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I have always wondered if I have missed something but it seems that the spiked chain would be a two-handed weapon that you could use with the two-weapon fighting feat.
In my games I was going to allow two attacks for targets in the 5' range, one with each end of the chain but only allow one attack at the 10' range since you would be using the full length of the chain.
What does everyone think, would this work?
Sounds like you're making a bad situation (the spiked chain is widely believed to be the cheesiest aspect of 3.x weapon selection) and making it worse. Now they get 2 attacks/round at 1st level?
I have always wondered if I have missed something but it seems that the spiked chain would be a two-handed weapon that you could use with the two-weapon fighting feat.
The Exotic Weapon Master prestige class (from Complete Warrior) can learn a trick that allows him to flurry with a spiked chain. You might want to check that out.
I would not allow a spiked chain to be used as a double weapon (for TWF), but if I did I would make sure to enforce the liabilities as well as the advantages: have to enchant both ends if you're making it magical, x1 and x1/2 Str bonus to damage instead of x1.5, etc.
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Yeah I was thinking about that, the spiked chain puts out some pretty good damage, can disarm and trip with ease so maybe letting a player double all that would be a little much but I do like Dragonmann's feat. With the feat and it's prerequisites 2WF with a spiked chain would make it more of a specialized build so maybe not everyone could do it.
Yes spiked chain is a nasty little weapon but, as I tell all my players that think of using one that, if they are being Mr. Bad *$$ in battle expect for the bad guys to want to take you out quick and fast. At my table Spiked Chain = bull's eye.
IMC we have a rule for the spike chain: feel free to use one, but beware the enemy horde of spiked chain wielders as what's good for the goose is... :)
We had a player sometime back who abused the spiked chain rules to their limit and caused much havoc and frustratation at the table. Picture a large size creature (now threatening three squares in any direction including up) with all feats put into extra attacks of opportunity, trip, etc. It was brutal.
Well, here we go again, people complaining about the spiked chain and the things you can do in melee.
Is the spiked chain the best weapon in the game? Of course it is.
But is focusing on the spiked chain the best strategy? Definently not. It is nowhere near the power of spells AT ALL.
Sure at early levels, you will be wiping the floor with most opponents. But a Greatsword wielded two handed will do that most times anyway.
Let the spiked Chain user have their fun, it will give them some fond memories to focus on when the spellcasters are the ones with real power.
I like you feat suggestion Dragonmann. It actually makes the Spiked Chain worth it as an exotic weapon. But it can be taken at level 2 by a human fighter.
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Oriental Adventures had some chain-style weapons that could be used as a 2H weapon with reach or a double weapon within 5'. Of course, that was 3E and the game balance issues may not have been immediately apparent.
But I don't really see it as that bad from a game mechanics perspective. A two-bladed sword does 1d8, a spiked chain does 2d4 (an extra 0.5 points of damage per strike on average), the sword has a higher chance to crit, and they are both exotic weapons. Yes, you don't have to change weapons if you want to strike using reach, but that saves you a move action at most (maybe it saves you a feat like Quick Draw). It's quite powerful, but not in the realms of being overpowering. Maybe the ability to use it like that should require a feat, but it strikes me as a borderline case - you still need 2-Weapon Fighting, after all.
Keeping firmly in mind I have never actually SEEN a chain wielder in a game, one off or campaign, I'll defer to ya'lls judgement. But I still think its adding more glitter to the already shiny.
I had a rogue using a spiked chain in my Planescape game. It allowed the character to avoid direct melee combat and still sneak attack, especailly if the target is already engaded in melee. It made the combat a bit more survivable when facing large opponents.
Something most people don't think about is putting a spiked chain in the hands of a big creature. Reach weapons typically double a creature's reach. This means a cloud giant with a huge spiked chain can attack any opponent out to 30 feet.
