Are Ogre Hooks considered one handed weapons for Ogres?
This is actually a relevant question. In the Player's Guide to Runelords, the Ogre Hook is described as a two handed weapon, but damage types are provided for medium and small sizes.
I have a player who is trying to obtain / purchase / wield one that medium sized (and does d12 as described). I have maintained that a medium sized version would be a two-handed weapon based upon what is listed in the Player's Guide.
But if it's a one handed weapon for a large creature, and described as a two handed weapon for that reason for medium creatures it makes a difference. Why? The Monkey's Grip Feat (from the Complete Warrior) allows for wielding a large weapon as a medium weapon, however the number of hands required to wield it does not change. So if ogres wield them one-handed, then a player with that particular feat could wield a large version one-handed.
There are two issues here really and they're easily mixed up. Is the write up showing a Large one-handed weapon that has been written up for medium and small sizes and therefore described as two-handed; or are those descriptions are actually the medium and small sized versions and are they meant to be taken as two handed for those sizes?
If this question is really complicated, let me sum it up in a few simple phrases:
Can a player have a "medium sized" version of the ogre hook made?
Is a "medium sized" ogre hook a one or two handed weapon?
If a "medium sized" ogre hook is a one handed weapon, does it still do d12?
I am in an ongoing debate over this.. so I appreciate the reply in advance.
Sorry,
I made that impossibly long winded and complex: let me try again-
Would a 'Medium' Ogre Hook be a one handed or two handed weapon?
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Sorry,
I made that impossibly long winded and complex: let me try again-
Would a 'Medium' Ogre Hook be a one handed or two handed weapon?
An ogre hook is a 2-handed weapon regardless of size. If a medium character wanted to weild a small ogre hook with one hand they would take a penalty to hit for using a weapon of inappropriate size.
I couldn't find any text stating that ogres use them one handed, the only thing I read was in the description that says "Usually created by giants and their ilk, Ogre hooks are commonly size Large and awkward for most humanoids to use", nothing about that they weild them one-handed, however if you wish to make a one-handed one that ogres use then you could say a large one-handed one would have the stats of a medium 2-handed one and that would be a fairly correct assumption, just not what is "officially" in the Guide.FH
An ogre hook is a 2-handed weapon regardless of size. If a medium character wanted to weild a small ogre hook with one hand they would take a penalty to hit for using a weapon of inappropriate size.
That makes sense of my way of reading it. After re-reading the way the PHB describes equipment, and observing that the Two-Handed Designation is for the medium and small damage values.. It seems obvious but it can be tricky when you've got players trying to read what they want to read into the text.
I couldn't find any text stating that ogres use them one handed, the only thing I read was in the description that says "Usually created by giants and their ilk, Ogre hooks are commonly size Large and awkward for most humanoids to use", nothing about that they weild them one-handed, however if you wish to make a one-handed one that ogres use then you could say a large one-handed one would have the stats of a medium 2-handed one and that would be a fairly correct assumption, just not what is "officially" in the Guide.
Nah, I'm trying to curtail munchkinism, not enable it. I am going with that they are two handed weapons regardless of size.
It would be good to get an official ruling on this one.
I took the "awkward to wield" comment as "that's why its two handed", and that it would actually be a one handed weapon for Ogres...
...Except I agree with everything you stated above here that if it is listed as two-handed it should be two-handed for all.
Counter to that though, if its two-handed for ogres, a Large Ogre Hook as "most are" would not be awkward to wield, it would be nigh impossible.
Looking at the art in the various books, it's clear that people have very different ideas of what an Ogre Hook is supposed to be. The picture in the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide depicts a meathook-type weapon, while the cover art from The Hook Mountain Massacre depicts ogres carrying two different types of hooked weapons. Some of the ogre's weapons are short hooks similar to sickles, while others have long wooden hafts suited for two-handed use.
Creative Director
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The art we've had in for ogre hooks is pretty much across the board, which is one of the problems of inventing a new weapon and illustrating it before you have solid reference handy. The hook itself is a two-handed weapon, no matter what size of monster uses it. The one described in the Player's Guide is a Medium sized version of the weapon. An ogre would wield a Large sized one (which would do 3d6 points of damage). If he had a Medium sized ogre hook, he'd take a –2 penalty on attack rolls with it, and it'd do 1d12 points of damage.
