Ok, it's kinda neat that in Burnt Offerings, Old Light is revealed to be some kind of ancient arcane artillery piece. I like that, it's cool.
But you can't very well plop down an old mysterious ruin in the middle of a town and not detail it at all in the first adventure! Players will immediately gravitate toward it when you give them the Player's Guide map to look at. They'll want to check it out right away.
I rather expected Burnt Offerings to feature a dungeon under Old Light. Putting the dungeon under the Glassworks instead was a surprise that left me wondering how the heck to handle the inevitable "My character wants to go explore the Old Light!" requests.
Sure, I can say some variation of "there's no way in" but that's kind of boring. I'd want to at least stick a couple dire rats or whatever into a ruined room accessible through a narrow crack, or something.
Is doing this going to screw up a future adventure in the RotRL path? If yes, then what's a good alternative? Is there anything under Old Light that we'll learn about later?
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Let them look. Let them all make search checks. To whoever rolls the highest look concerned and ask him/her if that includes all bonuses. If yes, ask what the natural number was. Ask if anyone can beat that. Think for a minute and announce "Nope, you search diligently but find nothing."
Ok, I search again, this time taking all day if I have to (taking 20).
Well, as far as I know, there's no reason you couldn't move the Catacomb of Wrath under the Old Light. Hell, it would make more sense to be there (since the Runelord of Wrath built
There is a very good reason NOT to do this. Yes, it will kinda mess some geographical stuff up in later adventures. You'll have to wait to see what I'm talking about.
From what I know of the Old Light (much being what you already know plus knowing how the rest of the adventures go), you shouldn't have a problem with allowing them to explore a bit of the interior. But it is most definitely a ruin. As such there's stuff inside that is simply impassable. The fact that there is some kind of magical flame burning within it is cool, but in the end just an interesting phenomenon.
I assume James Jacobs can and probably will interject a bit more, but that's my take on it.
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There is a very good reason NOT to do this. Yes, it will kinda mess some geographical stuff up in later adventures. You'll have to wait to see what I'm talking about.
You know, I like the idea of a "super-module" or "campaign arc" or "adventure path", but it's just this kind of foolishness that makes me wait until I can read the entire storyline before I start running a campaign.
If we were readers going through a fiction series, there could of course be these kinds of "all will be revealed later" mysteries. But we're DM's and if there's a reason that Dungeon A needs to be under Building B, we need to know that.
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Ok, I search again, this time taking all day if I have to (taking 20).Let them look. Let them all make search checks. To whoever rolls the highest look concerned and ask him/her if that includes all bonuses. If yes, ask what the natural number was. Ask if anyone can beat that. Think for a minute and announce "Nope, you search diligently but find nothing."
Lo and behold your perseverance has paid off, you found an ornate golden ring that feels warm to the touch and seems to hum softly. [Appraise check] Although obviously magical it does not do anything. It's probably wort about 250 gp.
[Sound irratated]Now move on.
If we were readers going through a fiction series, there could of course be these kinds of "all will be revealed later" mysteries. But we're DM's and if there's a reason that Dungeon A
needs to be under Building B, we need to know that.
Right, that's kind of what I mean. Moving the Catacombs of Wrath had occurred to me, but I foresaw that it could possibly be a problem in future episodes. Hence this thread.
Actually what I really need to know is, in what way should I describe the ruins?
Is it a big pile of rubble with no intact structural elements? Is it a mostly-intact tower that just has no intact entrance? How high is it? What color is the stone? How old? How weathered? How resistant to players chipping at it? Do parts radiate magic?
I can make up stuff like this, of course. Any DM could. But it'd be nice if the stuff I make up now matches the stuff I'll read in box-text later on.
Creative Director
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No one in Sandpoint (or Varisia) suspects the Old Light is anything but a ruined lighthouse at this point. With the exception of one sage (the guy who lives at the ruin's base). If you want to expand upon this element a little, have the PCs meet that old man and hear his theories about the Old Light's original purpose. In Pathfinder 2's "Skinsaw Murders," in fact, there's a brief encounter where this actually happens.
As for the Catacombs of Wrath... they're not under the Glassworks. The tunnel leading away from the Glassworks leads northward, and the Catacombs of Wrath themselves are in fact part of the dungeon complex that was once under and attached to the Old Light, so that's actually already in place.
Enormous old ruins are a fact of life in Varisia, in any event. It's one of the things that makes the place Varisia. It's cool if your players are intrigued by the Old Light, but by making the ruins seem to be little more than background material with little impact on the adventure is absolutely by design. One of the things the PCs are scheduled to discover during the course of the campaign is just where those ruins came from, how they were built, and why they were built. You don't want to reveal all of that all at once. In fact, it's best to spend a few adventures with these immense ruins in the background to get the PCs used to their presence; the next adventures include more of them (a giant bridge and a giant dam in the next two, for example), with increasing levels of interaction with them.
For now, you should probably have any investigations into the Old Light stall out or come to dead ends. The PCs will learn more in time.
SPOILERS BELOW!
In Pathfinder #5, these regions are detailed a little bit more. The challenges involved would wipe out a low-level party, though, so it's best to wait until that adventure and let things evolve as normal.
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There's little you can do to disconvince a player from exploring it. The more obstacles you put in their way, the more they'll want it. Just make up something simple. If it turns out to be an issue later, pretend it was an illusion placed by town elders to mislead the generations of robbers and adventurous children that were contstantly poking around.
