I know all the bad broken things about the vow of poverty, but has anyone had any good experience with this monster of a feat? It can't be all bad right? It's exalted...
Fizz
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As long as you prevent monks from taking it, it's not so bad. Every other class has at least a moderate reliance on gear for it to function decently, though sorcerers can get a bit nasty with this feat backing them. Fortunately, sorcerers have a limited spell selection as it is and this feat gives them the ability to have a few other 'tricks up their sleeve' to enhance the usefulness of the character.
Then again, I've never seen anyone who wanted to take this feat for anything but a monk or sorcerer, so maybe there's something to this...
I actually had a fighter take this feat. "Reliance upon the strength of my own arms to change the world for the better." That was his catchphrase. On top of that, he had higher mental scores than physicals, for the most part. Something like 12,12,12,12,16,16 (32 point buy). And yeah, we started at level 1. Awesome character, awesome player.
This was post PHB2, pre-tome of battle, so he had decent fighter feats, and I hade made a feat surprisingly similar to the ToB one that lets you increase your unarmed strike damage similar to a monks.
But that example is exactly what the BoED is referring to by "Mature Players". It's not just the content, its the approach. People who don't care about roleplaying and want to make uber-PCs will allways find ways to do it. People who want to roleplay exceptional characters who are challenged by their adventures but capable of surpassing those challenges will likewise find ways to do just that.
Broken Players make Broken PCs. (Except that one Force Missle Mage/Argent Savant/Sorceror with the PHB2 Fast Metamagic Alternative Class Feature. That was a concious attempt by a veteran player at making an unstoppable juggernaut out of something that rolls d4 for HD.)
The Druid is another problem class with this feat - presuming that you cave and allow the Druid to cast spells that need material components.
The Druid is another problem class with this feat - presuming that you cave and allow the Druid to cast spells that need material components.
Umm, actually, I do believe that buried in the equippage notes for the VoP, it explicitly permits a spell component pouch and 'mundane equipment'. About the only mundane item it explicitly prohibits is body armor, thus the exalted AC bonus instead.
While clearly geared towards a Mature Player audience, the VoP *seems* broken, but it really isn't. You can't fall back on ANY potions, scrolls, wands, staves ... you can't tote around even masterwork anything. Once you're out of spells/monk abilities, you're pretty much done for the day. You can't even get the inherent ability bonus books and read them, you're entirely reliant upon buff spells and your Vow's enhancement bonuses. Coupled with the fairly strict requirements of having Exalted feats, the Vow nicely balances out imo.
In short, even at the top end of the Vow's benefits (IF you somehow survive that long), you're in many ways handicapped substantially. No contingent anythings (due to gp costs of one stripe or another), and if you're suffering from drains et al that plague higher level play, you're STUCK with them unless another selflessly restores/regenerates/etc those costly M component effects. No Holy Aura either (costly focus), and even some of the 'standard' buff spells are completely out of the question (costly M components again).
Even with a Monk, presuming normal starting ability scores, sooner far more likely than later, your VoP character WILL run into a foe that the VoP's goodies are simply not up to task in dealing with. Hopefully, your allies can pitch in ... otherwise ... you're hosed.
As with Turin, I've never found VoP imbalanced (either as a player or as a DM). Enforce the RP and mechanical restrictions and it works just fine. Throw any flying creature with ranged attacks at a VoP Monk and they're pretty much hosed as well. Honestly I've never understood the outcry made against the feat, save for when it's coupled with absurd examples of rules abuse that should be smacked down anyway.
Personally, I enjoy the feat.
But I have only used it once. A cleric geared towards Apostle of Peace. (That group of characters were retired at 3rd level due to needing that games "slot" for another group.) So VoP did little to "boost" my character, it was just a rung on the ladder of that particular healing battery.
I did have an idea for it with a Soul Knife... But that is due to the DM of our D&D games. Encounters hardly have any treasure on them, so if you don't do merchanting - you gets no gold... But looking at it from a "typical" game perspective, I can see that concept being considered "broken."