Weapon size is a pretty clunky, murky set of rules. For more details see page 113 of the PHB.
The art we've had in for ogre hooks is pretty much across the board, which is one of the problems of inventing a new weapon and illustrating it before you have solid reference handy. The hook itself is a two-handed weapon, no matter what size of monster uses it...
I described the ogre hook to my players as similar to a jagged-edged pruning hook (or guisarme head) set onto an axe handle, advising them to ignore the sketch in the Player's Guide. Smaller, lighter ones exist: These are basically sickles, as already covered in the rules.
The art we've had in for ogre hooks is pretty much across the board, which is one of the problems of inventing a new weapon and illustrating it before you have solid reference handy. The hook itself is a two-handed weapon, no matter what size of monster uses it. The one described in the Player's Guide is a Medium sized version of the weapon. An ogre would wield a Large sized one (which would do 3d6 points of damage). If he had a Medium sized ogre hook, he'd take a –2 penalty on attack rolls with it, and it'd do 1d12 points of damage.
Weapon size is a pretty clunky, murky set of rules. For more details see page 113 of the PHB.
Hey.. thanks for making it offical. No sarcasm intended, honestly.
Yeah, I came to correct conclusion, but I had to sit down with the PHB and really dissect it. There's not a lot of intuitive examples.
Then I had a player trying to use Monkey's Grip feat on top of that.. (Which I discovered there are two versions of that, the one in the Complete Warrior is less exploitive).
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Unrelated note, I would have thought they would have cleaned up grappling from the old days.. I guess not.
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Unrelated note, I would have thought they would have cleaned up grappling from the old days.. I guess not.
not to threadjack, but 85% of the grappling rules arn't difficult, the hardest part is understanding what you can and can't do, and what check it is. If you have a PC who is a grappling monk like one of my players (also an NCAA wrestler) you learn the rules quickly. You can sum it up in about 1/2 a page at 12 point font if you limit each choice to one sentence + the opposed check - nothing compared to prep-ing spells for epic villains.
not to threadjack, but 85% of the grappling rules arn't difficult, the hardest part is understanding what you can and can't do, and what check it is...You can sum it up in about 1/2 a page at 12 point font if you limit each choice to one sentence + the opposed check.
Have you done this? Because that would be quite useful.
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not to threadjack, but 85% of the grappling rules arn't difficult, the hardest part is understanding what you can and can't do, and what check it is...You can sum it up in about 1/2 a page at 12 point font if you limit each choice to one sentence + the opposed check.
Have you done this? Because that would be quite useful.
Since one of my players is a grappling monk, I would have your babies, Kirstov, if you'd be so kind as to share this half page!
I would love that sheet of notes too!
My guys had to wrestle Elyrium just to lower her AC enough to hit enough to keep pace with her Fast healing and Damage Resistance...
..and it was a lengthy bit of head scratching and page turning.
Much appreciated in advance!
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Have you done this? Because that would be quite useful.
not to threadjack, but 85% of the grappling rules arn't difficult, the hardest part is understanding what you can and can't do, and what check it is...You can sum it up in about 1/2 a page at 12 point font if you limit each choice to one sentence + the opposed check.
I have done it in the past - my hard drive has since crashed - I'll try whipping one up tomorrow night and see if I can get it done beteen when I get home and the girlfriend comes over, otherwise it won't be done til Sat
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I have done it in the past - my hard drive has since crashed - I'll try whipping one up tomorrow night and see if I can get it done beteen when I get home and the girlfriend comes over, otherwise it won't be done til SatHave you done this? Because that would be quite useful.
not to threadjack, but 85% of the grappling rules arn't difficult, the hardest part is understanding what you can and can't do, and what check it is...You can sum it up in about 1/2 a page at 12 point font if you limit each choice to one sentence + the opposed check.
I have one written up - really rough verson, but if you want it you cam email me at (myscreenname)@hotmail.com