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Hey all,
My kobold artificer has left the party after the Lotus Dragon warren delve. There were cultural and moral issues that could not be resolved without PvP combat. My character tried to save the life of the kobold cook (unarmed and not agressive) and the dragon (in the negatives and bleeding out) that hung out with the BBEG(or BBEW since it was a woman), but the other characters killed one out of hand and prevented my character from stabilizing the other. Completely disgusted with these murderous humans, he took his share of the treasure and left the party, taking his tale back to his people to further fuel their hatred of humanity.
That being said, our party is now down a character, and I'm at a loss on what to create as a replacement. My dice rolls were great (17 16 13 17 11 9), so I can pretty much make anything viable. Unfortunately, the huge number of options available have left me stymied as to what to choose. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the following character types and any experiences they've had playing or DMing them:
Half Orc Druid
Sun Elf Duskblade
Wood Elf Dragon Shaman -bronze?
Human Swashbuckler/scout
There seems to be a lot of water involved in this campaign, so I think the heavily armoured tank type is out, (so is a Paladin, what with the party's lack of moral fibre), but does anyone have any better suggestions?
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We've got:
LN weretiger monk (ECL 3) -doing the savage progressions thing, High AC but LA makes HP low
CN water spiritfolk BBn 3 -Low AC, higher HP, swim speed, water breathing
NG human bard 2 -doing a bard/druid fey heritage thing, not good for much
LN Cleric of Jurgle (Gurgle? Juggle?) 2 -going true necromancer
CG half elf warlock 2- face man of party, cant shoot to save his life
Sourcewise, we do almost everything except psionics, incarnum and ToB. WotC books only.
The dragon shaman and druid battle tank are my fave options, but that does leave the party without a trap dude. I guess someone else will have to multiclass. Either build option sounds like will be a front line combat guy. There is something fun about a screaming half orc with a club that appeals. Sounds theraputic. :) :)
Personally, I would go druid.
Druids are particularly well suited for this AP and can really strut their stuff from the Bullywug Gambit straight through Serpents of Scuttlecove (that is as far as our group is right now) and for most of the adventures, our Druid was our MVP pick for the majority of the sessions.
Out of the four choices you have given I would vote for Druid because they do well in the AP. Not sure if that will conflict with the Fey Heritage person in the group. You could probably get by without a trap guy in this AP, but a class that might fill in a lot of your gaps would be Beguiler. I admit I really like this class, but besides that it would give you your trap guy and some arcane spell casting that your missing. Instead of focusing the Beguiler as a face man you could focus it more of a illusionist/enchanter type that uses his bluff in combat to increase the power of his magic. Just a thought.
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I think that's the progression we're using for the weretiger. Thanks for bringing it to my attention though.
The Druid might be the winner here, since full spellcasting and wild shape beats out auras and breath weapons. If I make him a charge-o-matic type, do you think headlong rush (FR feat orc/half orc doubles charge dmg, AoO though)and power attack are my best feat choices? Shillelagh and power attack/charge (plus maybe mighty wallop and monkey grip) just seem very hurty.
I don't worry about the cure spell option since the bard seems to be our heal-bot with the wand of CLW.
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I would highly recommend the bronze dragon shaman option. We have one in our party, and he has arguably been our MVP, saving countless PC deaths with his healing aura.
His particular build is a human (Chultan - we're playing in the Realms) with one level of Barbarian, and the rest Dragon Shaman straight through so far. I think he's going for Dragon Disciple PrC at some point.
Another particular quirk on this character is that he's taken the Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds. He gives all his wealth to his bronze dragon patron. It's a pretty nasty combo. Basically I picture Shaquille O'Neal with some Draconic traits and NO bling.
Anyway, as the party's DM, I can say that he's been a VERY valuable PC in our party, and we run a big one (8PCs).
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All the gold to his dragon patron, eh? Has he considered asking the dragon if one of his friends could add him to his bracelet of friends for one emergency save-my-a$$? One doesn't want their source of fresh treasure to get killed, do they?
BTW we're playing in the Wizard's Reach, starting in Escalant. I think the half orc druid would be from the bone swamp or umber marshes. I'm gonna have him ride into town on a waterbuffalo! If I do dragon shaman instead, it will be a wood elf from the Yuirwood or Aglarond. Looks like the druid is gonna win out though since the party needs a hitter and a full spellcaster to anchor them.
