allo
i'm almost finished reading through the STAP for the first time, and i'm really enjoying it. you guys did an outstanding job :-)
one thing that i'm struck by is the multitude of very difficult diplomacy checks needed along the way.
example: the dc 50 check needed when speaking with orcus. if the party fails, their champion must face a dc 22 battle alone! harsh!
i guess it makes sense in the storyline (orcus shouldn't be easy to convince to help against demogorgon... or anytime else). but a party without a specialized diplomat could be screwed. was this intentional?
messy
I thought that DC 40 and 50 were quite outrageous as well at first, then I did some research on the diplomacy skill and found the Influencing NPC Attitudes table and discovered that the 'by the book' Diplomancy DC to change any NPC's attitude from Hostile to Helpful is 50. So, yes in order to succeed in this AP, a whole lot of skill points will be spent on Diplomacy and much gold will be spent on Charisma enhancing and Diplomany bonus items.
I plan on emphasizing Diplomacy checks and other important skills starting as early as the Blue Nixie encounters, to get the characters in the 'mood' for these kinds of skills.
Cheers!
Anyway even at level 20 the PCs would only succeed by rolling something like 18,19 or 20 (assuming something like 23 ranks +9 from charisma), but with Orcus they can still produce Iggwilv's letter for a big bonus and I think there was something else, sure if noone has good diplomacy or the "I play the charisma dump stat character and have to do all the talking anyway" player goes to the front...it's the players bringing about their doom (but they still have a chance to succeed). But I agree, you should stress, that social skills are really needed.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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There are also other ways to increase the Diplomacy result, such as a Cloak of Charisma, spells, etc.
The cleric in my game maxes out Diplomacy and routinely gets results in the high 30s/low 40s at 12th level. I don't think 50 is completely out of the question if your players are prepared for it.
If you do not have a Diplomacy guru in the party, you may find yourself hurting in the influence department, but your DM may find alternative ways (side quests, favors, etc) to win over the allies you'll need to defeat Demogorgon.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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DC 50 isn't that crazy. The party probably should have at least one face character, as others have mentioned.
22 ranks
+5 Charisma (starting 14, +6 stat item)
+3 competence (cirlet of persuasion)
+4 morale (greater heroism spell)
+4 synergy (any 2 of Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledge Nobility)
= +38
At that point, you're almost making it on a take 10. That's all just core, there's various other ways to boost it of course.
Don't forget that the other party members, even those who dumped charisma, can lather on the Mass Eagle's Splendor and whatnot in order to Aid Another on the face's Diplomacy attempt. +2 untyped bonus for every other character in the party, usually, since Aid Another is a low and flat DC.
With the letter of introduction from Iggwilv, it should be possible for just about anybody to bring Orcus around. And neither success nor failure actually means anything during negotiations with Malcanthet, since she'll bestow her profane kiss and offer to trade the flask either way.
Russ, thats not really even trying ;)
+22 skill alone
+10 competence (idol in latest dragon, 28K)
+10 enchantment (basic 10K skill item)
+09 cha (18 +2 inh +4 lev +4 item)
+04 synergy
=55
...and no need to even roll, just don't screw it up :D
and then various feats, like fey kissed, dark speech etc..
No doubt some circumstancial bonus from the letter of introduction im told you can get.
DC 50 isn't that crazy. The party probably should have at least one face character, as others have mentioned.
22 ranks
+5 Charisma (starting 14, +6 stat item)
+3 competence (cirlet of persuasion)
+4 morale (greater heroism spell)
+4 synergy (any 2 of Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledge Nobility)= +38
At that point, you're almost making it on a take 10. That's all just core, there's various other ways to boost it of course.
Another way to add a +10 competence bonus: a dose of Shendilavri Perfume from Rowyn's dressing table in There is no honor. Of course, that's eleven adventures later -- maybe the doses might have been used up against the Dragon Turtle earlier?
I've always found Diplomacy gets mad bonuses, and fast. Although it's been said in previous posts, I've seen characters (especially marshals from the Miniatures Handbook) with sick bonuses at low levels.
Better still, I believe the warlock (Comp. Arcane) has a least invocation which grants him a +6 on Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff. I mention this because a buddy of mine is playing in my STAP campaign as a warlock, and uses this all the time, making him a real face-man, especially with Intimidate.
