As written in the book, I had the Stormblades provoke the party while they were celebrating in the tavern. What followed was an exchange of insults which quickly escalated into a "let's take this outside" situation. The PCs, who were all drunk, didn't have the presence of mind to hold anything back. They did all lethal damage, and the fight quickly turned ugly. The fighter scored a critical hit on Todd Vanderboren with his greatsword, decapitating him. The sight of the noble's head rolling down the street was enough to sober them up, at which point the PCs all dropped their weapons in horror and were promptly arrested.
How do you think I should play this out, in such a way that nobody has to roll up new characters?
I have thought of a few things... for example, Lord Vhalantru intercedes on their behalf and negotiates a settlement with the other members of the council, whereby the PCs only have to pay a hefty fine... which Vhalantru graciously "loans" to them.
Of course, Todd's parents will raise him if they can. What are the rules for raise dead, exactly? I know the body has to be 'whole' but if the severed head is present, can they sew it back on or something and revive him in that condition?
Even if Todd were raised from the dead, he still spent some time being dead. As an evil NPC, what sort of afterlife would he go to? Having experienced that (probably unpleasant) afterlife, do you think it would be unreasonable for his alignment to shift to neutral or even good?
Even if the PCs do make it out of the situation as free men, won't this drastically change the way the Stormblades, and the general public, look on them? The nobles would likely look upon them as little more than drunkards and savages.
The rivalry between the PCs and the Stormblades has always intrigued me and I see it as a great roleplaying opportunity. There are many ways that it can pan out, from all-out war to a friendly alliance. What do you think?
I would put him in jail and make the other party members pay a large fine and do community work.
The community work could take the form of jobs for the city ranging from -
Cleaning up
The party have to clean up the graffiti left by the goblins in chapter two and find another enclave of them hidden in an old warehouse.
The party may be told to clean up the lake and surrounding streets in preparation of the lakeside Flood Festival competition(they could find the Bluecrators Professor' skeleton and clue to his death in the waters - see Skies Treasury write up in theRPGenius.com).
Festival Guards
During the Festival the guard is always stretched so additional guards are always welcome. The party could encounter a back alley battle between Alleybashers and Last Laugh. They may find the 'almost' abandoned shrine to 'The Smoking Eye' that Triel belonged to and murdered her patrol years earlier when they chanced upon it.
Bounter Hunters
The party may be told they need to hunt down a known villian such as Triel, a Necrocants member, the forger who is creating the LL coins etc.
Jail
The character who is in jail may spend a few days in cold boring solitude until another prisoner is thrown in with him. The prisoner turns out to be Artus who is able to pick the lock and allow the character to escape with the help of the Last Laugh.
The character is offered a cap of disguise by only if he will secretly work for the Last Laugh. If he refuses he is handed back over to the guard if he accepts from time to time he is asked to inform the LL on the party, influential figures such as Jenya, the Striders, the Chisel etc. Eventually the LL up the level of request beyond information to tasks and small missions. If he informs the party of his link to the LL then they assure him they will know and hand him over to the guards if he is lucky, kill him and his friends if he is not.
If this point on the Stormblades and their families will attempt to make life very difficult for the party. Shop keepers will refuse to serve them unless the party earns their trust. Evil rumours will be spread about the party etc
Have fun with the situation given to you. It will make the city feel even more realistica and alive to your group if you do.
Delvesdeep
I'm not sure I can see what interest Vhalantru has in saving the PCs from themselves at this point. He's been keeping his eye on them so that they don't cause him any trouble, but knows that they will have to be eliminated if they should prove to be a nuissance in the future. So, if they should manage to eliminate themselves from the scene before they become a problem for Vhalantru, all the better for him.
I'd be sure that the punishments are separated among the PCs according to the severity of their individual actions. For the PC who dealt the killing blow to Todd (Oh, how my group would have loved to do that!), he should most definitely spend some time in Skellerang's jail. The others could be handled with fines and community service (I like the Festival Guards idea from Delvesdeep.).
For the murderer, I'd say stage a trial! Those can be quite a lot of fun and provide a ton of role-playing opportunities. Bring in several NPCs to share what they saw the night of the incident, carefully craft some indignant statemnents for the remaining Stormblades describing their innocence in the matter, and call each of your PCs to the stands to testify to their actions (What alignments are you working with?)
For the PC stuck in jail, you could give him an opportunity for escape when the Last Laugh comes to break out several of their members. The PC could become the renegade party member, whatever that entails. Maybe you could give him an opportunity to make up for his actions when he overhears some captured Last Laughers whispering about a plot to rob the Vanderboren estate.
There are really a whole lot of possibilities there. How exciting!
Regards,
Koramado
I like the idea of a trial also. It would be a great idea (as Mothman suggested) to first introduce Alek if you haven't done so already and to also introduce 3 judges such as Vhalantru, Teresong & Embril. The prosecuter could be Lord Taskerhill.
