I generally do not consider myself a hateful person. I generally do not wish ill on anyone. I find that hate and anger destroys my own soul (or my emotional well being for my atheistic brethren) and revenge never truly satisfies.
I hate Osama bin Laden and wish him dead. Anyone who watches the senseless death of innocents* while laughing and patting themselves on the back for bringing about those deaths has lost any vestige of what it is to be human. If there is a god, I can not image such a being wanting anything to do with someone so contemptuous of that god's own creations. If there is such a being, it can blow me.
I apologize for this rant. It is just something I needed to get off my chest. We can get back to flame baiting all the 4e fan boys. I am looking at you, Sebastian.
*Considering the majority of people in the towers never did anything to harm Osama and, most likely, did not even know who he was, I classify them as innocents.
I doubt there's going to be anyone here that takes offense or disagrees with you. I had kind of assumed most people felt the same way, honestly.
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Maybe instead, if we ever catch him (assuming he's not been dead for several years now), I'm not sure killing him is the best way to go.
Instead, we should have a sign-up list. You get on the list and you get a time and a day for a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to go to whatever prison he's in and punch him in the face. Make it good and hard.
-Skeld
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Maybe instead, if we ever catch him (assuming he's not been dead for several years now), I'm not sure killing him is the best way to go.
Instead, we should have a sign-up list. You get on the list and you get a time and a day for a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to go to whatever prison he's in and punch him in the face. Make it good and hard.
-Skeld
Good idea. ;)
Now if only people would agree to my idea that there needs to be a Constitutional amendment allowing every single American the opportunity to once a year, without any form of repercussion, walk up to one politician and punch him/her in the face.
The politician who got his nose broken the most times over the course of a year has to leave office.
I doubt there's going to be anyone here that takes offense or disagrees with you. I had kind of assumed most people felt the same way, honestly.
Most 'westerners' I am sure.
I did not expect an opposing view. I would be curious to see it. I could see Paizo removing this post because I say I wish someone dead. I would, of course, comply as I see a 'no wishing someone dead openly on the forums' rule as generally a good thing.
I also agree killing him outright would be a bad public relations move. We would simply make a martyr out of him. I would much rather see him humiliated. Caught red handed being un-Muslim. Maybe that would finally make the extremist stop and think about what they are doing. I am not holding my breath. I do not believe in miracles.
I was highly amused by his request for (all) Americans to convert to Islam. All I could think was, well, maybe I'll convert when he does.
I had an idea for a new reality show sort of like that...it's called "celebrity b&%%~slap" were a secret crew films somebody coming out of nowhere to haul off a nice haymaker on the idiotic celebrity of the week or in this case politician or militant leader....
I was highly amused by his request for (all) Americans to convert to Islam. All I could think was, well, maybe I'll convert when he does.
Mwbeeler: 1 Osama bin Laden: 0
I was highly amused by his request for (all) Americans to convert to Islam. All I could think was, well, maybe I'll convert when he does.
When I heard about that, I just thought to myself, "Um, surely you don't expect anyone to take you seriously now, right?"
"Tonight on Celebrity B&@!+slap what you've all been waiting for-osama bin laden!!" roll the theme music
When I heard about that, I just thought to myself, "Um, surely you don't expect anyone to take you seriously now, right?"
Sadly, I believe there are quite a few misguided souls who do take him seriously.
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Anyone notice in the new video that Ozzie had dyed and cut his beard? Either the guy in the video is not Osama bin Laden or the old cook has fallen for the sin that leads to all other sins, vanity.
So as mwbeeler said: I'll convert when you do...
Why you should not cut beards in islam: Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Hadith # 780: The Prophet said, "Do the opposite of what the pagans do. Keep the beards and cut the moustaches short.
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I generally do not consider myself a hateful person. I generally do not wish ill on anyone. I find that hate and anger destroys my own soul (or my emotional well being for my atheistic brethren) and revenge never truly satisfies.