I wouldn't call it broken, even with a monk. Powerful, yes, but the BoED also has the fist of Raziel PrC (why would a LG non-Vow of Non-violence/Peace cleric not become one?). The limitations and restrictions are pretty severe in practice (as long as they are enforced). Also, the fact that "if you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat" makes the consequences of a lapse just as severe. I usually run the vow even more strictly than implied by disallowing any weapon with a gp cost (only club, quarterstaff, sling with stones, and unarmed attacks).
Of course, with the Ki Blast feat in PHB II, the lack of effective ranged attacks is not as bad. Watch out for the VoP monk/tattooed monk/initiate of Pistis Sofia, though.
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The problem I have with the vow of poverty is the assumption of a particular magic level. It may work for high magic games, but it does not work for low magic games. The character isn't giving up anything in even a standard magic game - the benefits usually equal the value of magical gear they might get. They just don't have the same flexibility.
So, it isn't something I generally allow. And I've only seen monks interested in taking it.
Th catch is their not actually close high magic or no.
Go and try to buy the stuff that VoP gives you as magic items.
At 5th level, depending on how you work out this stuff you have the equivalent of wealth of a 9th-11th level character using the wealth by level tables.
By 10th your magic bonuses are about the same as that of a character of between 12th and 14th level.
Its not until around 19th level that the characters wealth by level catches up and finally passes some one with VoP.
True, your stuck taking what the feat gives you but mostly the feat gives out good stuff. If we are talking about say a fighter then its pretty much fine but a monk gives up almost nothing and gets bonuses out the wazoo - sure he can't buy a belt of giant strength but then he gets more bonuses to strength then he could afford with a belt anyway. Plus, as a side bonus this stuff can't be taken away and it stacks with everything, meaning that he can receive that Bulls Endurance spell on top of his stat boosts unlike a monk that just owns a belt of giant strength.
The druid that uses this feat is similar to the monk in that its really all about transforming oneself into a neigh unstoppable monster. Spells are mostly just to buff the already tricked out monster. Your basically a front line fighter - in fact I suggest the party forgoes a front line fighter in this case.
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Plus, as a side bonus this stuff can't be taken away and it stacks with everything, meaning that he can receive that Bulls Endurance spell on top of his stat boosts unlike a monk that just owns a belt of giant strength.
Are you sure? I always thought it was an enhancement bonus.
And I can't look it up because I've lent someone my BoED.
I find the most of the people who oppose this feat never give/gave it an honest shot. It looks broken to me too, but I wanted to give it a playtest...so to speak, in a game I played in recently. I even went for the monk to really give it a run for it's money.
I have to say, levels 4-7 using this feat with a monk were not broken at all. I was not any more or less powerful than any other member of the party. I think the real test would be looking to see how it plays out at higher levels, but alas, that game went on indefinite hiatus, so I may never get to find out.
I’ve taken a look at the Vow of Poverty and it can be a potential killer, properly planned.
First you’re limited to simple weapons but no limit on the number and no limit on ranged vs. melee, so the old out of spells mages standby, the crossbow (light or heavy), is allowed. You also have the dagger, gauntlets, club, light and heavy maces, morningstar, spear, dart, sling, javelin, longspear, fauchard (see Dragon 331 or Dragon Compendium), quarterstaff, sickle, heavy sickle (Planar Handbook) and probably quite a few others I can’t remember at the moment-not too shabby. No focus-play a cleric of the Sovereign Host (Eberron) with the Worldly Focus feat (Faiths of Eberron) and you don’t need the focus (and the feat could be adapted for other settings and other casting classes if the DM allows it-the feat flavour-wise is great for druids). You’re allowed a spell component pouch so I’m not sure how much limit that will have for casters. In the feat it does say that someone else can cast a spell from a wand, staff or scroll on you, you just can’t do so yourself. A buddy can hand you a potion which you can ingest without trouble so make one of the groups non VoP characters the potion carrier (wizard since spellbook is not allowed for VoP). Simple clothing only is no problem. Only enough food for one day? Take the feat at sixth and you automatically get the sustenance class feature so you’ll never need to eat again. Either that or play an Elan (XPH) or Warforged (Eberron) and you’ll never need to eat at all (see the SRD for Elans). Feats and class features are not at all limited so soulknife’s mindblade and soulbow’s (CPsi) mindarrow are still perfectly useable. Animal companions, familiars and special mounts are not at all limited, nor are feats or class features for the most part (kensai from CW is potentially in trouble, depending on DM thinking). Grafts are out, but that leads us to something that is a bit of a grey area rules wise-symbionts. Are they separate creatures, like familiars/companions, or would they be considered grafts for VoP purposes and thus not allowed (I can see it going either way and both would seem to be valid interpretations).