A spiked chain is a very good weapon: it's a reach weapon that can also be used vs. adjacent targets, you can use Weapon Finesse with it, it's a two-handed weapon (x1.5 Str Mod, x2 Power Attack Mod), and it can be used to disarm and trip (Improved Trip by a high Str character with Power Attack can be nasty). However, it's still a melee weapon. If the chain weilder runs up against a bunch of skirmishing scouts with bows, it's not going to help much. Also, it's pretty useless in a grapple.
There is no one weapon that is optimal for all situations. Adding the ability to use a spiked chain as a non-reach double weapon (like the Master of Chains from the 3.0 Sword and Fist) is not going to break most games. The invenstment in feats will be high for the gain (compared to a dwarf fighter/ranger with Axe Focus (racial substitution), Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, and two gloves of storing). To get optimal use of a spiked chain already requires Combat Expertise and Power Attack, adding Two-Weapon Fighting just sucks up more feats.
Where are the rules that say reach is doubled for bigger creatures using spiked chains and other reach weapons?
PHB, pg. 113. Melee and Ranged Weapons, Reach Weapons. (starts on pg. 112)
OK, thanks. So the Reach of a Huge (tall) creature with a spiked chain is 30-foot? Cool.
As long as the spiked chain is huge, also.
Funny, I have always been more scared of the whirlwind attack with a spiked chain, not the improved trip...
To trip someone, you make a touch attack (Improved Trip allows you to avoid an AoO) and then tripper makes a modified Str check (Improved Trip grants a +4) vs. a Dex or Str check by the target. The individuals involved gain a +4 for each size category larger than Medium (plus Stability for dwarves or an extra +4 for quadrapeds). If the trip succeeds, the target is prone, giving a -4 AC penalty to melee attacks (Improved Trip allows an immediate free attack against the prone target). Standing up is a move action that draws an AoO.
Basically the sequence runs: chain wielder trips target, gets free attack, takes remaining attacks (if any) at prone target; target stands up, drawing AoO, makes single attack; rinse, repeat. The tripper is getting an extra attack each round while limiting the target to single attacks. That's a pretty damn good option. Also, a spiked chain wielding fighter can do this starting at 3rd level (2nd if human), assuming they also take Weapon Focus. Add Power Attack at the next level and it becomes really nasty.
Giants are obscene with this tactic, with their high Str and the bonus to the trip check.
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To trip someone, you make a touch attack (Improved Trip allows you to avoid an AoO) and then tripper makes a modified Str check (Improved Trip grants a +4) vs. a Dex or Str check by the target. The individuals involved gain a +4 for each size category larger than Medium (plus Stability for dwarves or an extra +4 for quadrapeds). If the trip succeeds, the target is prone, giving a -4 AC penalty to melee attacks (Improved Trip allows an immediate free attack against the prone target). Standing up is a move action that draws an AoO.
Basically the sequence runs: chain wielder trips target, gets free attack, takes remaining attacks at prone target; target stands up, drawing AoO, makes single attack; rinse, repeat. The tripper is getting an extra attack each round while limiting the target to single attacks. That's a pretty damn good option.
Yup. The spiked chain, as used above, is already pretty powerful. Why would anyone want to make this even more so by allowing it to be used in a TWF combo? If abused, the player could waltz through combat encounters with little effort, for the most part. It would kind of take the fun out of the game . . .
Funny, I have always been more scared of the whirlwind attack with a spiked chain, not the improved trip...
They are both phenomenally effective. I've had a player take both in my campaign. Stack it on a Half-Giant and get enlarge and your either able to trip anything this side of a Storm Giant or you hit everyone in a 20' radius for a ton of damage (pick up the oversized weapon feat as well), very effective against larger groups - especially something like the BBEG and her mooks. This lets you fight both at the same time.
Yup. The spiked chain, as used above, is already pretty powerful. Why would anyone want to make this even more so by allowing it to be used in a TWF combo? If abused, the player could waltz through combat encounters with little effort, for the most part. It would kind of take the fun out of the game . . .