I hate Osama bin Laden and wish him dead. Anyone who watches the senseless death of innocents* while laughing and patting themselves on the back for bringing about those deaths has lost any vestige of what it is to be human. If there is a god, I can not image such a being wanting anything to do with someone so contemptuous of that god's own creations. If there is such a being, it can blow me.
I apologize for this rant. It is just something I needed to get off my chest. We can get back to flame baiting all the 4e fan boys. I am looking at you, Sebastian.
*Considering the majority of people in the towers never did anything to harm Osama and, most likely, did not even know who he was, I classify them as innocents.
Ummm... you're preaching to the choir. On the topic of you not being a hateful person, I've got enough hate for the both of us. You're covered.
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When I heard about that, I just thought to myself, "Um, surely you don't expect anyone to take you seriously now, right?"Sadly, I believe there are quite a few misguided souls who do take him seriously.
Meh. I doubt it. Most Muslims are not radicals, and of the few that are, only a fraction of them would act on their radical ideas. In fact, a poll taken of American Muslims showed that only 1 in the 1,000 Muslims polled thought that the Jihad was a good idea. (Newsweek, sometime in 2007)
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Now if only people would agree to my idea that there needs to be a Constitutional amendment allowing every single American the opportunity to once a year, without any form of repercussion, walk up to one politician and punch him/her in the face.
The politician who got his nose broken the most times over the course of a year has to leave office.
How could I pick just one?
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I think the U.S. has much bigger problems than Osama Bin Laden right now. He horrified us, embarrassed us and - I think - successfully lured us into doing something very stupid. I despise him but I can't think of a better Al Qaeda recruiting drive than the invasion of Iraq.
At this point his capture will do little except make most Americans feel validated for a month or two.
The whole thing depresses the hell out of me. I'm sad for our troops and for the innocent Iraqi's caught up in all this crap.
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I think the U.S. has much bigger problems than Osama Bin Laden right now. He horrified us, embarrassed us and - I think - successfully lured us into doing something very stupid. I despise him but I can't think of a better Al Qaeda recruiting drive than the invasion of Iraq.
At this point his capture will do little except make most Americans feel validated for a month or two.
The whole thing depresses the hell out of me. I'm sad for our troops and for the innocent Iraqi's caught up in all this crap.
Amen, bro.
I'm not by any means a supporter of Bin Laden or terroists, but I think that there are plenty of American soldiers who have launched missiles and detonated bombs on foreign soil that have killed civilians and then they have given eachother a big pat on the back or high five for the good job they've done serving their country. I hate it when people get too self righteous. People don't like to see themselves in a bad light and always look for other people to blame for things.
As another example, there was lots of cheering in the states when big bad evil doer Sadam Hussain was finally caught, and yet the American government helped bring him into power in the first place and supported his regime for many years so that americans could have cheap and easy access to Iraqi oil for all those big ass cars and SUVs on the road. The government and media paint people in the way they choose to support their own agendas. As far as I'm concerned the president of the U.S is the biggest terrorist on the planet.
Bush, Osama, they're on the same team, man. And I'm not kidding about that.
Neither of them has any credibility. As an aside, rather than killing anyone, I would rather see them both brought to trial by a lucid judiciary with REAL evidence (as if we could ever collect it).
Bush, Osama, they're on the same team, man. And I'm not kidding about that.
Neither of them has any credibility. As an aside, rather than killing anyone, I would rather see them both brought to trial by a lucid judiciary with REAL evidence (as if we could ever collect it).
but.. but... that would be fair! and lawful! where's the fun in that?!?
on a separate note: who else finds it scary that a republican think tank said that Bush should install himself president for life and to nuke iraq?
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As far as I'm concerned the president of the U.S is the biggest terrorist on the planet.As do a lot of Americans, myself included.
