I have a player in an upcoming PnP game who wants to use the Book of Nine Swords. Should I allow it? Is it overpowered? Poorly designed? From some of the discussions on these boards its sounded as though it is considered overpowered. Thanks in adance.
I decided not to allow it for now. I may change my mind some day in the future, but I did feel that it makes some of the other warrior classes obsolete, and I didn't want to have to learn a whole new system of rules just so the player could run this character.
No!
:)
At high levels, it gives you martial characters on par with their arcane spellcasters, but at low levels, it can be very unbalancing. With the right selection of class/maneuvers/stances, it's possible for a first level character to do 1d6-2d6 damage on every attack in addition to normal weapon damage. Throw in a feat like powerful charge (+1d8), and a first level character is one-hit/one-kill against ogres without a crit.
Allow it
As ever,
ACE
I'd say no.
hmmm... I would say no. Its Kung Fu is poor and smells like stale rice.
I dunno. I'm partial to using it, but then again, that's as a player. I've no idea how it would affect balance as a DM.
As a DM I wouldn't allow it unless I was very familiar with the system.
Here we go again. You should definently allow ToB in your game. Yes, it is more "powerful" than the "normal" melee classes (especially the fighter). But that is a good thing.
The normal melee characters are significantly outshone by the caster from about level 8 or so onwards (maybe even from as early as level 5 depending on players and characters). The ToB merely pushes that back until later before the spellcasters are significantly better than the melee guys.
If you are worried about raw damage out put. Don't be. Tempest Stormwind did some (quite detailed) analysis on the wizards website (You can check it out here for some of the details), that basically showed a raging barbarian does more damage than a Warblade.
The power up this book gives to melee is not in more damage. I repeat, not more damage. But in options. No longer is the melee character limited to simply charge and full attack. No more do they simply say, "I try to hit it again" round, after round, after round, after round.
No, now, just like the casters, the melee characters also have options. If their favourite maneuver is not working, fine, try a different one. Surely one of them will work. No long do they have to stand toe to toe trading full attacks, they can react dynamically on the battlefield.
The best hting Tome of Battle did for melee was to make it fun. To make it interesting. To give them options. Why should casters get all the fun? Why do you want to deny these things from your melee characters?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I can't answer the question; I've never played with the material in the book. There are a handful of people on the boards who have and, if you're lucky, they'll share their experiences. More likely than that is a bunch of "I reads it and I is smart and it is unbalanced" type opinions.
Give it a spin and see how you and your players like it. Unless you have a hoarde of hungry power-gamers, you'll probably find that it fits a player's style and is no more powerful than any other option said player could have chosen.
Try not to take the horror stories to heart, they're filled with assumptions that may not be true about your players/campaign style. Jeremy's characters could probably break the commoner given the depth of knowledge he displays. My players can't seem to make the warlock dangerous. As long as yours fall somewhere in the middle you should be fine.
Ace! Fatherhood has mellowed you out. You didn't even post about the DM tailoring the adventure to the party's strengths. Now maybe I can manage not to get into a playtesting fight and we'll both ascend to the next plane of existence.
I like it, but I would not suggest you allow it if you don't know how the system works.
So if you do plan on letting it in I would suggest learning about it.
I like it, but I would not suggest you allow it if you don't know how the system works.
So if you do plan on letting it in I would suggest learning about it.
I would second this. Or at least have players you can trust to use the new rules and options correctly.
If they do pull something that seems overpowered, check it out yourself, and come here and post and we'll let you know if it is legit.
Most of the concerns seem to come from players "forgetting" you need to ready your maneuvers before you can use them, and you need to refresh them before you can use them again. So no spamming your high damage maneuvers round after round. Every second round is fine however.
Also, most maneuvers require a standard action to initiate. So no combining that with a full attack either. It is either a full attack or a standard action maneuver, not both.
The other "mistake" players my make, is forgetting you only get 1 swift action a round.
They are the main areas for abuse. If you make sure your players are on top of all them, then you shouldn't have any problems.
If it does seem your players are over powered, they are probably doing something wrong, if you need hlp to spot it, let us know and we'll help you.
I am playing a Swordsage in the STAP. Ok I am only level 4 now. I might outshine the normal wizard (as does any fighter in lower levels, due to few spells per day), but in comparison to the fighters, there is nothing special about my character. The swordsage knows some nice tricks, but low HP, light armor and especially cleric BAB progression may make him quite weak, especially in higher levels. I am no powergamer and do not have the time to optimize my character to the top. I can do some more damage, but only once or twice every fight, a rogue could do this every round. At least the swordsage seems ok in regards to power level, You should at least have a try with ToB and rather remove it, if it does not fit your campaign in the end.