The three judges (assuming you use this format) could represent three different extremes -
Embril = starting atitude - hostile
Teresong = indifferent
Vhalantru = friendly (well at least appearing that way)
Bring in a few witnesses which also play an important role in later events.
Makes for an interesting plot device.
Delvesdeep
I agree with many of the previous posts about the trial and the possible punishments. So I will attempt to look at the other questions asked.
I have thought of a few things... for example, Lord Vhalantru intercedes on their behalf and negotiates a settlement with the other members of the council, whereby the PCs only have to pay a hefty fine... which Vhalantru graciously "loans" to them.
Vhalantru will likely let them sink or swim on their own in front of everyone else. He doesn't need to politically risk himself for the group. Ticking off the families of the Stormblades to help a fledgling group is WAY too risky. Of course, he could privately offer the loan mentioned before, so now the group owes him and he has something to hold over their heads.
Of course, Todd's parents will raise him if they can. What are the rules for raise dead, exactly? I know the body has to be 'whole' but if the severed head is present, can they sew it back on or something and revive him in that condition?
Based on http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm in the SRD, Raise Dead heals "lethal wounds". So the casting of Raise Dead will "sew" Todd's head back on. The spell has to be cast within a week or so, based on the cleric's level. As for the cost, a scroll of Raise Dead usually costs 6125 GP, which should be factored into the fine. The loss of Todd's character level could be added to the fine, at possibly 5 gp/xp point lost. This would be a "ballpark" figure for how much Todd's family would chase them for proper reparations.
Even if Todd were raised from the dead, he still spent some time being dead. As an evil NPC, what sort of afterlife would he go to? Having experienced that (probably unpleasant) afterlife, do you think it would be unreasonable for his alignment to shift to neutral or even good?
Are you following the "typical" Greyhawk Pantheons? Or are you using a different religious system? The typical AD&D setup integrates into Planescape, where Chaotic Evil souls are relegated to the Abyss. Once there, Todd's soul would be transformed into a Lemure, for use as the demons see fit. For the most part, the demons do not torture the lemures in order to make them pay for their sins in life. They use them as cannon fodder for the great battles they fight among themselves and against the other evil races. Lemures, if they succeed, have the opportunity to become more powerful demons. Eventually, as demons, the Chaotic Evil soul will achieve power and a place in the demonic heirarchy.
What does this mean for Todd? The AD&D "afterlife" is not Christian Heaven and Hell, with all people striving for Heaven as a goal. Each alignment has a place that their souls "match" and in that place, they experience something similar to what they lived in life. Chaotic Evil souls strive against other Chaotic Evil souls to achieve dominance through backstabbing, betrayal and complete selfishness. Would Todd be offended by this? Sure, he would experience awful things, but he would know that dominating and betraying your fellows leads to advancement. And this is the life model he has picked. I would have him traumatized on his return, and then make a value judgement.
Of course, if your religious model for your campaign is not Planescape or even Greyhawk, then you can have whatever you wish to happen. Ultimately, the DM should be making decisions that make things fun for the players and create a better story.
My response below does not answer any of your questions, Skylight. Sorry for that, but I wanted to explore some of the alternate possibilities, just in case other DMs would like to avoid this sort of difficult situation.
When PCs get into legal troubles (which I'd do my best to help them avoid, since they're to become heroes of Cauldron), I think it's important to consider legal punishment (if any) that falls in line with the sentence (if any) you determined fitting for Keygan Ghelve in your campaign. If he received jail time for his crimes, then letting a PC get away with no jail time for manslaughter undermines the rule of law in your version of Cauldron.
In my campaign, Ghelve was sentenced to a year in prison, and the party paladin thought he got off easy! If one of the PCs, drunk or not, killed a citizen, they'd definitely be looking at time in prison. Killing a noble in my campaign is considered worse and carries a harsher punishment. I'd have done my best to point out to a player bent on doing lethal damage that there would be consequences if he or she did serious harm to anyone. If they continued down that path to the same conclusion as did your player, there'd be little chance of escaping jail time, effectively removing the PC from the campaign.
This is my campaign, though, and it's likely different from many others. My players are almost all in their thirties, and they enjoy a bit of Rule of Law in the game. Their PCs all had to be of Good or Neutral alignments, and carrying out an evil act carries consequences. I think it's important to point out to players when their PC are getting into dangerous territory, even metagaming to do so. Their characters would certainly have a grasp of the trouble into which they were getting, and there's no dishonor in metagaming to point that out, assuming that clues given in-game didn't dissuade them.
However it goes in your game, I think that Jenya and Alek would certainly have a problem with the PC in question. Players choosing to participate in drunken brawls that leave a noble dead aren't likely to be defended by the Church of St. Cuthbert. That could present some challenges for the PCs when it comes to asking for guidance, healing, etc, and the character would have a long way to go to redeem himself in the eyes of the Church.
Anyway, I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think these are points worth considering.
I think it's important to consider legal punishment (if any) that falls in line with the sentence (if any) you determined fitting for Keygan Ghelve in your campaign. If he received jail time for his crimes, then letting a PC get away with no jail time for manslaughter undermines the rule of law in your version of Cauldron.