FH
I missed that quote. Unlike me, true, but I agree nonetheless. To quote the infrequently quoted Marshall Bruce Mathers III:
"Storm, mosh, push, f%++ Bush,
Come along, follow me, as I lead through the darkness,
As I give just enough spark to proceed,
Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, and I won't steer you wrong,
Put your faith in your trust as I guide us through the fog,
To the light at the end of the tunnel, we will fight,
We will charge through the storm, we will march through the mosh,
Take us right to their doors, come on..."
I stand corrected.
I do find it funny that the republican conservatives of "the status quo" would think up such an anti-democratic ideal. It just goes to shwo how F-ed up some people are in any society.
on a separate note: who else finds it scary that a republican think tank said that Bush should install himself president for life and to nuke iraq?
But... why? What would be the point of nuking Iraq? Isn't it already occupied? What the...?
Do they just want to see another mushroom cloud for the hell of it? That's f%$#ing appalling. Since when is "Republican" synonymous with "Bond Villain?"
on a separate note: who else finds it scary that a republican think tank said that Bush should install himself president for life and to nuke iraq?
Do you have a source for that? Not that I completely doubt its veracity, I'd just like to see it for my own eyes.
I believe it was Fake Healer that has pointed out previously that the U.S. is the only nuclear capable world power that has employed not one but two nuclear (or "nukular") bombs on civilian targets. It's amazing that Japan doesn't still hate us and I think we have to keep something like that in mind when we Americans hold to our post Teddy Roosevelt "global peacekeeper" persona.
Rooting out terrorists and killing them is a job for an icepick.
Conventional military forces are sledgehammers.
It's amazing that Japan doesn't still hate us and I think we have to keep something like that in mind when we Americans hold to our post Teddy Roosevelt "global peacekeeper" persona.
I'm sure some Japanese people DO hate America. Some Australians (admittedly older ones, usually) hate and distrust the Japanese for their treatment of our prisoners of war. I would be very surprised if there wasn't a serious undercurrent of anti-US sentiment in Japan. Something like that, you don't just forgive and forget easily.
I'm not by any means a supporter of Bin Laden or terroists, but I think that there are plenty of American soldiers who have launched missiles and detonated bombs on foreign soil that have killed civilians and then they have given eachother a big pat on the back or high five for the good job they've done serving their country.
Intentionally? I would hope not. I was never in that position nor knew anyone personally in that position. However, I seriously doubt any of the men and women I served with personally would be happy about killing innocent civilians.
I hate it when people get too self righteous. People don't like to see themselves in a bad light and always look for other people to blame for things.
I apologize if I came off as self righteous. I certainly did not intent to. I have no problem seeing myself in bad light. I am not perfect. I never claimed to be. I have cheated. I have stolen. But I have never killed thousands of people for some misguided ideology.
As another example, there was lots of cheering in the states when big bad evil doer Sadam Hussain was finally caught, and yet the American government helped bring him into power in the first place and supported his regime for many years so that americans could have cheap and easy access to Iraqi oil for all those big ass cars and SUVs on the road.
I will concede that our government is not perfect. I will concede that our government is hypocritical. Is it any wonder when policy changes every couple of years when someone new is in office?
Were our motives for bringing Sadam down honorable? No. There are plenty of atrocities being committed all over the world that we seem to turn a blind eye to. Did Sadam deserve what he got? Probably. Did I cheer? No. But you will have to forgive me if I do not shed a tear for another mass murderer.
Label me as you will. If driving an SUV makes me the equal of Osama, so be it. I simply do not agree.
The government and media paint people in the way they choose to support their own agendas. As far as I'm concerned the president of the U.S is the biggest terrorist on the planet.
If you want to say the president is just as bad as Osama, you are free to do so. I agree to disagree. I am neither pro nor anti Bush. I do not see him as any better or any worse than all our other presidents. I do not think he is perfect. I seriously doubt all his intentions are honorable. I just do not think he is as bad as Osama.
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Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.
If we had more of this in the world maybe we would have less of Bin Laden. Many people forget that we (the USA) helped make the Muja Hadeen in the first place and that at one time Bin Laden was our ally, who we sent arms to and helped train.