Unless you have a hoarde of hungry power-gamers...
About half the group, including the one who wants to use the BoNS.
If you do allow it, I wanna play... ;)
Only if you're in Pueblo, Colorado on that day. And it isn't the full moon.
So if I have players who are sort of power gamers and sometimes forget how their class features and spells work (which tends to be an issue) and I'm not familiar with the book I probably shouldn't allow it?
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Fake Healer brings up a great point, "ToB adds some much needed flavor to melee artists and is fun to play."
You could have the group vote, if they are okay with it then go for it. It's all about the fun, anyway.
Otherwise i'd go with Sebastians advice, "Give it a spin and see how you and your players like it...you'll probably find that it fits a player's style and is no more powerful than any other option said player could have chosen."
Excellent advice, btw.
Thoth-Amon
So if I have players who are sort of power gamers and sometimes forget how their class features and spells work (which tends to be an issue) and I'm not familiar with the book I probably shouldn't allow it?
I think that is a good assessment. ToB works fairly well from my experience, but only when all the nuances (e.g. if you used an Immediate Action before your current turn, then it counts as your Swift Action for the turn, etc.) and you don't allow silliness that optimizes certain loopholes (you can do nasty things with Jump checks and the right maneuvers). A straight Warblade or Swordsage is likley no problem at all. Even throwing in a little multiclassing and a PrC should be fine. Allowing some cobbled-together mess of classes and willy-nilly access to whatever items the player wants is a recipe for disaster in this system, even moreso than usual.
I think that is a good assessment. ToB works fairly well from my experience, but only when all the nuances (e.g. if you used an Immediate Action before your current turn, then it counts as your Swift Action for the turn, etc.) and you don't allow silliness that optimizes certain loopholes (you can do nasty things with Jump checks and the right maneuvers).
This is good advice. I think the book as a whole isn't to bad but really relies on you understanding the rules especially the rules of immediate and swift actions. I have a Warblade in my current game and even though they are first level I can already see that the class is balance by the fact that you can only do so much in a round. If you don't understand immediate and swift actions then they can end up doing more in a round then intended and become unbalanced.
My opinion is that it regulates your common fighter into the same category as the NPC warrior class-something for mooks to be.
Shucks, Sebastian, your spoiler is right. You invest so much in your kid that things like trying to get folks to see a different RPG POV doesn't seem that important any more. If i've lost my edge maybe it's time to hang up the avatar and let someone else with more gusto (see on gaming gusto thread) take up the cause. It's exausting championing your ideas! Truly, the post above in this thread is an embarassment to me personally and it does the gaming community no good.
Tired as ever,
ACE
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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My opinion is that it regulates your common fighter into the same category as the NPC warrior class-something for mooks to be.Aaaah...Bliss!
The key to understanding balance is to realize there is no balance. Only karma. Or action points if you don't want to adopt Shadowrun terminology.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Shucks, Sebastian, your spoiler is right. You invest so much in your kid that things like trying to get folks to see a different RPG POV doesn't seem that important any more. If i've lost my edge maybe it's time to hang up the avatar and let someone else with more gusto (see on gaming gusto thread) take up the cause. It's exausting championing your ideas! Truly, the post above in this thread is an embarassment to me personally and it does the gaming community no good.
Tired as ever,
ACE
I would say that your reputation speaks for itself, and at this point, further elaboration is unnecessary. ;-)
Just wait till you start getting a full night's sleep regularly. You'll be here talking about the forge and modals and the lack of good gaming literature like no one's business.
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About half the group, including the one who wants to use the BoNS.
That is a problem, but I'm not sure the solution lies in avoiding the BO9S.
Only if you're in Pueblo, Colorado on that day. And it isn't the full moon.
Aside: Will you be coming up for Tacticon?
So if I have players who are sort of power gamers and sometimes forget how their class features and spells work (which tends to be an issue) and I'm not familiar with the book I probably shouldn't allow it?
First, I suspect that you either have procedures in place to control, ummm, freewheeling play or you don't care enough to put them in place. In either case, you should be able to modify them to take a new book into account.
For example, you could give each player a Swift Action chip that needs to be handed in when the action is used and returned when appropriate. And Bo9S recommends using cards for maneuver availability. If your game isn't breaking under the strain of Druids, I suspect you'd be fine.