I heartily agree. It is only when there is consistency that things work well. It should be obvious when there isn't consistency, so the PCs have a chance to smell a rat.
However it goes in your game, I think that Jenya and Alek would certainly have a problem with the PC in question. Players choosing to participate in drunken...
Drunkenness and the brawls that follow are definitely chaotic activities, and so while the church of Kord may "approve" or at least not be overly against it, the Church of Cuthbert and Pelor (and even Wee Jas) will feel no sorrow for the PCs and will be quite harsh.
Hopefully, the player understands that there are dire consequences to such choices. I once had a campaign where a chaotic character took the game for a ride after he burned down a village, and then had the rest of the group chasing him across the countryside. While it was "entertaining" for the players, it completely sidelined any plot and made things much more difficult as the entire group was smeared by one person's actions.
If you have a good relationship with your players, they will either accept that the character will be difficult to continue play with, or you must be willing to sideline the story as they are now less than the heroes they could have been. If they are just starting the Flood Festival (as this was where the Stormblades were originally supposed to taunt the PCs), there is little chance that Jenya will approach the group to rescue Sarcem at the Lucky Monkey. Which breaks more things for this whole adventure.
Of course, you could be more creative than anyone here and come up with something that works for your group that allows them to get back on track.
I wish you luck, as I understand how hard things will be to proceed.
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This is a good example of where the intersection of reality (Crime and Punishment) and D&D (the use of magic) conflict. In the real world - murder/manslaughter is treated harshly because you can't bring the person back. In D&D, there is always the possibility that the person can be raised from the dead.
You have already mentioned a willingness to have Todd's parents raise him - so the PCs didn't really "permanently" kill him, did they? Does this drop the punishment down to a lesser degree - possibly something akin to aggravated assault? Or are they still punished, on moral grounds, for taking Todd's life (albeit briefly)?
Ultimately, it's up to you to decide how harshly you want to handle this. You don't want your PCs to think that no matter what they do, you'll bail them out. You also don't want to foster a belief that they can kill nobles and get away with it, with no repercussions. This is balanced against the overarching desire to have fun and continue with the campaign and the established PCs. I agree with some of the above posts regarding possible punishments. Really, just give careful consideration to how you proceed.
This is a good example of where the intersection of reality (Crime and Punishment) and D&D (the use of magic) conflict. In the real world - murder/manslaughter is treated harshly because you can't bring the person back. In D&D, there is always the possibility that the person can be raised from the dead.
You have already mentioned a willingness to have Todd's parents raise him - so the PCs didn't really "permanently" kill him, did they? Does this drop the punishment down to a lesser degree - possibly something akin to aggravated assault? Or are they still punished, on moral grounds, for taking Todd's life (albeit briefly)?
An interesting concept, assuming a few things - 1) there is someone available who is willing to cast the Raise Dead spell, and 2) someone is willing to pony up the cash for the spell (5000gp diamond). In a chaotic city (i.e. the Drow's underground cities), this idea of death being inconvenient might be more likely as they fight among the families. Cauldron is listed as a Neutral Good city. Most people cannot afford Raise Dead, so it is murder/manslaughter regardless.
A theft is a theft, even if the stolen items are returned. I cannot see the court saying it is a lesser charge. I can see them reducing the punishment if the defendant is more than willing to work with the system (i.e. repentant, pleads guilty, etc). At the same time, because the victim is a noble (and not a common criminal/slave), the punishment should be higher, as people of station are "more important" than those of lesser ones. This is a basis of the Feudal system, along with the belief that the gods have chosen your station when you are born, so you live the life you "deserve".
Is it fair? Of course not to us. But to the PCs, this should be par for the course, especially in a noble-controlled city such as Cauldron.
Looking back I remembered a possible resource for just such an occasion as this. You can download "Crime and Punishment in Cauldron" on theRPGenius.com. It is a nice document shared by steev42 with some ideas on Cauldron nobility, crime and punishments.
I have to say, I wouldn't be too keen on the idea that killing someone is somehow a lesser crime just because the magic to restore life exists. Especially when the victim is of the elite nobility. Circumstances should be taken into account, of course, hence a trial which will provide some great roleplaying fun.
I could settle for the argument that punishments may be lessened provided there is some compensation to the Vanderboren family to offset their expenses in raising Todd. But I would think that the city itself has an interest in making an example of the PC as well, through community service and/or imprisonment, so that all citizens are reminded of the consequences of such actions within the city.
And regardless of how the scenario plays out between the PCs and the Vanderboren family and other high level NPCs in town, the general populace will have their own reactions to this event. I imagine that there would be varying levels of fear, disdain, indifference, and support. All of these could play into PC interactions in Cauldron throughout the campaign as the PCs continue to heroically save the townsfolk and improve their sullied reputation.
Anyway, I thought the document linked above might be of some interest. Enough for now. :)
Regards,
Koramado