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Creative Director
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Is it a big pile of rubble with no intact structural elements? Is it a mostly-intact tower that just has no intact entrance? How high is it? What color is the stone? How old? How weathered? How resistant to players chipping at it? Do parts radiate magic?
The ruins are more or less as pictured in the opening illustration of the Sandpoint article, and as shown on the map. They're VERY old and run down. Little more than a mound of rubble and stone in a circular pattern when viewed from above; from the side, it looks like a spur of rock sticking up from the edge of the cliff. There are no intact structural elements aside from its circular outline. The stone is brown-tan. The ruins are VERY old; no one knows quite how old (most sages estimate about 6,000 to 8,000 years, when in fact they are 10,000 years at the minimum). The height is about 100 feet, I believe, from the top of the cliffs; I'm pretty sure that this information is in the Sandpoint section somewhere though. The ruins are very weathered (although not as weathered as 10,000 year-old ruins should be). It's no more resistant to chipping than any other ruin, but locals will not tolerate much defacing to the Old Light because it's a traditional landmark. The ruins do not radiate magic, although their resistance to erosion is in large part due to ancient magical reinforcements that the Thassilonians used to preserve their monuments. That magic has long since faded, and currently, many of the Thassilonian ruins (including the Old Light) are eroding at a normal rate.
All in all, though, it's basically background flavor. The focus of the adventure is the goblins. Eventually, we'll have more information out there about these ancient ruins; that information increases each month with each new installment of Rise of the Runelords, but any particular installment has to focus first on the adventure at hand. For Burnt Offerings, the Old Light's role is little more than background, so we didn't spend much more time with it.
Thanks very much Mr. Jacobs! That's exactly the information I needed. I didn't see it on the first read-through of the Sandpoint section; there's no numbered entry for Old Light.
But that's enough to satisfy the group's curiosity for now. Thanks!
There's not actually a light burning in the ruins, by the way. There shouldn't be, in any event. If there's anything in Pathfinder 1 that says there's a light burning in there, I'd appreciate it being pointed out, of course! :)
Sorry, James. My bad. I think I mistook something I read in the early manuscript. No lights burning. Check. It's official. Nothing to see hear. Move along.
There is a very good reason NOT to do this. Yes, it will kinda mess some geographical stuff up in later adventures. You'll have to wait to see what I'm talking about.
You know, I like the idea of a "super-module" or "campaign arc" or "adventure path", but it's just this kind of foolishness that makes me wait until I can read the entire storyline before I start running a campaign.
If we were readers going through a fiction series, there could of course be these kinds of "all will be revealed later" mysteries. But we're DM's and if there's a reason that Dungeon A needs to be under Building B, we need to know that.
Sorry for the vagueness, Chris. Because I, too, hate that kind of thing, I'll elaborate as best I can without calling down the Paizonian wrath of Dr. Jacobs.
In Pathfinder #5, the Old Light serves as a marker for one of the two initial adventure hooks. The PCs will be returning to the Catacombs of Wrath (a la The Whispering Cairn from Age of Worms), so it's best to leave things geographically how they are to save yourself a lot of time making changes to get things all lined up right.
I think Mr. Jacobs "closed off" physical description of the tower should be enough to cause players to give up on the tower until the time is ripe.
But if they won't take the hint, you could just keep throwing disctractions at them every time they try to explore the tower. The Sand Point Devil could swoop in and start stealing cows. Or any one of the other adventure hooks that are set to happen in the town could pop up. I suppose they will catch on pretty quick that something is going on. It may turn into a bit of a running joke. Hopefully you can keep them distracted with the rest of the adventure without them going after the tower at every gaming session.
Actually,
Since 'Old Light' is said to be the ruins of one of Alzanist's artillery towers, and there are these catacombs of wrath underneath Sandpoint. I just figured that the catacombs of wrath were an underground extension of the tower ruins. A layer built underground. The description of the tower states that the base is built out from the side of the cliffs. It seems silly that Alzanist would have two separate areas in the same close proximity that were not associated.
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Creative Director
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I told my players Ilsoari Gandethus Had some weird theory it was a war machine of some sort. Was I wrong for telling them that?
Nope! he more or less tells the PCs that anyway in #2. As long as you present him as a possibly eccentric guy whose theories aren't thoguht of by scholars as valid, it's all good. That way, when the PCs find out the truth in Pathfinder 5, it's a fun reveal.
Bump
This is great. I've only skimmed through this thread, but some of what I've gleaned from it has seemedto solve a problem I had.
When running the glassworks, I was unable to fit the tie in with the Catacombs in a way that my player picked up on. I figured I'd just skip it. But, He also showed an amazing interest in Old Light, and wanting to explore it. I kinda railroaded him away from it because I couldn't remember if there was more being done with it later or not.
But, if the Catacombs of Wrath are under Old Light (or at least in some way connected with it), I can tell him that he does find an entrance that had been over-looked by the doddering old sage (Brodert or something wasn't it) that leads into the Catacombs . . .
Very nice, very nice.
I told my players Ilsoari Gandethus Had some weird theory it was a war machine of some sort. Was I wrong for telling them that?Nope! he more or less tells the PCs that anyway in #2. As long as you present him as a possibly eccentric guy whose theories aren't thoguht of by scholars as valid, it's all good. That way, when the PCs find out the truth in Pathfinder 5, it's a fun reveal.
I had a *GLORIOUSLY* fun time with this when one of the player's went looking for info on the Old Light - within a couple minutes of droning details I got a "Okay, hey, I've got to go, let's have lunch sometime." Then I made her listen to a couple more minutes of "exciting details" about his work.
Quite an arrogant guy too :)