Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As way of background, in my current campaign, for whatever reason, my players have put together the most worthless pile of adventurers known to man. They are relatively useless, far from optimized, and border on incompetent. I nearly killed the campaign they sucked so much.
(As a side note, one irony is that the party includes such alledgely broken classes as the warlock, the duskblade, and the scout.)
Anyway, there is also an efreet in the party. He is the de facto secondary tank. However, he rolled a 2 on his last hit die. He's only got around 20-25 hp and he's 5th level.
In the interest of survivability, I want to give him a magic item to increase his hp. Is there any such item in the core rules (other than Con bumping items, of course)? If not, anyone have any guidelines on how much such a thing should cost and how it should work? Part of me wants to have it grant x hp/level, but that's not the way magic items normally work. The other option would be to have it provide a fixed number of hp and price it as, say, a skill bump item, but double the cost early on (similar to how weapons cost exponentially more than armor).
Thoughts?
Contributor
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City of the Spider Queen had a bunch of npcs with Amulets of False Life.
IIRC these granted 50 bonus HP, but were used up when the HP were lost. Bit of a double whammy giving the npcs a bunch of HP from their treasure that was auto-destroyed by the PCs defeating them, so the PCs could never collect them.
Hmmm... This has relevance on the snowball thread.
EDIT: I said Queen of the Demonweb first time; I meant CotSQ
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You could treat it as an always-on False Life item. I think the default DMG price for that is 12K GP, but I have no immediate intuition about whether that's reasonable.
Upon looking at it again, False Life usable 5 times per day would cost the same and would be more useful to the character. And you could reduce the number of times/day to reduce the price.
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I don't know of any "official" magic item that does what you are suggesting (except for the Con bonus as you mentioned).
How about the following...
Vigor is a 1st level psion power. We can at least use that as a template...
Psionics are a little wierd for magic items as the equivalent power level increases for augmentable powers. But using the spell level x caster level x 2,000 / 5 for an item that is usable 1 per day to grant temporary hit points (assuming that it takes up a body slot) I get the following costs...
5 temporary hp -- 400 gp
10 temp hp -- 800 gp
15 hp -- 2,400 gp
20 hp -- 3,200 gp
25 hp -- 6,000 gp
30 hp -- 7,200 gp
35 hp -- 11,200 gp
40 hp -- 12,800 gp
45 hp -- 18,000 gp
50 hp -- 20,000 gp
If you want the person to be able to use it twice a day, double the cost. (These costs are if you were to buy said item.)
Hope that helps.
You could treat it as an always-on False Life item. I think the default DMG price for that is 12K GP, but I have no immediate intuition about whether that's reasonable.
i've created an item exactly like this.
Ring of Vitality- +13 hit points. Value- 12,000 gp.
(note: functions as always-on False Life at caster level 3, thus the 13 hit points and [2*3*2000] price).
messy
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Contributor
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Right, I checked CotSQ: Amulet of Dark Blessing
24 bonus HP, once used, item is destroyed, 1200 gp apparently based on shield other rather than false life, and this is from 3.0, so who knows what that means.
Does remind me though. Ring of Friend Shield is from the DMG. Hugely expensive though.
I put a vest of false life in an adventure I designed years ago, I don't remember if I made it up or if I found it in a book (I think I probably got it from a book, because I tend to keep meticulous notes on magic items I create, and I don't have anything about it in my files, maybe it was from Tome and Blood as that is where false life first appeared IIRC).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thank you everyone. Just as a follow up question, do you not have concerns about the power level of a continuous false life item? 12k seems relatively cheap, particularly for a wizard. My worry is that false life is a spell not unlike true strike, where the numbers don't accurately reflect the power. This isn't entirely relevant to my situation, but I want to be careful not to have the artificer start mass-producing these items for the whole party if they are too useful.
Those amulets with the ablative hit points are pure mean. I love them. I think I will use those as well...
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Just as a follow up question, do you not have concerns about the power level of a continuous false life item? 12k seems relatively cheap, particularly for a wizard. My worry is that false life is a spell not unlike true strike, where the numbers don't accurately reflect the power.