See my post from Tuesday, 10:41 PM. Spiked chain vs. ranged skirmishers: not useful. Spiked chain vs. grapplers: not useful. Heck, spiked chain vs. high Str giants (or other large creatures with high Str): just another melee weapon unless also a high Str giant (you try and trip something that's bigger and probably stronger than you). And the number of feats you need to invest are horrible (Combat Expertise, Dual-wield Chain, Exotic Weapon, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Focus just to start). Also, when using the spiked chain as a double weapon, it's treated as one-handed with one end and light with the other and loses the reach benefit.
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See my post from Tuesday, 10:41 PM. Spiked chain vs. ranged skirmishers: not useful. Spiked chain vs. grapplers: not useful. Heck, spiked chain vs. high Str giants (or other large creatures with high Str): just another melee weapon unless also a high Str giant (you try and trip something that's bigger and probably stronger than you). And the number of feats you need to invest are horrible (Combat Expertise, Dual-wield Chain, Exotic Weapon, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Focus just to start).
I agree with you. There are of course monsters that will still be challenging - but your plain-jane vanilla humanoids will probably get torn to shreds.
See my post from Tuesday, 10:41 PM. Spiked chain vs. ranged skirmishers: not useful. Spiked chain vs. grapplers: not useful. Heck, spiked chain vs. high Str giants (or other large creatures with high Str): just another melee weapon unless also a high Str giant (you try and trip something that's bigger and probably stronger than you). And the number of feats you need to invest are horrible (Combat Expertise, Dual-wield Chain, Exotic Weapon, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Focus just to start).I agree with you. There are of course monsters that will still be challenging - but your plain-jane vanilla humanoids will probably get torn to shreds.
I direct you to the wonderful Shield Ward feat in the PHB II, with which the shield bonus applies to touch AC and against bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip. It even uses Shield Specialization as the prerequisite, which improves the shield bonus by +1.
Sounds like you're making a bad situation (the spiked chain is widely believed to be the cheesiest aspect of 3.x weapon selection) and making it worse. Now they get 2 attacks/round at 1st level?
How is that worse than taking Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting?
Even if it was allowed the character would still be fighting with huge penalties unless they also took the two weapon fighting feat.
There is little difference between Spiked Chain and
a charater using a Guisarme with a flail ready to Quickdraw.
Both require a feat to use (either Exotic Weapon or Quickdraw).
Or better yet, a Guisarme with Spiked Gauntlet &/or Spiked Armor.
This combo does't even require a special feat to benefit from it.
you still get reach with the same damage and still threaten the immediate area with your spiked gauntlet or armor.
Yes spiked armor deals less damage than the spiked chain,
but Taking Exotic feat in bastard sword essentially lets you use a Bastard Sword (1d10) one handed instead of a longsword (1d8)
So in effect for one feat you gain an increase in damage.
The same deal applies with Spiked Chain.
Arguably the benefits of trip and disarm make this a little more powerful. But I certainly don't think it is game breaking.
In my campaign I do rule that Finesse weapons (rapier, whip, spiked chain) cannot benefit from power attack (just like light weapons) [p. 98 PHB]
Thus if someone wants to use spiked chain, they can't power attack with it. (Yes I know there is a viable argument for being able to gain these benefits, but my campaign - my rules)
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As far as using a spiked chain as a Double Weapon,
I do think that is giving too much to the weapon as it is.
Though a feat that allowed you to do so certainly isn't out of the question.
Improved Exotic Proficiency: Spiked Chain
Prereq: Exotic Proficiency: Spiked Chain
You may choose to treat the spiked chain as a double weapon, on any round that you do so, you may not use it as a reach weapon.
When using the Spiked chain as a double weapon, you may treat the off-hand weapon as light. You incur all normal penalties for fighting with Two-Weapons when wielding the spiked chain in this manner.
Basically the sequence runs: chain wielder trips target, gets free attack, takes remaining attacks (if any) at prone target; target stands up, drawing AoO, makes single attack; rinse, repeat. The tripper is getting an extra attack each round while limiting the target to single attacks. That's a pretty damn good option. Also, a spiked chain wielding fighter can do this starting at 3rd level (2nd if human), assuming they also take Weapon Focus. Add Power Attack at the next level and it becomes really nasty.
