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I don't claim to speak for Paizo, but I do cartography work for them and can answer your first question to some extent:
The GameMastery Modules are stand-alone adventures that don't relate to the Pathfinder adventure paths. They share the same world, but not the same story. And in many cases they're separated by enormous distance. While Paizo could someday give us modules that take place in locations covered by the adventure paths, or adventure paths that take place in locations visited in the modules, I don't think we're likely to see much--if any--crossover.
Plus, I think it's safe to say that the Pathfinder books will never assume that you have material from the GameMastery Modules, or vice versa. Paizo has a tradition of giving the players what they need to run a particular adventure right in that adventure. The only books they ever assume you have are the core rulebooks to the game. What this means is that: if a Pathfinder adventure ever sends the PCs to Bloodsworn Vale (a setting from one of the modules), then they will provide you with the details you need in the Pathfinder book, even if the same information was once presented in the "Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale" module.
I personally think it's terrific that Paizo is building their world through a variety of product lines; each one fills a valuable niche at the game table, and they're all completely compatible and independent at the same time. You can decide for yourself how much of an investment you're able to make in Paizo's products and the setting they share, and you're sure to get your money's worth, whether you buy it all or buy just the parts that suit your gaming style.
Just my two cents...
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What this means is that: if a Pathfinder adventure ever sends the PCs to Bloodsworn Vale (a setting from one of the modules), then they will provide you with the details you need in the Pathfinder book, even if the same information was once presented in the "Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale" module.I personally think it's terrific that Paizo is building their world through a variety of product lines; each one fills a valuable niche at the game table, and they're all completely compatible and independent at the same time. You can decide for yourself how much of an investment you're able to make in Paizo's products and the setting they share, and you're sure to get your money's worth, whether you buy it all or buy just the parts that suit your gaming style.
I second everything Chris said and just want to add one point that has been stressed on these boards, that as much as the adventures, be it pathfinder or the modules build the world - what you and your group take from it to use is the important part because no matter what each groups version of GLorian (I never spell it right) will be different, and that is expected. Some people are changing certain businesses and NPCs in Sandpoint to suit the outlooks of their group, in some campaigns an NPC may die where they don't in others...
my point is that yes for now some things will be in one and not the other, but that doesn't mean that your version of the world will have it as written. also Pathfinder is taking a Texas sized block of land and fleshing it out over many books, the Modules just show you events that can be happening at other parts of the world while your PCs are fighting the Runelords. I plan on putting a "Monthly News scroll" together for the major cities because I'm purchasing the game mastery products, but I don't play enough to use them, so therefore I will turn them into news stories of 'far off lands told of only by caravans and gypsies'.
Chief Technical Officer
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And there will be Path Finder Chronicles, and it seems they will be published monthly, too...
The editorial folks are more well-equipped to handle most of your comments, but I can tell you that Pathfinder Chronicles will not be monthly. There will be several each year; the first few just happen to be jammed together a bit.
Also, everything you need to run Rise of the Runelords will be included between the covers of the six volumes (or in the core OGL resources). Having access to the other products may enhance your experience, especially if you're interested in, um, coloring outside the lines of your adventures a bit.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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We are also strongly considering a "deluxe subscription" option that would get you all of the Pathfinder Chronicles stuff too.
We're providing all of this extra stuff to folks who may want to expand their campaigns off the beaten path. You don't _need_ any of it to stay on top of a Pathfinder campaign. Everything you need to run that will be found within Pathfinder itself, so a subscription there should set you up with everything you "need."
But if your PCs wander off in an unanticipated direction? We've got you covered.
--Erik
We are also strongly considering a "deluxe subscription" option that would get you all of the Pathfinder Chronicles stuff too.
--Erik
Would there be an upgrade of existing subscriptions offered for, say, Charter subscribers to Pathfinder as well ? I balk at more than the current monthly subscription as is.
What about longer-termed subscription plans ? (Much like your prior publications' long-term subs.) Such as six-month or campaign-arc long or other standard fare length subscriptions ?
I personally prefer to make a large lump-sum subscription/payment rather than try to juggle multiple smaller monthly payments.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I understand that there is no NEED to buy anything D&D, ever, but to say: "Having access to the other products may enhance your experience [... of the world ...] especially if you're interested in [...] coloring outside the lines of your adventures a bit." that's really the same as saying: "Without chronicles you really loose quite a bit of the color and experience of the world we created", which sounds a lot like: "if you only buy Pathfinder you are buying only half the experience" and that is very close to the fear I voiced in my first post.
Perhaps a better way to think of it is like a movie DVD that's available in single-disc and deluxe 2-disc editions.
If you're only interested in the main feature, your Pathfinder subscription has you covered. It contains the complete Rise of the Runelords story, as well as *everything* you need to fully enjoy that story—it's not deficient in any way.