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Without spoilers, druid and swashbuckler are going to be the most playable for this campaign which, as I'm sure you've noticed, has lots of water in it. A smartly played druid could make a world of difference several of these adventures. It also looks like your party is flush with hitters, too, so the swashbuckler might be redundant.
I don't know how much you've considered with regards to the scout, but a scout that gets manyshot and shot on the run is a valuable ranged ally. (Precise shot and--eventually--improved precise shot are also pretty much required.) That said, a ranged ranger isn't a bad option, but scout does it a little better, IMO, and they get trapfinding!
The beauty of focusing on ranged combat, is that if you need to overcome DR, or want to use a weapon that is shocking, sacred, or anything, just buy the appropriate ammo, and you don't have to necessarily by the appropriate weapon. Quiver of Ehlonna will become a useful item, and you'll carry plenty arrow of all types of material. Fighting a golem? Break out the adamantine arrows. The weretiger monk finally getting to you. "Thok-thok-thok," go three manyshot silver arrows into his hide (the first arrow of which gets the skirmish damage if you moved, which shot on the run is designed for).
The reason I suggest this kind of character, is that your bard should be buffing, giving you increases to hit and to damage. Your barbarian will be in melee, and so will the monk. The "true necromancer" will eventually be able to heal and inflict wizard-strength damaging evocations and such. Finally, the warlock sounds like he has much going in the way of diplomacy himself. Your party has a lot of overlapping already. While I can see that an artificer might have been one of the perfect choices for this party, a scout or rogue would be an equally good choice, with a ranger as a respectable substitute. (The scout has the advantage, though, as he doesn't have to fall back on improved feint like a rogue often does for sneak, or have to make himself as vulnerable by flanking.)
What's scary is how similar your party is to my players' party. My players' PCs currently consist of:
Lv 6 male half-orc crusader (wields faithful avenger)
Lv 6 male human artificer (serious crafter w/craft points)
Lv 6 male human warlock (former pirate...yarr/face man)
Lv 5/1 female aventi druid/master of many forms (covers tracking/survival)
Lv 6 male silverbrow (Dragon Magic?) human fighter (knife thrower)
Good luck with the campaign! All my players have spoken very highly of it. Don't let any early squibbles set you back, either. Maybe it's a Chaotic Neutral world, after all!
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The beauty of focusing on ranged combat...
Yeh, I tried the whole archer thing once. It was great; lots of killy goodness. Problem was that I was dropping 1000's of gp in major encounters and my share of the treasure never made up the expenditures (My DM is notoriously cheap with treasure). So, while I enjoyed trying the archer build once, I don't think it'll work for me again.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the druid. I've never played one and they can be pretty good all rounders if built right. I'll use the racial substitution levels to boost him a bit, and add some orcy feats to boot.
As for the whole quibble over my old PC's reaction, it's no biggie. I've played with my group for years, and we'll work around it. My DM will probably let it bite them in the a$$ later though >:)
I caution you against even considering using a Vow of Poverty character. As the adventure is written, VoP does not work. There is a span of around 10 levels where you will not have any significant contact with civilization. Certainly, you will not have an ancient guardian dragon tagging along the entire time to collect. Even with maximum strength, your character will not be physically capable of carting around all those levels worth of loot long enough to get to a place where tithing is even possible. Without access to VoP-breaking storage or transport magic, you'll end up having to abandon part of your share, which itself will violate the VoP.
And that's even assuming the other PCs don't get upset about all the wasted loot first. If they're morally challenged (and your experience with Churtle suggests that they are), I don't think they'll find your tithing habit amusing.
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Looking at your current party composition and have read the adventures I would so go Druid.As far as a build is concerned I might look on the WotC boards for that depending on what you want.Im positive that you will enjoy playing one in this campaign.
On a side note if your fellow players and you are at odds with how things are dealt with in the game, then I dont think it will matter what you play.I dont know what your group is like so maybe this isnt an issue, but I would try and work out any thing that might lead to future arguments like the one that lead to creating a new character in the first place.
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I would never take a VoP in the game we are playing. I think that was another player in another gaming group :) I think that I will have less use for "keeping up with the Jones'" wealth gathering with a druid (no cost spells, wild shape, animal buddy), but I'm not gonna say no to a ring of evasion if it comes my way. ;)
Yes, I am continually frustrated by their gravitation towards CN in every campaign. These are supposedly mature people, but they don't want to be fettered by inconvenient morality. They are my friends though, and I won't let an in-game conflict get in the way of my fun.