This tactic works equally well with a guisarme and requires one less feat. The tripper does not actually net a gain of an extra attack, they must use an attack to trip the foe, and then get that one back by striking the prone foe. If the trip fails, they don't get anything.
A fighter in my campaign uses guisamrme
(Improved trip, combat reflexes, weapon focus, gr. focus, weapon spec, power attack) seems it would be no more or less nasty if he had Spiked Chain.
Basically the sequence runs: chain wielder trips target, gets free attack, takes remaining attacks (if any) at prone target; target stands up, drawing AoO, makes single attack; rinse, repeat. The tripper is getting an extra attack each round while limiting the target to single attacks. That's a pretty damn good option. Also, a spiked chain wielding fighter can do this starting at 3rd level (2nd if human), assuming they also take Weapon Focus. Add Power Attack at the next level and it becomes really nasty.This tactic works equally well with a guisarme and requires one less feat. The tripper does not actually net a gain of an extra attack, they must use an attack to trip the foe, and then get that one back by striking the prone foe. If the trip fails, they don't get anything.
A fighter in my campaign uses guisamrme
(Improved trip, combat reflexes, weapon focus, gr. focus, weapon spec, power attack) seems it would be no more or less nasty if he had Spiked Chain.
The added attack comes from the AoO drawn from the opponent standing up. The added benefit to a spiked chain is that it is a reach weapon that can be used against adjacent targets. The Short Haft feat in PHB II lets you use a reach polearm against adjacent targets, but you must choose each round if you are attacking as a reach weapon or not. A spiked chain wielder can make attacks at both reach AND adjacent targets in the same round, if they have the attacks available (Cleave is another powerful feat for a spiked chain wielder because of this).
Sounds like you're making a bad situation (the spiked chain is widely believed to be the cheesiest aspect of 3.x weapon selection) and making it worse. Now they get 2 attacks/round at 1st level?There is little difference between Spiked Chain and
a charater using a Guisarme with a flail ready to Quickdraw.
At a minimum this means trying to make two good magical weapons. A good chain wielder build is going to be wracking up magical bonus' especially magical tripping bonus' to their spiked chain. The goal here is obscene tripping bonus'. Most games will have a very large number of Large or smaller sized nemies. You want it so that if you attack such an enemy your nearly certain to hit and if you hit their going to be flat on their ass. Admittedly this won't work against huge and larger enemies but the chain should still be a viable weapon even used just to wack people.
I direct you to the wonderful Shield Ward feat in the PHB II, with which the shield bonus applies to touch AC and against bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip. It even uses Shield Specialization as the prerequisite, which improves the shield bonus by +1.See my post from Tuesday, 10:41 PM. Spiked chain vs. ranged skirmishers: not useful. Spiked chain vs. grapplers: not useful. Heck, spiked chain vs. high Str giants (or other large creatures with high Str): just another melee weapon unless also a high Str giant (you try and trip something that's bigger and probably stronger than you). And the number of feats you need to invest are horrible (Combat Expertise, Dual-wield Chain, Exotic Weapon, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Focus just to start).I agree with you. There are of course monsters that will still be challenging - but your plain-jane vanilla humanoids will probably get torn to shreds.
In my experience this feat is its essentially a waste. Might be OK at low levels but I don't think a low level character can really afford the feat chain considering the other alternatives. Basically speaking this feat turns an obscenely low touch AC (often 10+3 for dex = 13) into something thats still dead easy to hit (maybe 17-21 touch AC). In practice your still pretty much always going to get hit. Its just not worth it to use something as valuable as a feat so that the chance of being hit drops from 95% down to a mere 80%. Reality is that, by the time we are talking about 8+ level adventurers, attacks are going to be in the +15 to hit range, if the attacks happen to be touch they are still going to be +15 or better to hit.
One of my martial players picked this up at 8th level and so far as I can tell I've still almost always hit him with touch attacks in the last two levels. Furthermore this feat is just going to get ever more useless. If my monsters usually have around +15 to their attack while he's 10th their likely to be in the range of +20 by the time he's 12th level, so even if he some how manages to get his touch AC up to 22 (pretty freaken hard) I'd still only miss on a 1.