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on a separate note: who else finds it scary that a republican think tank said that Bush should install himself president for life and to nuke iraq?Do you have a source for that? Not that I completely doubt its veracity, I'd just like to see it for my own eyes.
I believe it was Fake Healer that has pointed out previously that the U.S. is the only nuclear capable world power that has employed not one but two nuclear (or "nukular") bombs on civilian targets. It's amazing that Japan doesn't still hate us and I think we have to keep something like that in mind when we Americans hold to our post Teddy Roosevelt "global peacekeeper" persona.
Well when you do something as appalling as wiping out cities, all you need to do is offer a ton of trade incentives and billions of dollars to help rebuild and viola!
Kinda like walking up to a hot-headed rich guy and provoking an altercation. Rich dude whups you, feels bad and wants to do the right thing, and pays you off. You end up rich and it only cost a couple teeth (or a small percentage of your population).From a governmental standpoint it is sometimes better to poke the U.S. if your small country's economy needs a boost. "We will hit hard and then help develope a wonderful trade agreement coupled with tons of cash" thats the U.S. motto. Idiots.
Anyone I ever beat up got nothing. I never even paid for medical.
It's amazing that Japan doesn't still hate us and I think we have to keep something like that in mind when we Americans hold to our post Teddy Roosevelt "global peacekeeper" persona.I'm sure some Japanese people DO hate America. Some Australians (admittedly older ones, usually) hate and distrust the Japanese for their treatment of our prisoners of war. I would be very surprised if there wasn't a serious undercurrent of anti-US sentiment in Japan. Something like that, you don't just forgive and forget easily.
Anti-American sentiment in Japan is kinda like the tides: Sometimes it's high, sometimes it's low, but it's always there. It seems to be on the upswing nowadays with the various wars going on, but should North Korea get gutsy and start something very, very serious with Japan, it would definitely fade.
I have to admit, as much as I hate Osama, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Kim Jong-il scare the (censored) out of me. Granted, Ali Hoseini-Khamenei might keep Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 'in line'. Although, that is not too re-assuring.
not to interrupt the geopolitical nature of this thread but...the fact is there are no monsters in this world because we are they... the orcs, the demons, the cruel melniboneans, we are what we most fear...we are responsible for the worst atrocities, greed, avarice, lust. the end is nye...and marshall mathers? everybody knows thats devil music! this is the abyss and we're a chaotic faction among many proclaiming we're right...where's a paladin when you need one?
Osama is a paladin in his own mind.
Osama is a paladin in his own mind.
Yeah. Most of the really bad guys are.
I don't have an opposing point of view, but I do think that it is a sad reflection of humanity's continued lack of collective wisdom that people like bin Laden live in such harsh conditions that they find the evil that they have become as their only way out.
If humanity was a character, we'd have used all our Time Boosts and Technology Enhancements to attain an Intelligence score of 100, but we would still have a very honestly roleplayed Wisdom score of 3.
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Meh. I doubt it. Most Muslims are not radicals, and of the few that are, only a fraction of them would act on their radical ideas. In fact, a poll taken of American Muslims showed that only 1 in the 1,000 Muslims polled thought that the Jihad was a good idea. (Newsweek, sometime in 2007)
Lucky for America. Most muslims, of course, despise violence like everybody else. However, in the UK, enough have been radicalised for several home-grown terrorist attacks to take place here (the nature of American Islam is a bit different to American - most US muslims are black converts, whereas most UK muslims are immigrants or the children of immigrants from the Indian subcontinent). While I have never understood why they thought it was OK for Saddam to kill thousands of muslims and not OK for Americans to do the same (i.e. why the American invasion, which was at least partly intended to topple a nasty dictator and improve the lives of the ordinary Iraqi on the street, should outrage them when the murderous activities of said dictator didn't seem to bother them at all) the Iraq War has been a big source of muslim radicalisation (coupled with the US's relative indifference to the the Palestine question).