What's scary is that the LN kobold (a race of notoriously evil creatures) was actually prevented from performing acts of mercy. Twice. What's even more alarming is that the NG player was one of the biggest opponents and the player of the other good aligned character actually asked the DM what it would cost to have my character murdered to keep him from causing trouble down the road! What a booped up world we live in where kobold trapsmiths act like paladins and good aligned half-elves hire assassins to murder former party members. LOL!
Thank Sobek I won't have that problem again though. Did I say Sobek? Er, I meant Osiris. Yeh, that's it. Osiris.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the druid. I've never played one and they can be pretty good all rounders if built right. I'll use the racial substitution levels to boost him a bit, and add some orcy feats to boot.Your decision to play a druid is quite sound as he blends perfectly with the Adventure Path. Although, what I would recommend is a druid not combat oriented but rather as a spellcaster with an animal companion to protect him and finish off weakened foes.
I currently play a druid4/wizard3/arcane hierophant5 (prestige class from Races of the Wild) character with a dinosaur familiar companion (I cannot remember now which type, but if you are interested I can check it out) who kicks a.....! The companion is buffed from druid and wizard spell list (we use spell compendium) and it has the ability to leap as part of charge and trip opponents of equal size, making it a juggernaut that cannot be hitted easily.
The druid has a good list of spells and with the addition of the wizard he is never exhausted of spells. Plus the fact of the scribe scroll and you are always ready.
If you want to know sth more I'll be happy to answer.
Mormegil
I'd recommend an arcane caster -- a bard and a warlock and a multiclass cleric/wizard are pretty dubious substitutes, IMO.
(I'd go with a psionic character, but sadly that's not an option for you.)
I am the player of the Bronze Dragon Shaman that Fiendish Dire Weasel spoke of.
In our expedition to the Lotus Dragon enclave, I managed to save both the cook and the feldrake, partly due to luck. Our first descent into the lair had us down either 3 or 4 players (of 8) so the fights greatly resembled our swashbuckler getting put to negatives each time and then brought back up by my Vigor aura to turn the tide when we were on the ropes.
When we encountered the kitchen, we'd been through about half of the complex, so were rather beat down and our shugenja was running low on spells. I offered the Kobold free passage out of the lair if she would deliver a message to our friends staying at the inn, so we could justify the rest of the party showing up next session. I would have liked to keep her on as cook, but after performing her task and being paid, she hightailed it out of Sasserine to avoid any repurcussions of "betraying" her lady.
Guttugger on the other hand was sheer luck. We had all 8 members present, so the office was crowded even after FDW enlarged it somewhat. Most of us were only at half hps when the encounter started and healing magic was all but exhausted, so rather than wait around for a spot to open up in combat, i began imploring the Guttugger in draconic to surrender, and intimidating that if he did not, his life was forfeit, child of Ubtao or not. He ended up surrendering after Rowyn tried to user her potion to escape, knowing that she had been about to abandon him. He is now serving on board the Sea Wyvern in much the same capacity as he did Rowyn in the guild, keeping eyes and ears open for things and aren't guarded around "just a dumb animal"
As for the Vow of Poverty, there is no guardian dragon following us around, saving us from anything. We have yet to leave the waters around Chult, so currently the Wyvern is carrying everyones treasure til we can get somewhere to convert it into more portable means. What problems it might cause in the future are of no concern now, as I can't use ooc knowledge of where we're headed to influence what feats i take at 1st level. As currently noone has any portable holes or haversacks, we'll all be in the situation for those 10 levels, trying to figure out how to move this new mound of treasure. For now, it is very helpful to not be in competition with half the party for weapons and armor, or boots of this or that. I'll just take my share as that small inordinately pricey thing that my patron has the perfect spot in his hoard for.
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Sounds like you're having a good time with the shaman. They are a fun class. I played one for a short time in a one-off, but this time around I'm going with the druid. I think the party will need the full spell progression from at least one spellcaster and the idea of a big angry orc waiving a club around appeals greatly. :) That, and there was a mention of dinosaurs?! Me want one!
Gut Tugger (wasn't that one of the felines in the musical Cats?)in the game we played was a small green dragon. Interesting how DM's change things, isn't it? Keeps things fresh and terrifying. In the AoW campaign I'm running, most of the key encounters have been changed to reflect the greco-roman theme to my homebrew campaign setting, so I'm not complaining. Hydras and medusas replacing huge crocs and mind flayers etc...lots of fun!