The Pathfinder Chronicles books are like bonus features, allowing you to immerse yourself more deeply in the total experience.
The GameMastery Modules are like a collection of shorts set in the same world as the feature, but unrelated to the plot of Rise of the Runelords.
Oh my god.. did I really just make that analogy? :P
Yes, but it's okay. It's a good analogy. Supporting stories, but not necessarily integral to the main story.
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Sort of in the same vein as the OP, I'm wondering what books will be referenced?
It seems that Pathfinder refers to the Tome of Fiends and, IIRC a Tome of Horrors.
What books will the Pathfinder modules draw from? Is there a complete list so I can make sure to purchase (or at least consider purchasing them)?
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Tome of Horrors and Book of Fiends (both Monster Manuals) are actually both referenced by Pathfinder. But something you have to realize about them is both books are OGL products which means that Paizo or anyone can use the content in them freely, they just have to credit the source and authors. There's no saying Paizo will ever use that content again and they've already gone on record as saying that any D20 OGL stuff they use will be printed fully so you don't have to buy books outside the Core 3.
I wouldn't go rushing off to buy the 2 above books because everything you need for the encounters is listed and there's no indication they're even naive to the world.
Paizo could use ANY D20 OGL book out there they want.. what are you going to do.. rush off and buy every $30+ hardcover just because 1 or 2 pages were used in it. Don't be silly.
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Chief Technical Officer
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So my original question remains (kind of): what will it take, anually, dollar-wise, to experience the full pathfinder experience... (see, I worded it different so we don't get into more discussions about need) (and I do realize that that question now is pretty much the same as: "what will the cost of the big, all inclusive pathfinder subscription be" so if I have to wait for you guys to figure that one out that's fine too.)
We have yet to figure out how to implement this. Obviously, you can subscribe to Pathfinder, and you can subscribe to Modules... coming up with a subscription to Pathfinder Chronicles would be fairly easy... but what about stuff like Item Cards, Map Packs, Flip-Mats and such? How about T-shirts? Alternate covers? Should those be included? Until that sort of thing gets solved, we can't really say what it might cost.
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I say only books. Shirts, cards, etc. put in as something we add to Pathfinder delivery.
Like for example, right now, I'm subscribed to both Pathfinder and GameMastery. I have GameMastery set to ship with Pathfinder. Well give us a generic option, regardless of the item, preorder or not, to Ship with our subscription.
This way, people that want just the books, can get the minimal. People that want all the extras, can attach all that extra stuff to their subscription as soon as you guys put it on the site.
By more subscription "attachments" you can guys can then setup subscriptions (how GamerMastery is set up) to charge item by item that ships out with regular subscriptions if customers so choose.
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Chief Technical Officer
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By the way, I very much like Urza's idea of giving a generic option to add an order to the next shipment of your subscription to combine shipping (that would definately make me want to order some of those really nifty spell template wire thingies I've been eying) but I do not know if that will become a logistical nightmare for Paizo.
Actually, we're already planning that.
And I also want to get rewarded for having a subscription by getting a percentage of the cover price of my Pathfinder articles.
Well, a *discounted* subscription is another matter. Remember that as a publisher, we have to keep retailers who sell our products happy, and and they feel we're undercutting them at the retail level, they won't support our products. (This is why we don't discount the product we publish online, and why the GameMastery Modules subscription isn't discounted.)
On the other hand, we do want to provide some benefit to subscribers (which is why the GameMastery Modules subscription includes a free PDF, and why you can combine your Pathfinder and Modules subscription to save on shipping). So look for any other subscription packages we offer to include perks, but not discounts.
(If you're wondering why we *can* discount the base Pathfinder sub without annoying them, it's because Pathfinder is uniquely positioned as the successor to Dungeon and Dragon.)
So the stuff that wasn't included was the SRD and the player's guide. These are both available for free as a download. What would have been a better solution? Possibilities that I can see (and I may be missing some):
1. Include links to where people can download this information.
2. Include the information (eg weapon stats and domain details) and cut out an equivalent amount of other content.
3. Include the information and reduce the font size slightly.
4. Remove the need for the information (eg by never referencing dogslicers or non-PHB domains).
Any others?
What would be your preferred way of fixing this? I favour option number one, myself.
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I just stumbled upon this, which added some fuel to my proverbial fire...
More information about the six gods and goddesses of Sandpoint can be found in the Rise of the Runelords Player’s Guide.This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about in my original post. Such a reference infers a need to have access to that resource, and this is a resource not included with the subscription.
BUT the Rise of the Runelords Players guide is a free download, there for your question on other things that you have to BUY does not apply, because it is FREE - free makes us happy.