Something like that, you don't just forgive and forget easily.
I think the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan actually saved lives, because the Japanese may not have surrendered otherwise and not only would tens if not hundreds of thousands of U.S. servicemen been killed during the invasion, the continued conventional attack and eventual starvation naval siege of Japan that non-surrender would have brought on might eventually have killed millions more from starvation and massive conventional bombing.
That doesn't mean I like nuclear bombing or am a radical pro-war saber rattler, but the issue goes deeper than just the gut reaction of being instinctively against any WMD attack, no matter the cost. Sometimes a WMD attack is justified and ending the war with Japan quickly was one of those times, IMO.
The Japanese didn't have to attack Pearl Harbor or abuse POWs or experiment on Chinese or run sex-slave camps either. I'm not saying that necessarily justified a WMD attack on civilians, but it's easy to look at those desperate times through the filter of 60 years of Monday morning quarterbacking.
Plus, does anyone doubt that if the Japanese had had an atomic bomb before the U.S. they would have hesitated to use it?
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It is also worth noting that the fireboming attack on Tokyo killed more people than the nukes did (and the attacks on Dresden and Hamburg by the RAF were also extremely deadly). WW2 was total war. It wasn't nice and it wasn't pretty, but it differs from a terrorist attack legally at least, and in my view morally.
Likewise, calling Bush a terrorist is missing the point - the attack on Iraq was sanction by the legislture in the US and the UK, and had been subject to the democratic process, faulted though these inevitably are. We can argue about the UN (a somewhat morally compromised institution itself). The Iraq invasion was a monumental f~#$-up, but if Rumsfeld had actually known what he was doing we might be sitting here congratulating ourselves on how much better off the Iraqis are having got rid of Saddam. I never had a problem with the stated aims of the invasion, only with the results of the bungled operation.
I am sure Osama's issues for the attack go deeper than 'F' America. However, I have yet to hear him or anyone else give what I deem a reasonable rationalization. Yes, I am well aware that he does not have to explain his actions to me anymore than I have to explain my hatred of him.
An eye for an eye may make the world blind, but only if I fail to put you down first.
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[Rant]
Point I: There is a fundamental difference between the power and technology of war today compared to 10 years ago, let alone 60. In the modern era, no power would willingly aturation bomb a civilian hub for any reason when alternatives exist. At the time the nukes were used, we had won in germany, hundreds of thousands of troops would have been freed up, and it was a matter of time until Japan lost. However the immediate situation was such that "a matter of time" would have been much harder on the amercans than the Japanese.
Point II: WWII carpet bombings, nukings, and other forms of wholesale slaughter were occuring during a time of war, between recognized soverign powers, and never specfically attacked civilian targets. German Tank factories, Japanese bomb factories, and well, honestly the miles of area around them did hit civilian targets, but that was not the point of the attack.
Point III: Before anyone touts the "Bad Intelligence" card, please keep in mind that it was democrats that imposed the barriers between the alphabet soup cousins (FBI, CIA, NSA, etc). Admoitedly after CIA resources were imporperly used, but don't tell me how bad the CIA and FBI are at sharing info when the democrats made them stop.
Point IV: There are additional resons for US presence in Iraq, most notably:
A) Macroeconomics: For mayny years, OPEC has traded oil exclusively for US dollars. If you image US dollars as a resource, then this has created a global demand for our dollars. This has kept the value high. There are a lot of reasons the US dollar has always been used, but those reasons are being eroded by the Euro.
Saddam was advocating the switch from US dollars to Euros. Had this come to fruition, the American dollar would have crashed, as a sudden supply deluge would occur. This would destroy the quality of life in america, and our core trade alliance that isn't on the Euro. (Canada, China, Japan, etc)
B) Intelligence data indicated that the Iraq regime had been in contact with Al Qaeda, though the extent of the contact was never accurately determined. It was a viable destination if Bin Laden would choose to flee Afghanistan, and a region with chronic secondary problems
C) The ruling Family of Saudi Arabia continues to become more and more unpopular with the people, not the least of which is from being in our pocket. And the Saudis had demonstrated a lack of ability or desire to help defned american targets.