I have a problem with what a "continuous false life" looks like. It is granting temporary hit points. I guess that I feel that a continuous false life is only as continuous as you have temporary hit points left. Having an item that is usable a specified number of times a day seems to make more sense to me.
12k seems ok -- two reasons. 1) It helps keep the players alive. 2) Really, what good is an additional 13 hp going to do? It will keep them alive maybe one additional round. I don't see this as a game breaking item.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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12k seems ok -- two reasons. 1) It helps keep the players alive. 2) Really, what good is an additional 13 hp going to do? It will keep them alive maybe one additional round. I don't see this as a game breaking item.
Maybe add the caveat that the item activates automatically in response to damage taken. Perhaps it activates on its own right after the first damage a character takes in a given day or maybe it activates whenever the character drops below 10 hp (or drops below 1 hp?).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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24 bonus HP, once used, item is destroyed, 1200 gp apparently based on shield other rather than false life, and this is from 3.0, so who knows what that means.
The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be perfect. Part of the efreet's backstory is that he lost most of his powers as a result of being captured and imprisoned (in a lamp of couse). I've been playing FFVI on the GBA and this reminded me of the esper storyling in that game. For those unfamiliar, magical creatures are drained of their power which is then transferred to magical machines or imbued into humans.
In the next adventure, as the party encounters these magic draining bandits, they will also be encountering the items created through this technology. One such item would be these amulets of false life, made by draining the hp of extraplanar creatures. The efreet will find the amulet made from his life force. Unlike the regular amulets, when this amulet is completely drained it can be refueled through re-absorbing some of the efreet's latent energy because of its bond to him.
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I'm not actually sure how a continuous False Life would work. You can't normally heal damage to temporary hit points, so how would you get them back?
N/day False Life, though would only average 8.5 HP per use, at a cost of 2160* GP/use/day, which doesn't seem too far out of line. (I'm assuming a caster level of three here.) That's fewer HPs than Cure Moderate Wounds in a per day item, which would average 12 HP per use.
(I'm pretty sure my original calculation used the wrong multiplier for a use per day item. Command Word is probably the better base for this use, which drops the price by 10%.)
Another option would be to model the item after the feat Improved Toughness, which offers an extra hit point for every hit die the character possesses. Now, an item giving +2 to your constitution is worth 4,000 gp, but it also modifies your concentration checks and fortitude saves (the latter of which is important to everyone) so you could reasonably price the item granting only hit points at 2.5k to 3k. If you wanted it to stack with the feat, but not with itself, the simplest way would be to state that it gives you an enhancement bonus to your hit points -- thus it would stack with constitution increasing items (which enhance your constitution, which in turn increases your hit points) but not with another instance of itself.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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First, a minor dogleg:
"They are relatively useless, far from optimized, and border on incompetent."
But are the players having fun? You could certainly say, "Your guys aren't optimized enough" and kill them, but why not match them against threats appropriate to their power levels?
Perhaps this is an old "AD&D" attitude. I dunno.
Second, on hit point items:
I'd like to second the idea of "shield another" being a better option than "false life". It could even be as simple as a set of items (perhaps rings, or amulets) that allow for a rear-line spellcaster to be a damage sink for the fighters, and I'd also throw in a minor side effect (maybe "message" between them once a day).
As way of background, in my current campaign, for whatever reason, my players have put together the most worthless pile of adventurers known to man. They are relatively useless, far from optimized, and border on incompetent. I nearly killed the campaign they sucked so much.(As a side note, one irony is that the party includes such alledgely broken classes as the warlock, the duskblade, and the scout.)
Just out of curiousity, what makes them so bad? Poor feat/spell choices? Multiclassing?
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I created rules for tonics some time back. Double the cost of potions, and require craft: potion and craft: wonderous to make them.
They can be consumed at any time, and then the magical effect can be utilized at any time up to an hour later as a free action.
A player can only benefit from 1 tonic at a time.
Rather expensive, but a tonic of cure serious wounds can save some butt.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I created rules for tonics some time back. Double the cost of potions, and require craft: potion and craft: wonderous to make them.
They can be consumed at any time, and then the magical effect can be utilized at any time up to an hour later as a free action.
A player can only benefit from 1 tonic at a time.
