I've been trying to pick together the changes that 4th edition is planning from the various posts here, but it's starting to give me a headache--so just to get everything on one post:
Apparently the races are being changed alot. There will be numerous subraces including some that were previously celestials (like eladrin elves). Something is going on with orcs and dwarves.
The classes are being bumped up by another ten levels to give a smoother growth curve to a max of 30.
The planes are getting another overhaul with "higher" planes floating around in something like the ethereal, much as demiplanes did in 2nd. Demons are apparently elemental in nature now and devils are...well I don't know.
Rules are being streamlined and simplified so making an NPC that isn't completely bogus won't take DM's a good afternoon perusing a dozen different books for feats and spells and whatnot.
Spells are different. More freeform in a Monte Cookesque way. Not sure what that means but if it's anything like his World of Darkness setting than hoo-freakin-ray!
Please anyone who can elaborate on the above, please do. I'm just trying to pull together what everyone knows in one place so I don't have to go trying to follow links to everywhere and read every blessed post on here to figure things out. Figured our fellow readers might appreciate it too.
EN World has a summary page that you might find more useful:
Here's a list of player races that I've seen WoTC mention so there's a good chance they're gonna be in 4th ed, albeit changed a bit from their 3rd ed incarnations:
Human
Tiefling
Elf (Now they're nature worshippers not unlike 3rd ed Wood Elves)
Eladrin (now they are cousins of the elves. they are magically-inclined and aloof, somewhat like gray elves of 3rd ed.)
Dwarf
Halfling
Half-elf
Haven't seen any mention of gnomes or half-orcs, so they're still up in the air.
Okay, having read up on the whole 4th edition thing in detail, I think I have a coherant opinion (though it's subject to change).
Granted I still don't know what the deal with succubus' are, but apparently it's big.
I like the new cosmology. It allows for the established settings to keep whatever planes they have without abandoning a single overarching cosmology. I would love to see a multiverse where all the different campaign settings are connected again (though I could do without the popping back and forth of guys in spelljammer ships from Darksun to Faerun to Ravenloft. It's what pretty much killed 2nd edition). Shadowfell and the Fae realm do remind me a lot of the Shadowlands and the Umbra from World of Darkness, and there's a considerable amount of irony to that.
I love the Elemental Vortex, the idea that rival elementals can actually have wars now. I always thought it was a bit lame that there were supposed to be these big hatreds between elementals, but each realm was so incredibly hostile to the other as to make the idea of two rival elementals meeting each other ridiculous. It's also got a bit of Limbo in it, which I love. The Abyss as a huge rotting cancer in the Elemental flux is just great--even if it feels a lot like Malfeas and the Wyrm from World of darkness. I just hope the demons therein will get enough of a facelift to be genuinely vile and sick. I'm afraid the denizens of this terrible place will be these totally lame big red-skinned guys with horns and bat wings.
I also love the Silver Sea that the celestial realms are in. I like that the Vortex is the embodiment of matter where the Silver Sea is the embodiment of mind and spirit. That's classy. I like the idea of nebulous realms within this mercurial dimension that are the domains of the gods, some abandoned, some vast and teeming.
The Nine Hells on the other hand are just lame. I don't buy that out of all the planes that only one plane ever had the celestials decide to oust their god. Nowhere else? I would think it would happen at least as often as gods getting killed by other gods. Anyhow, so now they're all cursed and bound to their plane by their god right...and mortal magic can summon them? Huh? Like the Summon Monster I spell? I thought a god bound them to their plane? So now they're amassing power and souls in their twisted plane so they can what? What's the goal to amassing power on the Material plane if you're stuck in Hell? Honestly I'd think they'd all just try to get summoned out so they could leave and set up shop in some nice abandoned godly plane somewhere. And how do humans know about devils anyway to start making infernal pacts with them? I mean they're all imprisoned right? And there's just the one plane with devils. I'm suprised anyone even knows what a devil is in this setting. So yeah, big problems.