It is certainly an interesting feat and I wouldn't say it's overpowered but there are ways to compensate for the tradeoffs. Various racial abilities and/or class features could undercut some of the apparent restrrictions (raptoran/avariel/aarakocra ability to fly as one possibility, etc.)
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I know all the bad broken things about the vow of poverty, but has anyone had any good experience with this monster of a feat?
Yes. see this thread of OYT.
In the feat it does say that someone else can cast a spell from a wand, staff or scroll on you, you just can’t do so yourself. A buddy can hand you a potion which you can ingest without trouble so make one of the groups non VoP characters the potion carrier (wizard since spellbook is not allowed for VoP). Simple clothing only is no problem. Only enough food for one day? Feats and class features are not at all limited so soulknife’s mindblade and soulbow’s (CPsi) mindarrow are still perfectly useable. Animal companions, familiars and special mounts are not at all limited, nor are feats or class features for the most part (kensai from CW is potentially in trouble, depending on DM thinking). Grafts are out, but that leads us to something that is a bit of a grey area rules wise-symbionts. Are they separate creatures, like familiars/companions, or...
I think things like these go against the spirit of the feat. I don't think it should be allowed if your players are going to have a random character to carry potions, scrolls, wands, etc. just to use on the VoP character. I wouldn't get upset about the wizard or cleric casting a spell or giving a potion in time of need. I think it was said before that the Mature rating goes beyond R-rated content. I'm starting to think this feat is actualy a good one, but also a powder keg of munchkinism.
Fizz
Vow of Poverty is one of those feats which can be good, but also opens the door to muchkinisim.
Any character who takes it however, -should- take to the spirit of such a vow. This means that having another character hold potions for him/her should not be allowed. A character who takes this feat should never act with the mentality of "Well, it's not -techiniclly- against the rules...". Not having access to wands and such is one of the few disadvantages this feat gives, so it's one that should be enforced.
this feat is not broken and not a monster feat at all; I have had players run it and used it myself without any game issues though a gm can really gimp players with this feat if they give out a lot of powerful items and over power characters with this feat is they are miserly and dont give much treasure or only low powered items; every gm has to find the happy balance and should be checking his players characters overall effectiveness in various situations anyway; so this is not a problem feat at all; especially in the light of some others I could state.
This is supposed to be a good feat given in a vow; the abilities from the feat are supposed to be the rewards of successfully maintaining the vow; if you have problem with this feat; it may be that the gm and the player need to sit down and discuss the diety who this vow/contract is with and what is expected and the whole ethics system in place.
Over the last year or so this Vow has come up in discussion a few times; and I still dont see what the problem is unless you are running a bunch of farmers with common weapons; and this guy is a monk with the vow; sure he will be a lot tuffer; but comapared to a heroeic fighter with good gear; even a monk with this vow is nothing special compared to other heroes. This vow is certainly for heroic types; if you not running a game with heroes; dont use this feat.
Vow of Poverty is one of those feats which can be good, but also opens the door to muchkinisim.
Any character who takes it however, -should- take to the spirit of such a vow. This means that having another character hold potions for him/her should not be allowed. A character who takes this feat should never act with the mentality of "Well, it's not -techiniclly- against the rules...". Not having access to wands and such is one of the few disadvantages this feat gives, so it's one that should be enforced.