Rather expensive, but a tonic of cure serious wounds can save some butt.
There's a feat for this now called Delay Potion. I think it's in the Complete Adventurer. It does exactly what you just said, except it's a feat and not a special item. Just lets you drink a potion and 'store' it's benefit for up to an hour. I think you can only store one at a time though.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But are the players having fun? You could certainly say, "Your guys aren't optimized enough" and kill them, but why not match them against threats appropriate to their power levels?
I totally hadn't considered whether the players are having fun. I run D&D the way it's supposed to be played, as a strict simulationist game, and because of my narrow view of the game, I am entirely closed off to considering other play styles. Let's have a long drawn out discussion about the various play styles and what particular players enjoy. I have never seen such a thread on these or any other boards discussing the issue ad naseum. The topic is entirely novel and new to me.
And for Guennarr's sake, allow me to provide the following spoiler:
The above is sarcasm.
Edit: Sorry Chris, I know you mean well, but I've been around that bush before and am not interested in going around it again. Your point is generally well taken, but it's not a discussion I feel the need to have and not the discussion I sought on this thread.
Just out of curiousity, what makes them so bad? Poor feat/spell choices? Multiclassing?
It's a combination of ECL adjustments, lack of core classes, and a failure to create a party that hits the big 4 (tank, healer, thief, artillery). There's also a ton of overlap (3 characters can find and disable traps) and middling abilities (the duskblade is too weak to tank, too limited to be artillery). The non-core classes are also very light on tanks, though one player just switched from the warmage to the marshall, and that should help fill that gap. Now, if only I could get the duskblade player to switch to a favored soul (they currently have no healer), they'd probably be in decent shape.
Hm, those tidbits can be a problem for a young group of upstart adventurers. I can sympathize with the 'let the monsters have at the PCs, and assume that the replacement characters fill the gaps' attitude.
To solve at least a bit of the problem mentioned in your original post, I'd suggest using standardized HP (or one of the bajillion variations that folks have come up with), but I'm sure that you've already considered that option.
TS
Ignore the problem - play your game your way. They'll fix the parties problems when they roll up their replacement characters.
Just out of curiousity, what makes them so bad? Poor feat/spell choices? Multiclassing?It's a combination of ECL adjustments, lack of core classes, and a failure to create a party that hits the big 4 (tank, healer, thief, artillery). There's also a ton of overlap (3 characters can find and disable traps) and middling abilities (the duskblade is too weak to tank, too limited to be artillery). The non-core classes are also very light on tanks, though one player just switched from the warmage to the marshall, and that should help fill that gap. Now, if only I could get the duskblade player to switch to a favored soul (they currently have no healer), they'd probably be in decent shape.
A "band of thieves" type party? They should concentrate on scouting and hit-and-run tactics. I'm guessing that many of them have high Dex, so sniper tactics and an emphasis on ranged attacks can also help. The lack of a healer is troublesome, but if one of the characters has or takes a bard or ranger level they can use wands of cure light wounds. The two biggest problems with this type of party are 1) lack of staying power and 2) the high cost of consumable equipment (to cover the gaps).
I haven't seen anyone mention it, but you might want to check out the Amulet of Tears from the Magic Item Compendium. I believe it is page 70...
That might be a good base line "product" for hit point granting items.
(And for reference, the 3.0 item was a Vest of False Life in the Tome of Blood. It was an "always on" False Life that granted the wearer 10 "real" hit points while they wore the vest.)
A "band of thieves" type party? They should concentrate on scouting and hit-and-run tactics. I'm guessing that many of them have high Dex, so sniper tactics and an emphasis on ranged attacks can also help. The lack of a healer is troublesome, but if one of the characters has or takes a bard or ranger level they can use wands of cure light wounds. The two biggest problems with this type of party are 1) lack of staying power and 2) the high cost of consumable equipment (to cover the gaps).
These classes kind of clash in what they want to do. Warlock is great at range. Scout is phenominal at hitting and running (presuming that a few levels of fighter are taken and the leap attack feat (with power attack) is being used). However the Duskblade is kind of the fly in the ointment. This character feeds spells through his melee weapon. He needs to get up there and fight it out.
problem is if he does that he's all alone. Scout should be running away every second round and the Warlock should not be up close in the first place.