Can't wait 'til he gets to Orcus. Will he bite, and try to Intimidate the Prince of the Undead? Here's hoping!
Creative Director
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The Diplomacy DC checks are absolutely out of the book. And they're not really that outlandish. Diplomacy is actually the EASIEST stat to pump up really high, since it recieves the most synergy bonuses of any skill (Bluff, Knowledge Nobility/Royalty, and Sense Motive). Five ranks in each of those and presto: +6 to Diplomacy checks. Lavinia Vanderboren is actually included as a key allied NPC for this very reason; if the PCs don't have a diplomat, you can have her play the role in a pinch. Her diplomacy check in the first adventure when she's only a 2nd level aristocrat is already at +16. By the last time we stat her up, she's 15th level and has a +28 Diplomacy. And that's without a circlet of persuasion or any form of Charisma enhancing buffs.
The Diplomacy DC checks are absolutely out of the book. And they're not really that outlandish. Diplomacy is actually the EASIEST stat to pump up really high, since it recieves the most synergy bonuses of any skill (Bluff, Knowledge Nobility/Royalty, and Sense Motive). Five ranks in each of those and presto: +6 to Diplomacy checks. Lavinia Vanderboren is actually included as a key allied NPC for this very reason; if the PCs don't have a diplomat, you can have her play the role in a pinch. Her diplomacy check in the first adventure when she's only a 2nd level aristocrat is already at +16. By the last time we stat her up, she's 15th level and has a +28 Diplomacy. And that's without a circlet of persuasion or any form of Charisma enhancing buffs.
One of my PCs tried an opposed diplomacy with Lavinia (side trek that eventually landed them in jail for the trafficking in body parts). He has maxed diplomacy because of the Merchant District's feat which lets you get discounts. He rolled well and with an arrogant grin announced 18. The rest of the party oohed and awed and I think he actually smirked when he saw her 12.
He lost.
Such is life.
Dealing with Orcus (and the rest) is also one of those rolls that a good RP bonus will go a long way with me (arrogant smirking penalties aside).
+10 competence (idol in latest dragon, 28K)
+10 enchantment (basic 10K skill item)
+09 cha (18 +2 inh +4 lev +4 item)and then various feats, like fey kissed, dark speech etc..
A skill item provides a competence bonus. As such, it doesn't stack with the core Circlet of Persuasion, it doesn't stack with the idol you mentioned, and it doesn't stack with the perfume from Shendilavri in TINH. There isn't even any such thing as an 'enchantment' bonus.
Also, stuff like 18 natural charisma, inherent bonuses to charisma, level bonus to charisma, or feats spend on diplomacy is really counter to the point of the original poster, which is that the Diplomacy checks are hard for a party without a member optimized for that skill. Yes, a L19 party can have a diplomacy bonus in excess of +150. No, that isn't relevant here.
By the way...
0 ranks Diplomacy: +0 to Diplomacy check
cha 8 plus Mass Eagle's Splendor: +1 to Diplomacy check
Moment of Prescience: +19 insight bonus to a skill check
letter of introduction from Iggwilv: +10 untyped bonus to Diplomacy check
Shendilavri perfume: +10 competence bonus to Diplomacy check
Greater Heroism: +4 morale bonus to all skill checks
Using a character counteroptimized for Diplomacy, I've already achieved a +44 bonus to Diplomacy with Orcus, for an absolute minimum of 45. This requires no magic items, no feats, no skill poins, no non-Core material save that which is explicitly provided in the adventure path itself, no fuzzy rules, nothing!
If we have the other three members of the party attempt to aid another, even if their charisma is also 8 before the Mass Eagle's Splendor they still have a 60% chance to add in their +2.
If we throw in a Orange Prism Ioun Stone for the Moment of Prescience, a Luckstone, and assume that the wizard in question took at least 5 ranks in every knowledge skill at some point, it is only possible to fail if your wizard rolls a 1 and every other member of the party also fails a DC10 charisma check! If the wizard is an archmage with the spell power high arcana, failure is impossible.