Take a look at the rules text for the feat. The notes about the potions and someone else using using wands, staves, scrolls, etc. are SPECIFICALLY set out in the text of the feat. The wizard would hold ALL of the groups potions, and could hand it to ANY group member including the VoPer as needed. Adapting to the circumstances and making best use of the rules as they exist may be powergaming but not munchkinism per the definition that Fake Healer, Fatespinner and others have noted
Take a look at the rules text for the feat. The notes about the potions and someone else using using wands, staves, scrolls, etc. are SPECIFICALLY set out in the text of the feat. The wizard would hold ALL of the groups potions, and could hand it to ANY group member including the VoPer as needed. Adapting to the circumstances and making best use of the rules as they exist may be powergaming but not munchkinism per the definition that Fake Healer, Fatespinner and others have noted
I'm no fan of this feat but I'll note that there is a problem with this angle. The VoP character takes all his share of the treasure and gives it away. So any wands etc. cast by the rest of the party on the VoP character are coming directly out of their share of the treasure. Now its probably not an issue to buy a wand of enlarge person and use this every combat but the VoP player can't just designate some one else as the carrier for all his good stuff as he has no money whatsoever to buy good stuff.
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Take a look at the rules text for the feat. The notes about the potions and someone else using using wands, staves, scrolls, etc. are SPECIFICALLY set out in the text of the feat. The wizard would hold ALL of the groups potions, and could hand it to ANY group member including the VoPer as needed. Adapting to the circumstances and making best use of the rules as they exist may be powergaming but not munchkinism per the definition that Fake Healer, Fatespinner and others have notedVow of Poverty is one of those feats which can be good, but also opens the door to muchkinisim.
Any character who takes it however, -should- take to the spirit of such a vow. This means that having another character hold potions for him/her should not be allowed. A character who takes this feat should never act with the mentality of "Well, it's not -techiniclly- against the rules...". Not having access to wands and such is one of the few disadvantages this feat gives, so it's one that should be enforced.
I hate to say it, because while you're technically correct, you're actually wrong.
What you're overlooking there is the spirit in which the feat is intended. A Vow of Poverty means you forsake the needs and wants of yourself for those of others. It means while you may have thoughts of selfishness and greed, you do not act upon them.
A character who takes VoP, and then designates someone to essentially be his mule is violating his vow by proxy, being greedy and possessive while not technically taking ownership of the items in question.
Seriously, if you are going to have someone carry "your share" of the potions and so forth for you, the easiest way to sidestep VoP would be to take it at level 3, then Leadership at 6 and get a cohort to buff/heal you all the time. Its the same basic thing as previously mentioned, except now the character is an NPC you control.
Its still cheating the system, and I would disallow any use of it in such a way for any game I DM.
someone cannot carry anything for you; your vow of poverty has a specific list of what you own; if someone carries something for you then you still own it and have violated your vow. A person with this vow should only own those things on the list or that they have worked out as a modification with the gm and not really feel any ownership to those things by a genuine willingness to give them to someone who has less than they. Some difficult things with this vow are like when a player with this vow is a crafter and wants to make items to give away to the poor, but needs materials and tools to craft with; how a gm handles this can lead to warping the vow. Usually these players borrow tools from other players or npc craftsmen and perhaps the materials are found or donated, but this whole thing can be a stickler for the player and gm even if the supposed intent is to give away the result.
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i think VoP is awesome and fairly balanced. it really hampers nonmonk/nondruid characters. not that other clases shouldn't try to play it. check out that picture of the half-orc handing a loaf of bread to the orphan and tell me you don't want to play him as a poor paladin or ranger.
the feat doesn't bestow enough remarkable goodies on you to make up for what you lose. even if the gp value seems a bit high at middle levels, it is a programmed kit and really is just there to keep you from getting killed by kobolds (no offense, wolfgang) while you vanquish tougher evils.
certainly, the feat does crap for your ability to hit and do damage. in a party with ioun stones, monk's belts, bracers of might, keen weapons, and critical bursts, the VoP guy is second fiddle to other options for melee combat.
the bonus feats aren't that good. there should be about ten more exalted feats.
finally, getting/making/finding/stealing/buying stuff is important in dnd. the VoP character had better be reasonable in combat and had better be in a campaign full of colorful enemies and compelling scenes, because he's forsaken a lot of the fun and figring the rest of his party won't miss out on.
in the end, it's up to a dm to balance a campaign, not a chart of magic item values. tougher encounters, more stuff for the other players, magic dead zones where the feat stops, moral dilemmae that shut the feat down until an atonement is reached. woldn't it be cool at least once, to play a VoP high level character with no benefits, until he and his friends completed a dangerous quest? sign me up?