The level up system sounds awesome. I like the idea of a smoother progression between levels and more goodies per level. I also like all the at will/use per encounter/use per day special abilities. Particularly the staff, tome and orb the wizard gets. The classes likewise look cool. It's like they boiled down the fifty some odd core classes into a dozen or so supercharged wicked awesome ones. No complaints there.
The races seem like a mess. It's like they picked out of a hat. I don't know what makes tieflings worth putting in the main book. Or two kinds of elf. Plus I hear they're mainstreaming Warforged and Changelings into the core setting which seems totally out of place. Getting rid of half-orcs is okay...I mean I liked them but they were new to 3.0 anyway. I just wish the races in the main book were more meat and potatoes--the guys who you see all the time. Granted most settings have been too human heavy and too ethnic for my taste anyway. Why include something in a main book if they only live under two mountains in the whole world or in one big creepy forest and a chain of far off islands. I would just like to see a handful of races that are numerous cosmopolitan folk of the world who actually mingle together and might even adventure together. Curse you Tolkien!
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Just a couple things ...
I also think I like the idea of taking the best parts of the seemingly millions of new 'core' classes (calling them ALL core classes kind of dilutes the whole meaning of 'core' doesn't?) and adding them to the actual core classes. Between all the new classes and prestige classes, it was getting pretty ridiculous.
A perfect example is from one of the WOTC blogs that mentioned the new class design philosophy of "A kills B and takes B's stuff". The example given was the Ranger and the Scout. I have always been a big fan of the Ranger, and when the Scout class debuted in Complete Adventurer, I thought how cool those two classes would work together. I really got into playing multi class Ranger/Scouts. Anyway, apparently one of the ways WOTC is beefing up the Ranger is by giving him some or all of the Scout's 'stuff' or abilities (and, presumably, eliminating the Scout as a class). That kind of class tinkering sounds ok to me.
Speaking of multi classing, they are apparently putting a great deal of effort into making that system work better. It sounds like they might even try to intergrate a way to once again start playing a multi class character right from the start, which I think is a no brainer. You could do it in First Edition AD&D, I think you could do it in 2E. You could even do it (although it was a little clunky) in 3.0 Edition.
One correction to the above post: Half Orcs were not new in 3.0. They were part of First Edition but, for some reason Second Edition removed them. I was actually glad to see they were put back in for Third Edition!
Oh, and Warforged and Teiflings? Horrible! I hate Ebberon and hate the idea that it seem to be becoming more 'core'
Does anyone have a list of what the new core classes are going to be?
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Does anyone have a list of what the new core classes are going to be?
WOTC is being a bit guarded with that answer, but I know they have pretty much confirmed (or at least mentioned) Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue as well as Ranger, Barbarian and Sorcerer. I don't know if there has been any talk of the Bard (which I get the feeling some of the designers specifically do NOT like as a class) or the Druid.
Bottom line is that they have definitely said they will not release the full list until the preview products come out next year.
I dunno. I really think some of the problems with 3.0 were pretty fundamental and hard to shake. First and foremost was "what game am I playing??" It was like the designers had Greyhawk on a string and would dangle it out in front of you--right up until you came out and said "hey, I think we're playing Greyhawk". Then they'd slap you.
One of the things I was so hoping for with fourth edition was either something completely sans setting like 2nd edition or with a fully integrated original setting that was a completely new "core" setting. What I had really dreamed they'd do (but never will now *huff*) was to build it like the D20 Future book. One chapter sandwiched between the equipment part and all the rules and spell junk would be a four page crash synopsis on each setting. A cliff notes version for people who need to get spun up on Faerun vs Greyhawk vs Eberron vs Darksun. It'd have major gods, major enemies (like the Red Wizards of Thay or the Empire of Iuz), major countries of import (Like Furyondy or Cormyr), and any campaign specific flavor text or campaign options (like no goblins, or loads of thri-kreen, or ghosts as PC characters)
As for races I'd include? Heh, here's where I'd dump things on their ear. I'd mention the elves and dwarves but it'd be like--these guys have a lot of impact on the world and here's their stat adjustments if you want to play one, but they're reclusive with such long lives that you'll never really see one. Then (and this is where fans would track me down and lynch me) I would make up a whole new four to six races using the stuff from the old edition that was the most fun. Something like a goblin-dromite, something like a githyanki, something like a half-dragon, something like a war troll, something like a minotaur-ogier (or -yuck- tauren for those who don't know Wheel of Time). The important thing is each and every race would live together and contribute to the whole. They'd be one integrated society, each with their own likes and dislikes for their kindred, their predjudices and accomplishments. Then I would run away and live somewhere where no one could find me.
