this is getting ridiculous.
The theme appears to be...Come on everyone! Lets get 'multicultural!'
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Oh and while you're at it--please disintegrate the real world cultures masquerading as fantasy cultures. Yuck! I hated reading Red Steel (a great setting I might add) and seeing rival cultures of french dog people and spaniards and cat people samurai. That stuff is just stank. Honestly I'd hoot for joy if this new confabulated D&D totally "reimagineered" a ton of things: Maztecca, Kara-tur, Al-Quadiim, Mulhorand.
Not to threadjack too far, but I totally agree with you on this. The 2d ed. Kara-Tur boxed set was the worst offender that I noticed. It wasn't just that Kara-Tur was supposed to represent Asia - each individual nation within it corresponded to a nation there as well. It's fine if they want to be educational or just create an RPG where you're running around ancient China with monsters chasing you, but don't call it D&D.
I'm cool with Bahamut. He always had that pally vibe, and I liked him in Dragonlance.
FizzWhat? Fizzban..LIKES Pala ..er Bahamut.
Go figure.
LMAO!!! I'm just a bumbbling wizard...how does that fireball spell go...
Fizzban the Magnificent
Corellon: The elf god is a good example of a god who kept his well-earned place in the D&D pantheon. But...even dwarves who practice the finer arts are prone to offering him prayers
::CHOKE:: WTF IS THIS!!!????
Are you freakin' serious.... no....NO! This is so wrong for so many reasons.... GAH! :0
Completely agree.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I thought they were using Thor? I bit-ched about them dropping Kord, and I got told well you have Thor...NOT the same. My vote's for Bran if we just get to throw in random gods. He's king of the Welsh gods, the destoryer of the black cauldron, the blessed one, the raven and later a talking head.
I thought they were using Thor too.
I dig the pantheon. I've never liked the fantasy gods anyway, and this so far looks like the greatest hits rolled into a single pantheon.
A Frankenstein-like patchwork pantheon lurches forth from an equally homely and jumbled planar cosmology. Met the 4e flavor, a baby so ugly the doctor can't decide which end to slap. Its not a pantheon; its a train wreck.
Couldn't agree more.
Where the F%@#$@#!K are these people going! I mean really c'mon already and use your F&^%%$en imagination!
I'd really prefer that they invented a core pantheon that didn't carry a ton of baggage from everywhere else if that's what they actually want...
IMO it's a peculiar (or lazy) decision.
No one will be happy with the dilution of their favorite pantheon, and it demonstrates a lack of effort that they didn't start with a clean slate -- certainly I expected them to do so.
Reading this article over at WotC made me die inside a bit.
I am trying, really trying hard, to put my prejudices aside and force myself to look at 4E with open and curious eyes. I don't want my disgust of the first hours overwhelm me.
But, god, WotC is making it really hard for me...
WTF is that jumbled up, embarrassing, pantheon?
Please, someone, wake me up! I want to be back in 2003 or 2004. "Age of Worms" was yet to come out in all its splendor, Rich Baker was a nice guy on the Boards regularly answering fluff questions on the Realms and Wizards.com was putting out regular, good, deep "Dragonshards" articles on Eberron.
Where are we now???
Bocklin
Well I think it is high time that they statted Jesus and Thor so we can....
Well I think it is high time that they statted Jesus and Thor so we can....
Well, a Carpenter and a bloke with a Hammer seem well met.
I'd really prefer that they invented a core pantheon that didn't carry a ton of baggage from everywhere else if that's what they actually want. The other article (on campaign world development) mentions Bahamut being a buddy of Kord's? Is the new Kord not a brawling fellow dressed in dragonhide?
I don't care if they reimagine everything. I do care if they recycle all the names so that 4e players aren't even talking the same language..
Oh, and just thought I'd mention that the FR doesn't have any GH imports amongst its pantheon. Except Lolth, who was a demoness akin to Orcus, Demogorgon, and all the rest. The non human gods were generic creations in Dieties and Demigods and early Dragon magazine articles that got adopted. I'm not sure off the top of my head what the first GH specific reference to them is, but its well after the first couple boxed sets. It may well be after the first edition of the FR came out.
This "new" pantheon just smacks of lack of imagination and potential confusion. How are you going to actively develop the FR Bane without confusing it with the "core" Bane and vice versa? They could use the GH gods as Core because they weren't using them for GH anyway.
My understanding is that TSR snapped up FR as a way to deny Gary Gygax future revenue streams, since it wasn't a world he had a hand in creating (not that this in any way relects badly on the realms themselves). If this is the case, then this can be framed in a new context- they own the IP for all these deities, you can be sure they are going to get their moneys worth.