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So the stuff that wasn't included was the SRD and the player's guide. These are both available for free as a download. What would have been a better solution? Possibilities that I can see (and I may be missing some):
1. Include links to where people can download this information.
Hopefully when/if they get a wiki up this will be happening
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Creative Director
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I just stumbled upon this, which added some fuel to my proverbial fire...
More information about the six gods and goddesses of Sandpoint can be found in the Rise of the Runelords Player’s Guide.This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about in my original post. Such a reference infers a need to have access to that resource, and this is a resource not included with the subscription. Am I correct in assuming that a similar reference will never be made to a GameMastery product but might be made to a Pathfinder Chronicle?
On a side note: I noted that "Tome of Horrors" and "The Book of Fiends" are also referenced, but it seems that in those cases the relevant referenced content has been reprinted in Pathfinder. That is totally fine as far as I'm concerned.
Correct; in that case, since the player's guide is a free download AND more information about the deities isn't necessary to run the adventure as written, we felt it was okay to not reprint all of the information about the deities from the Player's Guide in Pathfinder 1.
In the case of the thaumaturge class, the bunyip, the tentamort, and everything else from non-core books, we do reprint everything you need to run the encounter, and will continue to do so in the future.
Likewise, if we pick up something from a GameMastery adventure, we'll reprint all the necessary info.
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Creative Director
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So the stuff that wasn't included was the SRD and the player's guide. These are both available for free as a download. What would have been a better solution? Possibilities that I can see (and I may be missing some):
The best solution, I think, would have been to simply reprint the material. In Pathfinder 2, when we have a big section that talks about Desna, we reprint the domain she has from the SRD.
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I just stumbled upon this, which added some fuel to my proverbial fire...
More information about the six gods and goddesses of Sandpoint can be found in the Rise of the Runelords Player’s Guide.This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about in my original post. Such a reference infers a need to have access to that resource, and this is a resource not included with the subscription. Am I correct in assuming that a similar reference will never be made to a GameMastery product but might be made to a Pathfinder Chronicle?
It wasn't? Odd, I got a free Player's Guide with my subscription mailed to me. :P
Oh wait, I see now, you got Pathfinder after the free printed guide was ready. In any case, the Player's Guide is a free PDF, so it's assumed that any DM running the adventure will have it.. the Players will certainly want/need it if they're going to role instead of roll play.
On a side note: I noted that "Tome of Horrors" and "The Book of Fiends" are also referenced, but it seems that in those cases the relevant referenced content has been reprinted in Pathfinder. That is totally fine as far as I'm concerned.
And Tome of Horrors and Book of Fiends is only mentioned before their OGLs require people using stuff from their books to do that. :)
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Correct; in that case, since the player's guide is a free download AND more information about the deities isn't necessary to run the adventure as written, we felt it was okay to not reprint all of the information about the deities from the Player's Guide in Pathfinder 1.
Can I make a suggestion Jame?
When someone subscribes to Pathfinder, have the website put the PDF version of the Player's Guide automatically in their shopping cart (for free) so that NEW subscribers and people unfamiliar with the product become hopefully automatically aware of it and download it right away.
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Chief Technical Officer
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When someone subscribes to Pathfinder, have the website put the PDF version of the Player's Guide automatically in their shopping cart (for free) so that NEW subscribers and people unfamiliar with the product become hopefully automatically aware of it and download it right away.
Actually, a while back, we put a note at the top of *everyone's* downloads page that includes a link to the Player's Guide PDF.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Again, my preference is that someone (Paizo) sets the expectation up front ("GameMastery material will NOT EVER be referenced in Pathfinder, but Pathfinder Chronicles, Pathfinder Player's guides and other Pathfinders might") and that Paizo offers a subscription that matches that expectation.
Speaking as somebody who's an obsessive completist, I do understand what you're looking for, but that's just not in the best interest of developing our world. I'll tell you right now that the chapter on Varisia in Pathfinder 3 mentions Falcon's Hollow, and tells you that you can learn more about Falcon's Hollow in GameMastery Module D1: Crown of the Kobold King.
The key here is that you do not *need* to learn about Falcon's Hollow to enjoy Rise of the Runelords—and such knowledge plays no part whatsoever in the adventure, either for the GM or the players—but we're just telling you that if you want to learn more, that's where you can look.
Going back to my DVD analogy, this is like the commentary track where the director points out that the poster on the wall behind the actors is an important part of the plot in one of the short films he made.
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since I have no real local outlet for Paizo products (game store is like 60 miles away & right now the interstate is being worked on so for a 6-8 miles stretch it's 2 lanes), I'd love to have a deluxe subscription, as long as the subscription wasn't way overboard with costs & such, love the books & products, but if it comes down to normal everyday life stuff (like food,bills, etc etc) don't want to put myself in a bind cause of those.
but as I said, no local way of getting anything Paizo, so I'd be for it.
love more info, epically with a new world & such.
RM