Your race shakeup is reminiscent of Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. Maybe you have the build of another "alternate PHB?"
Yeah, I just wish it was "core". I love Arcana Unearthed, but I thought it was too campaign specific for a core book (half the race backstories are way too tied to Diamond Throne to be usable without it) and there were too many tired half-animal guys for my taste. I like what's there and still try to run a campaign of it every once in a while, but wow is it hard compared to say a homebrew D&D game.
I mean sure I could write up these races for my own games, but it wouldn't solve the problem for D&D. The Tolkien races are just busted. They're isolationist guys who live in far away areas (well accept for halflings who I would probably keep). I just wish there were other races that could fill in the much needed role of "dudes who can be a shopkeeper in town without feeling weird". Everyone else feels like a 2-5% of the population. I'd like races that feel more like 30-45%.
Oh, and there'd be "half" stuff, but it'd all be templates. So you could have a half-orc human but you could also have a half-orc dwarf or yeesh elf.
I guess I'm just sayin' that if I had D&D to remold in my image I would probably do it like I'm saying.
Heck maybe someday I'll make my own D20 setting and then you can play it.
Okay. So I'm curious exactly how you want to redo things, because I've made a couple of Unearthed Arcana settings and I'm curious how you're wedding the backstory with Greyhawk of all weird things.
Sorry if anyone else gets lost here...
Do the Giants make the Sibecci here too? Seems weird to have them be created in identical ways in every setting they're in but without them having been uplifted from simple animals they kinda' lose their whole backstory.
Likewise there's supposed to be a whole Litorian civilization that's out there somewhere that gets discovered--they're kind of like aiel lionmen, but without the pressure of their society adapting to more modern society they just sort of turn into lion guys.
The Quicklings don't seem too rough, but it seems like they sort of define a lot of what fey need to be like in the rest of the setting--and their ideas about religion are a bit odd in a setting with really overt gods and clerics.
Mohj I guess could be the Tiamat side of the Dragonborn (or whatever those guys are called from Races of the Dragon who slowly transform into dragon people) though you'd think then they'd be closer to dragonborn with chromatic powers than mohj. Mohj are weird. They're more like iguana people who think they're cool because of the change but aren't nearly as good as their D&D equivalents. They mostly just lumber after Captain Kirk on some desert planet until he's able to kill them with a homemade bamboo zipgun.
Giants are probably the easiest, though they're kindof supposed to be the stepdads of all civilization--kind of hard when elves and humans seem pretty darn established. Plus it'd be a bit hard to muddle through some of the relationships between the half giant race, the various giants in the game (hill giants, frost giants, etc.) and this other civilized race who are kinda' small for giants (more ogres really) but who try to be everyone's dad--at least until they do the racial ritual to become crazed buttkickers.
My biggest hassle was trying to keep the flavor of the original writeups while delicately peeling it away from the historical events of the Diamond Throne. Ultimately pretty hard, even in a homebrew. Trying to do it in an established setting...whew. Good luck to you. I'm curious how you do it.
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I think I was going to chuck the Sibeccai, or make them wizard experiments that were released into the jungle and survived.
I was trying to link or replace the rakasta with the litorians; just using them for a crunch template. I had the kernels of an idea to have a Savage Land or Pellucidar type place at the south pole; the rakasta came from there. The rakasta presence on the Isle of Dread would be travelers and/or traders from there.