I have always felt that spell casting during a parlay would be frowned upon so the short duration spells could be problematic. There are still lots of ways that if a character makes a concerted effort, a DC 50 isn't all that difficult to beat, especially at higher levels.
Cheers!
Since I outlined the skills and 'general' bonuses for my player group prior to play, I leave it in thier hands to have (or not have) a 'face' character capable of generating the checks that occur at the end of the AP.
That the adventure path itself pretty much forks over significant bonuses to achieving the necessary 'allies of covenience' for the end-game is also not insignificant, and should prod them into remembering that a 'face' character is never a bad idea in the campaign.
Of course, most 'face' characters have an unpleasant tendency to be on the squishy and low-fortitude save bonus range of things, thus becoming critter kibble fairly often if they are sloppy in staying out of harm's way...
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Super Diplomats aren't *that* hard to make up...
Half-Elf (Warlock 1 / Marshal 1 / Dragon Shaman 1 / Half-Elf Paragon 3 / Human Paragon 3)
Feats: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)[Marshal] (+3), Negotiator [Half-Elf Paragon] (+2), Complementary Insight [Human Paragon] (+3), Courteous Magocracy [1st] (+2), Sociable Personality [3rd], Heroic Destiny [6th], Fearless Destiny [9th]
Class features boosting Diplomacy: Beguiling Influence (+6), Motivate Charisma Minor Aura(+5), Persuasion (+1), Presence Aura (+1)
Trait: Honest (+1 Diplomacy, -2 Bluff).
Magic Items: Circlet of Persuasion (+3), Cloak of Charisma +4 (+2)
Ranks: +12
Synergy: +6
Half-Elf: +2
-----
Total: +49
All of this at level 9. We dealt with that Dragonturtle thing last session. I rolled, got a 3. My DM got that big rat bastard smirk on his face until I informed him I got a 52; then I proceeded to use my reroll from Sociable Personality, got a 16 + 49 = 65. Out of spite, I used my daily Heroic Destiny +1d6, got a 5 for a total of 70.
-JLA
JLA, that's an impressive investment of your first 9 levels.
Now, how do you survive getting narfed on in the game is my question ... seems like you have very minimal non-social 'oomph'. Presumably, you will pick one of the 3 core classes as your 'favored class' and progress for the remaining 11 or 12 levels to pick up the 'oomph' aspect.
Still, wow. I tip my hat in salute.
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Well, due to the crazy multiclassing, I've got rather respectable saves. My lowest HD is one d6, the rest are d8s or d10s. 16 Con. Plus, there's this big dwarf thing that stands between me and the bad guys. I've also pumped up Use Magic Device and have a wand of Benign Transposition to get me out of tight spots.
Surviving STAP with a non-combat character is rough, but when you can talk circles around things quite easily (-10 for a rushed Diplomacy check to get the bad guys to not attack you for a round isn't that bad) it's not so bad.
Competent usage of magic items and the like is also helpful.
For the next few levels, it'll be Outcast Champion for the teamwork benefits, then Mythic Exemplar / Squire of Legend for more team-boosting goodness.
"Yay! I'm helping!" seems to be my character's tagline.
-JLA
Well, due to the crazy multiclassing, I've got rather respectable saves. My lowest HD is one d6, the rest are d8s or d10s. 16 Con. Plus, there's this big dwarf thing that stands between me and the bad guys. I've also pumped up Use Magic Device and have a wand of Benign Transposition to get me out of tight spots.
Surviving STAP with a non-combat character is rough, but when you can talk circles around things quite easily (-10 for a rushed Diplomacy check to get the bad guys to not attack you for a round isn't that bad) it's not so bad.
Competent usage of magic items and the like is also helpful.
For the next few levels, it'll be Outcast Champion for the teamwork benefits, then Mythic Exemplar / Squire of Legend for more team-boosting goodness.
"Yay! I'm helping!" seems to be my character's tagline.
-JLA
There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with having a "buff everybody" character in the STAP. While it might not seem optimal, it is devastatingly effective, especially over the long haul.
Speaking of which, one of my players finally hatched the idea recalling my suggestion regarding team work benefits - rather explicitly referring to the one regarding charge actions and allies' spaces. Smart move on his part imo, whether or not the other players nibble is another matter ...