The druid in our party has the most buffed animal companion in existence. He took one level of Beastmaster, which allows him to take an animal companion as if his druid level was three higher in exhange for a lost level of spellcasting. He also took two feats that really help out, one that allows shared spells to be shared at close range (30ft) and another that allows the companion to be physically sent to another plane for safe keeping (a good thing for a large dire ape with a crap will save). We've also tweaked the Sanctified of Ehlonna (Comp Champ) to fit the pygmy halfling version of her (Maia) so that at the last level of the PrC instead of getting a unicorn/griffon buddy that can be summoned a couple times per day, the ape gets a big buff to HD.
The ape is absolutely deadly when buffed, doing 20-35 pts of damage with claws and then 50+ with a rend. The druid has lost a couple of level of spellcasting. I think he's casting at 10th level with 12 levels. Also the party doesn't really need him for healing, with the Radiant Servant of Pelor and the bard's wands, but he is there for in a pinch and was absolutely invaluable during the first 10 levels.
Just a few ideas for your druid! Have fun!
As for the Vow of Poverty, there is no guardian dragon following us around, saving us from anything. We have yet to leave the waters around Chult, so currently the Wyvern is carrying everyones treasure til we can get somewhere to convert it into more portable means. What problems it might cause in the future are of no concern now, as I can't use ooc knowledge of where we're headed to influence what feats i take at 1st level. As currently noone has any portable holes or haversacks, we'll all be in the situation for those 10 levels, trying to figure out how to move this new mound of treasure. For now, it is very helpful to not be in competition with half the party for weapons and armor, or boots of this or that. I'll just take my share as that small inordinately pricey thing that my patron has the perfect spot in his hoard for.
No criticism of you or your character was intended. Criticism of your DM, on the other hand, might be appropriate, since it is my opinion that your DM owes you a warning if circumstances will render some character option less useful than normal.
In this case, your VoP-based feats are going to go poof shortly, and all your VoP-based benefits are going to go poof along with them. Unless your DM wants to make another house rule, donations to *anybody* will not be possible for the bulk of the adventure path. You may wish to contact your DM; presumably having you lose the feat with no compensation was not your DM's intent.
I would go with the druid as well - solid allrounder, capable of healing (Spontaneous Healing (CoDiv) and Healing Touch Feats (CoCha) sping to mind for a more flexible selection of spells. ). Plus, you will probably love the Isle of Dread.
A short lived (not through his own fault) druid cohort around here went with the "Elemental Companion" option from Complete Mage, all-out with Augmented Summoning _and_ Augment Elemental... nasty nasty combo ! Elementals with effective +4HP/HD and +4 Attack....
As for your GM not permitting meta-gaming knowledge/hunches to influence your choice - sorry, IMHO (GMing for like... two dozen years now ?) it is the "job" of the GM to provide a satisfyingly interesting, enjoyable and balanced game - having your character steer frontally into a major development problem and forbidding you to act on this knowledge is ..... not really helpful to this, sorry to say.
Good Luck
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As for your GM not permitting meta-gaming knowledge/hunches to influence your choice - sorry, IMHO (GMing for like... two dozen years now ?) it is the "job" of the GM to provide a satisfyingly interesting, enjoyable and balanced game - having your character steer frontally into a major development problem and forbidding you to act on this knowledge is ..... not really helpful to this, sorry to say.
Good Luck
Well again, as I said, I only had 3 issues of the AP when we did character creation, so it's not something I could really have forseen. And we'll work around it.
As for your GM not permitting meta-gaming knowledge/hunches to influence your choice - sorry, IMHO (GMing for like... two dozen years now ?) it is the "job" of the GM to provide a satisfyingly interesting, enjoyable and balanced game - having your character steer frontally into a major development problem and forbidding you to act on this knowledge is ..... not really helpful to this, sorry to say.
Good Luck
Well again, as I said, I only had 3 issues of the AP when we did character creation, so it's not something I could really have forseen. And we'll work around it.
oh, sorry, I didn't make the connection between your post and the OP. *bonk self*
mea culpa
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In this case, your VoP-based feats are going to go poof shortly, and all your VoP-based benefits are going to go poof along with them. Unless your DM wants to make another house rule, donations to *anybody* will not be possible for the bulk of the adventure path. You may wish to contact your DM; presumably having you lose the feat with no compensation was not your DM's intent.
Yeah, buddy! That little chapel at Farshore is about to get a little sumpin' in the poor box!