D) Iran
E) There is no force on earth so completly unpredictable as a lone extremist intent on exchaning his life for a cause. There is no way americans can search 100% of the boats, cars, planes, hang gliders, bicycles, pedestrians... coming into the country. By focusing efforts on the far side of the globe, we actually mitigate the chances of another attack on US soil
Point V: At no point, and under no circumstances can any government kowtow to terroristic demands. To do so would be to invite repetition.
If I say give me your money, or I will punch you, and you give me your money, next time I need money I will threaten you again. If instead you get punched, then grab a gaggle of your friends and turn me purple, well I will have learned.
Point VI: Bush is not responsible for this war going the way it has, well not directly. He ran on a social reform platform (no child left behind anyone?) and was thrust into the 9/11 attacks. He has done his best to respond to the situation, and simply refused to accept the necessary changes until it was too late.
Point VII: The US presence is a fact, and will continue to be one for years. Any attempt to schedule a departure date is an invitation to chaos the next. If you don't believe, go to any US high school on the last couple of days after senior grades are submitted. Once it is known that US troops will be gone on february 32, terrorists will wait until after that date to maximize damage.
Point VIII: Failure to properly secure Iraq before departing is a disaster in the making. Given the anti-western sentiment of the region, the amount of funding already being given to the insurgents, and the history of the region, when the dust settled, an anti western country would exist. One whos strings are held by Iran, or Syria, or perceptually worst of all Bin Laden.
Point IX: Despite the fact that we perfected wars of insurgency in our own revolution, Americans have not figured out how to stop them yet. Some of the things we need to learn:
A) Definitions: Bullets are stored in and fired out of forts, people pray in mosques. If people with guns are shooting out of a building labeled mosque, the label is incorrect.
B) Fighting radicals requires radical techniques. Pershing would line of 50 targets, shoot 49, burry them with pigs blood, and send the last off to tell his friends what happened. Other alternatives exist, but emotional warfare is necessary.
C) If we can not identify friend/neutral/foe, then assume everyone is a foe until proven otherwise.
Point X: Human rights are for humans. Being human requires humanity. This maxim is applicable to terrorists, pedophiles, and telemarketers.
[/rant]
Sorry all
A) Definitions: Bullets are stored in and fired out of forts, people pray in mosques. If people with guns are shooting out of a building labeled mosque, the label is incorrect.
I have to agree with you here.
Point X: Human rights are for humans. Being human requires humanity. This maxim is applicable to terrorists, pedophiles, and telemarketers.
And to the U.S., presumably. If you lie to a liar, you're one, too--like it or not. Torturing people becuase they're "bad" still makes you a torturer, no matter how you try to justify it. Coupled with the CIA field reports that conclude torture yields little to no viable information in comparison with more subtle forms of interrogation, there is little to recommend it except that everyone in their living room idolizes Jack Bauer, who looks cool doing it every week.
I don't necessarily disagree with your other posts--some of them seem slanted a bit oddly, but that doesn't make them fundamentally unsound--but I felt like this last one needed a response.
C) If we can not identify friend/neutral/foe, then assume everyone is a foe until proven otherwise.
This one I'm a bit leery of as well. By your point X, foes lack humanity and can therefore be confined with no charges and tortured at a whim. Coupled with this point IX(C), EVERYONE can be confined with no charges and tortured at a whim. If that's your idea of a country that emerging democracies can model themselves on, I'm forced to disagree; it sounds more like Idi Amin's Uganda to me. Your welcome to disagree, of course. If holding America to the rule of law, and to higher principles than a corrupt dictatorship makes me a pinko liberal idiot, then so be it. But I for one am proud to live here as long as the rule of law and high principles continue to mean something. When they no longer do, it won't be America anymore, and it will be time for me to go.