The giants were going to be linked to the Olman tribes somehow; they were the legendary civilization inventers, with their god (my retcon) Quetzocoatl; they were going to be the how and why of his gifting the Olmans with civilization. They'd be the craftsmen or architects behind the pyramids.
I was thinking that there might be wild tribes of giants in the jungle, and also their blood ran through Olmans down to this day. The ritual feats could be used by such Olmans to unlock their giant heritage.
It was all kindof rough drafty.
The little elf guys--I didn't have a lot on them, hell just some little elves in the woods. I was working on figuring out "why" that one abandoned elven tree city was the way it was. I wasn't thinking about their religious ideas too much.
A lot of the backstory I was ready to chuck or heavily modify.
Mojh, I felt, didn't have to be directly linked to dragons; either Tlaloc or the Mayan earth goddess(can't think of her name right now) both have serpent motifs.
The mojh transformation stems from being immersed in an ancient holy cenote, like the healing wells of Chichen Itza. It's part of a mystery cult dating from ancient Olman times. Don't know which god I'd've linked it to yet.
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For me, too, it helps that it isn't slap dab in the middle of Perrenland; it's going down way south in the jungle
(where Cauldron and Sasserine were added.....) where anything goes.
Same idea as Xen'Drik--you can add all sortsa weird stuff without the rest of the world being too hip to what's going down.
I was also thinking the giants would be from Mechanus.
I really dislike modrons...
*blinks* You don't like modrons?
Weird. That's kind of like shooting D&D around with someone and them saying they don't like Beholders, or Githyanki, or Dragons. They just seem like such a staple.
Oh the 4th edition beholder drawing looks like butt by the way. They are really super scaley nowadays--I mean draconic scaley and their eyestalks are starting to look like rayguns. Really I think the beholder on the cover of the second edition monster manual is the only one I've ever really liked. The third edition one is kinda' dumb looking too.
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Oh the 4th edition beholder drawing looks like butt by the way. They are really super scaley nowadays--I mean draconic scaley and their eyestalks are starting to look like rayguns. Really I think the beholder on the cover of the second edition monster manual is the only one I've ever really liked. The third edition one is kinda' dumb looking too.
The 1st edition MM got it right, IMHO. The rest I'm "meh..." on.
I wonder...in all of 3e., has there been a new monster that is cool enough to become a new "staple Dungeons and Dragons" monster, like the beholder or the githyanki or the drow?
Oh the 4th edition beholder drawing looks like butt by the way. They are really super scaley nowadays--I mean draconic scaley and their eyestalks are starting to look like rayguns. Really I think the beholder on the cover of the second edition monster manual is the only one I've ever really liked. The third edition one is kinda' dumb looking too.The 1st edition MM got it right, IMHO. The rest I'm "meh..." on.
I wonder...in all of 3e., has there been a new monster that is cool enough to become a new "staple Dungeons and Dragons" monster, like the beholder or the githyanki or the drow?
Slaughterkings (BoVD) come to mind...
Loads. I actually went and posted some of my favorites on your other thread. The MM III is actually my favorite of all time actually and is stuffed full of monsters I really love. Here's a reprint of my list though if we're talking all of third edition I have to add guys from 1 and 2 like the Gray Render, Avolakia, Famine Spirit, and Yak Folk to the list. But yeah here's my list from the other post.
(III)
Visilight
Death Giant
Witchknife
Stonesinger
Quaraphon
Ragewalker
(IV)
Lodestone Marauder
Zern
(V)
Mockery Bugs
Ushemoi
Hey 'Cleaver, just want to say it is nice to see you back here posting.
Thanks! Heard about the new edition and figured if there was anywhere where I could find out the details and hear some intelligent, thorough discussion of them it'd be here among you fine fellows.
I wonder...in all of 3e., has there been a new monster that is cool enough to become a new "staple Dungeons and Dragons" monster, like the beholder or the githyanki or the drow?
Im sure there are more...But the Grey Render and Grick definitly seem like core staple D&D monsters to me now.
To sum it up in one word:
Sucks.