I think their best plan is to get out there and hustle up three more players - make them be a fighter a mage and a cleric. These three classes will absolutely shine when the core stuff is being taken care of. A duskblade is awesome as long as he has a mundane fighter to help him hold the line and give him time to get those potent spells up on his sword. Scout's great but he needs to have a party to hide behind so he can run back and forth charging every second round. Warlocks are spectacular mages - as long as their is a real mage around to do all that mundane magey stuff like teleport the party around and no party should leave home without a cleric.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think their best plan is to get out there and hustle up three more players - make them be a fighter a mage and a cleric. These three classes will absolutely shine when the core stuff is being taken care of. A duskblade is awesome as long as he has a mundane fighter to help him hold the line and give him time to get those potent spells up on his sword. Scout's great but he needs to have a party to hide behind so he can run back and forth charging every second round. Warlocks are spectacular mages - as long as their is a real mage around to do all that mundane magey stuff like teleport the party around and no party should leave home without a cleric.
Except that all core classes are banned. Like I said, this is partly my own fault. The players may only take the classes from the complete books, the minatures handbook, and some of the monster classes from savage species. The scout doesn't have the option of multi-classing into fighter. Part of the point of this campaign was to test all the whining and teeth gnashing about how superior the complete classes are over the core classes.
As for killing the characters off until they get the point, well, the assumption is that I've got rational players. I don't. I finally convinced the guy playing the tiefling duskblade to take a hit for the team and bring in a favored soul. What does he do? He comes back and asks if he can play a Derro (yes kids, that's right, a -5 ECL race for a pure caster). When I finally talk him out of that, he makes a devoutly good character in a party leaning towards evil who is a pacifist using a shield as a weapon. If I kill off that character, I'm sure he'll be back asking to play a pixie knight.
Except that all core classes are banned. Like I said, this is partly my own fault. The players may only take the classes from the complete books, the minatures handbook, and some of the monster classes from savage species. The scout doesn't have the option of multi-classing into fighter. Part of the point of this campaign was to test all the whining and teeth gnashing about how superior the complete classes are over the core classes.
They'd perform better with a 4th character in anycase really - but if you have to give up one of the four archetypes then I'd give up the rogue. That said I think the favoured soul is crap compared to a cleric - in fact all the alternitive clerics are crap compared to a cleric.
Wow... Just... wow.
Anyway, Sebastian, my suggestion for the HP Item is to let it grant 50 temp HP, but let it be continuous. The reason I suggest this is because a multiple uses per day item can effectively grant bonus HP up to 50 times the number of times per day it can be used. So, 3x/day? That's a potential of 150 HP, which a tank can easily achieve. A 'continuous' item would simply grant 50 HP per day, and renew at a certain time.. Like, say, in the morning or evening. This way, he gets a lasting benefit out of the item without sending the HP he gets through the roof.
Alternatively, you COULD go for an Item Set. The ring, certain other items, that when the efreet gets hold of them grants him some measure of his former power (or even a little boost over and above). Maybe each item beyond the first grants him additional HP/level, to the maximum he COULD have. IE, 2 items gives him +1 HP/level, 3 gives +3 HP/level, 4 gives +5 HP/level. And the best he could have is max +50 temporary HP.
Edit: If this was something of a test for the non-core classes, why'd you let them take races with ECL? Combining a race with a LA with a duskblade, for example, doesn't strike me as a very true test for your purposes.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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As for killing the characters off until they get the point, well, the assumption is that I've got rational players. I don't. I finally convinced the guy playing the tiefling duskblade to take a hit for the team and bring in a favored soul. What does he do? He comes back and asks if he can play a Derro (yes kids, that's right, a -5 ECL race for a pure caster). When I finally talk him out of that, he makes a devoutly good character in a party leaning towards evil who is a pacifist using a shield as a weapon. If I kill off that character, I'm sure he'll be back asking to play a pixie knight.
If nothing else, when you finally get frustrated enough to kill the PLAYER, this post will serve to rationalize your actions when you go to defend yourself in court at the murder trial. When pixie knights come into the fold, it's self-defense at that point.