The best reason to avoid the book, though, is if you don't like it (for whatever reason). It certainly changes the flavor of the game quite a bit.
If you do decide to allow it, though, make sure you understand the basics of maneuver selection, availability, and refresh, and decide how you want to handle the use of maneuvers outside of combat.
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Or Genghis Khan."Sebastian...what is best in life?"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
Duh.
One of the best lines ever! Great scene.
Thoth-Amon
Ha. I learned something new. Thanks. Conans line is a paraphrase from a quote by Genghis Khan, aka Temujin: "The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters."
Thoth-Amon
...Tacticon...
The what? Am I being uninformed of something?
I've recently been keeping them on a pretty short leash. I thoroughly review their characters before play.We'll be playing in Eberron; I really like the feel of the setting, how does the Bo9S work with that? I don't possess the book myself and I'm not going buy it just for this game so will it present a problem with me not being at all familiar with the new systems? So back to my original question, beyond game balance, should I allow the Bo9S without familiarity with the system and will it work with the feel of Eberron, particularly Sharn?
should I allow the Bo9S without familiarity with the system
Absolutely not.
The book, while excellent, can be fairly complicated. Not as much as learning how to use psionics properly, but it still should get a thorough read through. I've had the book since release, and I thought it was excellent, but unfortunately it is doomed to die a sad death of unuse because they made it a closed mechanic. Psionics is only seeing a revival now that they've added it to the OGL materials.
What you "might" do, is allow the feats (some of which are excellent) from the BoNS' into the campaign to allow the players to try it on and see if you both like it, without going "whole hog" on an all new game mechanic.
and will it work with the feel of Eberron, particularly Sharn?
The 13 Jade Phoenix's work quite well for keeping a Rakasha prince imprisoned, the Iron Heart discipline could easily be inserted into the Droam region, and Diamond Mind could have originated from the Kalashtar. I don't think incorporating it into Eberron would prove particularly challenging.
Uhhh, I don't mean to call you guys historically challenged, but I think Hyboria predated The Mongols by about 10,000 years, so...Conan said it first.
I wonder if he stole it from King Kull the Conqueror of Atlantis...
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...Tacticon...The what? Am I being uninformed of something?
Convention in Denver over Labor Day weekend. Good fun. If you show up, let me know. Maybe we can grab lunch or something.
I don't possess the book myself and I'm not going buy it just for this game so will it present a problem with me not being at all familiar with the new systems?
With the group you've described, I wouldn't allow it. If you don't follow the rules (which vary pretty significantly by class), there is a high chance for brokenation.
I hope I can go to Tacticon! I think thats right after school starts which could complicat things. I didn't know there was a convention that close (by that I mean within a six hour drive).
I'm not allowing the Bo9S in the upcoming campaign. I expect complaints but oh well. Thanks for all your reviews.
After digging into this a bit more (when I first looked at it, I only looked at the flavor/history stuff trying to figure out how to fit it into a campaign), I noticed a few things.
First off, fighters do get something out of the book, if you are willing to burn the feats. You can learn martial maneuvers and stances with feats. While I love all of the feats that I can get as a fighter, I have noticed that every once in a while there are levels where what I want I'm not qualified for yet, so there could be some room to throw in a martial ability here or there.
This actually gets even more interesting if you use the retraining rules in the Player's Handbook II, so that at higher levels you can retrain the feat that you used for your martial ability to something better, or you can determine if you still want your stance, or what have you.
I was looking at this mainly because I was looking for ways to incorporate some of material in the book without throwing in full fledged martial adepts. Not only can you access these abilities using feats to "dip into" the material, but you can also add another form of expendable treasure in the form of martial scripts for the players to use, giving them access to stances and maneuvers without getting too heavily into the system. Just like its handy for a wizard to have a scroll with a few extra spells "just in case," if you introduce this into the game a dwarf fighter might stop by a priest of Moradin and pick up a martial script of foe hammer or something that they might use at some point in time.
Oh, and if you do allow retraining, I would probably still enforce the "no more than three times" rule on the martial training feats, i.e. if they do learn something, and then "retrain" it into another feat (which they couldn't use for the feat itself, since the retraining has to be for something that you were qualified for at that level when you took it), I'd still count it as having learned it once, even if they can't use it anymore.
Or Genghis Khan."Sebastian...what is best in life?"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
Duh.
One of the best lines ever! Great scene.
Thoth-Amon
That was my take too until Heathson started talking about best line ever.