In my experience this feat is its essentially a waste. Might be OK at low levels but I don't think a low level character can really afford the feat chain considering the other alternatives. Basically speaking this feat turns an obscenely low touch AC (often 10+3 for dex = 13) into something thats still dead easy to hit (maybe 17-21 touch AC). In practice your still pretty much always going to get hit. Its just not worth it to use something as valuable as a feat so that the chance of being hit drops from 95% down to a mere 80%. Reality is that, by the time we are talking about 8+ level adventurers, attacks are going to be in the +15 to hit range, if the attacks happen to be touch they are still going to be +15 or better to hit.There are of course monsters that will still be challenging - but your plain-jane vanilla humanoids will probably get torn to shreds.I direct you to the wonderful Shield Ward feat in the PHB II, with which the shield bonus applies to touch AC and against bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip. It even uses Shield Specialization as the prerequisite, which improves the shield bonus by +1.
Touch attacks are almost always going to hit significantly often, but Shield Ward is still a good choice because "the shield bonus applies to touch AC and against bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip." If your mooks split their feats between offensive and defensive, they tend to be tougher for the PCs to take out.
The added attack comes from the AoO drawn from the opponent standing up.
Ahh, my mistake I thought you were talking about the attack granted by the Improved Trip feat.
The added benefit to a spiked chain is that it is a reach weapon that can be used against adjacent targets.
The Short Haft feat in PHB II lets you use a reach polearm against adjacent targets, but you must choose each round if you are attacking as a reach weapon or not. A spiked chain wielder can make attacks at both reach AND adjacent targets in the same round, if they have the attacks available (Cleave is another powerful feat for a spiked chain wielder because of this).
I hadn't thought of that...
I have always played that since Power attack can't apply to light weapons (and power attack is a prereq for cleave) then light weapons can't be used to cleave. I don't think there is an official rule on this one way or the other.I treat Finesse weapons as light weapons with respect to the Power attack feat, thus the spiked chain (and Whip and Rapier) can't be used to power attack or cleave.
At a minimum this means trying to make two good magical weapons.
But your odds of finding a magical flail are much better than that of finding a magical spiked chain.
But your odds of finding a magical flail are much better than that of finding a magical spiked chain.
Ahh - in my game the players would take their gold to the Magic Shoppe and have one made. But even if you don't allow that I'm not sure its that much more common to find both a magical flail and a magical Guisarme compared to just a magical chain. Its also a lot less effective if your using the wealth by level guidelines since you end up with two weak weapons compared to one strong one.
Ahh - in my game the players would take their gold to the Magic Shoppe and have one made.
Oh I certainly wouldn't argue that, I do allow player's to commision magical items to be constructed. But as per PHB p 112, "a character can buy anything that costs as much as 3,000 gp. Buying a more expensive item...[means] making a special deal with someone who can make or can provide the item, or paying a premium price..."
Anytime a player (in my campaign) wants something like that made, they usually have to quest to retrieve a rare item or ingredient for the NPC crafting it, or pay up to double the cost.
Of course they can always invest in the feats to craft it themselves.
Ahh - in my game the players would take their gold to the Magic Shoppe and have one made.Oh I certainly wouldn't argue that, I do allow player's to commision magical items to be constructed. But as per PHB p 112, "a character can buy anything that costs as much as 3,000 gp. Buying a more expensive item...[means] making a special deal with someone who can make or can provide the item, or paying a premium price..."
Anytime a player (in my campaign) wants something like that made, they usually have to quest to retrieve a rare item or ingredient for the NPC crafting it, or pay up to double the cost.
Of course they can always invest in the feats to craft it themselves.
Mine go to a city except when they are at the lowest levels - at which point it does not matter as they don't have 3000 gp to spend on a single item.
3,000 gp is the price limit for a large town (2000-5000 people). Go to a larger local and the items you can buy go up (Though 100,000 seems to be were things top out). See p.137 of the DMG.