I need to move to the West Coast and join your gaming group so that we can hang out after game and talk about how idiotic everyone else was being.
Well, if the game was an experiment (one that I considered running myself :)), why not just play it out and see what happens? Let em learn or die, DnD Darwinism at its finest. Or tweak your encounters to allow each party member to do what they do best. More traps and pits, vice big monsters. more stuck doors that need to be broken, vice skulls. Anyway, the False life items sound like they;d work. Keep us posted?
However the Duskblade is kind of the fly in the ointment. This character feeds spells through his melee weapon. He needs to get up there and fight it out.
problem is if he does that he's all alone. Scout should be running away every second round and the Warlock should not be up close in the first place.
The duskblade needs 1) a speed boosting item or spell for a retreat and 2) smart tactics. Get in, lay the smack down for a couple rounds, then get out. He doesn't have the staying power of a barbarian or a fighter, so he shouldn't push it. Even with the "-blade" in the name, he'd be better off as a spiked chain wielder with Improved Trip.
If you need a healer type, a dragon shaman makes a good cleric replacement.
Except that all core classes are banned. Like I said, this is partly my own fault. The players may only take the classes from the complete books, the minatures handbook, and some of the monster classes from savage species. The scout doesn't have the option of multi-classing into fighter. Part of the point of this campaign was to test all the whining and teeth gnashing about how superior the complete classes are over the core classes.
Maybe you need to reiterate to the players that this campaign was supposed to be (partially) an experiment, to playtest the non-core classes? Perhaps you'd be better off limiting the races to core.
The duskblade needs 1) a speed boosting item or spell for a retreat and 2) smart tactics. Get in, lay the smack down for a couple rounds, then get out. He doesn't have the staying power of a barbarian or a fighter, so he shouldn't push it. Even with the "-blade" in the name, he'd be better off as a spiked chain wielder with Improved Trip.
The duskblade CAN do the job, but, admittedly, he will get chewed upon doing it. A couple of months ago, in the Eberron section of the wizards site, they had a series called Clockwork Wonders and a item called gliding boots. Similar to boots of springing and striding, they allowed you to make a 10' adjustment without drawing an AOO, instead of a 5' one.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Despite the difficulty you seem to be having with this game, Sebastian, I have decided to run a 'non-core only' game myself now. I kind of wonder what madness my players will come up with. I'll wait until my copy of the Complete Champion arrives in a couple weeks before I get started though. I want there to be as many options as possible (especially since I'm hoping there will be other alternatives to clerics in there so that favored soul is not the ONLY option).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I didn't say it was a scientific experiment. Plus, all the ECL races are non-core (though I did not ban the core races).
FS - I also wish you lived on the West Coast. And I'm glad to hear your doing the non-core thing too. Hopefully your players will give it a better run than mine.
The duskblade needs 1) a speed boosting item or spell for a retreat and 2) smart tactics. Get in, lay the smack down for a couple rounds, then get out. He doesn't have the staying power of a barbarian or a fighter, so he shouldn't push it. Even with the "-blade" in the name, he'd be better off as a spiked chain wielder with Improved Trip.If you need a healer type, a dragon shaman makes a good cleric replacement.
Sounds difficult to pull off to me. Pulling back means giving up on any spells currently running on your weapon and, more difficult IMO, it means using move actions just to try and break contact. Duskblades don't have tumble and are hard up for skill points in any case. Getting out of a combat that is going bad seems difficult. The scout can move in and out of combat because its speed is phenomenal and tumble should be ungodly pretty quickly and it will be able to do a skirmish attack on the way out. Duskblades don't really have these kinds of advantages. Moving around seems like using valuable actions that don't actually contribute to victory. It also means using another move action to get back into combat presuming that is the idea eventually. My experience is the more actions the players are forced to take that don't contribute to winning the fight the worse their situation is likely to be.
This is a rather strange thread.
I'm sure part of your players' problems Sebastion is the structure of your campaign. You obviously don't allow standardized hit points (if your efreet is rolling 2's and keeping them) so no wonder your players hit points suck. This may be valid at times, but if you run "any" published adventures then you know that all the designers use average hit points for their monsters and NPCs. Allowing the PCs average hit points per level would probably solve your problem without having to rely on magic items.
I wonder with a somewhat bemused expression why DMs run games where all the core classes are banned. Since I'm about my players having fun I try too accommodate as many of the rules and options of the game as possible. When you ban a class like the cleric you are asking for trouble, unless you force players to take classes like the healer, favored soul, or spirit shaman (which are all not as good as the cleric when you get down to it). I just wonder whether you use the same rules regarding core classes with your NPCs?
The duskblade, warlock, and scout all have their place (and the scout is better than the rogue), but when PCs are forced to choose these classes because they don't have access to the core classes, they often make poor decisions. Some players like the simplicity of being able to open the PHB and find the class they need. It's like how some DMs can't use non-WotC material because they have been conditioned to think it is crap.
As for the lack of a tank in your group. Unless you have access to The Book of Nine Swords the only really tank non-core class is the knight. Hexblades, duskblades, and swashbucklers are all lightly armored fighters, while the samurai sucks for what it is. Nothing beats the barbarian or paladin as a tank, and while the fighter has been described as a weak class, its simplicity also makes it easy to play as a tank.
You can run your games how you like and your players may love you for it. I'm also not trying to cast dispersions against your character or say that you are a bad DM (you might be a great DM). I just can't help thinking that some of the problems in your game might be your fault.
Okay, hit me with it.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm sure part of your players' problems Sebastion is the structure of your campaign. You obviously don't allow standardized hit points (if your efreet is rolling 2's and keeping them) so no wonder your players hit points suck. This may be valid at times, but if you run "any" published adventures then you know that all the designers use average hit points for their monsters and NPCs. Allowing the PCs average hit points per level would probably solve your problem without having to rely on magic items.
As with all my campaigns, I submitted various house rules for the players to consider and adopt, including how to determine hit points. They were offered static hit points and rejected it. They were offered rerolls on 1's and rejected it. They took by the book hit points.
The same process was used to determine that this would be a non-core game.
I wonder with a somewhat bemused expression why DMs run games where all the core classes are banned. Since I'm about my players having fun I try too accommodate as many of the rules and options of the game as possible. When you ban a class like the cleric you are asking for trouble, unless you force players to take classes like the healer, favored soul, or spirit shaman (which are all not as good as the cleric when you get down to it). I just wonder whether you use the same rules regarding core classes with your NPCs?
In fact, I do.
And, as I said in my posts already, the problems I am having are partly my fault due to the structure of the campaign.
Sounds difficult to pull off to me. Pulling back means giving up on any spells currently running on your weapon and, more difficult IMO, it means using move actions just to try and break contact. Duskblades don't have tumble and are hard up for skill points in any case. Getting out of a combat that is going bad seems difficult.
The duskblade needs 1) a speed boosting item or spell for a retreat and 2) smart tactics. Get in, lay the smack down for a couple rounds, then get out. He doesn't have the staying power of a barbarian or a fighter, so he shouldn't push it. Even with the "-blade" in the name, he'd be better off as a spiked chain wielder with Improved Trip.If you need a healer type, a dragon shaman makes a good cleric replacement.
Just use the Withdraw action. This is where smart tactics also plays a role: always make sure you have a clear path for a retreat. The other characters can (and should) help by preventing your enemies from flanking you or boxing you in. Withdraw, take a round or two to drink healing potions and/or cast spells, and then possibly get back in melee. Hit-and-run tactics require more than just "charge, then keep swinging until you or the enemy drops."
If you need a healer type, a dragon shaman makes a good cleric replacement.
A goliath dragon shaman, to be precise...
Just use the Withdraw action. This is where smart tactics also plays a role: always make sure you have a clear path for a retreat. The other characters can (and should) help by preventing your enemies from flanking you or boxing you in. Withdraw, take a round or two to drink healing potions and/or cast spells, and then possibly get back in melee. Hit-and-run tactics require more than just "charge, then keep swinging until you or the enemy drops."
I don't really see how a withdraw action changes the fundemental issue I have with this. Once one is in combat I'd say actions are essentially the currency of play. Here your using actions to break contact. Further this party has no healers and the duskblades schtick is to buff itself and tear the enemy apart. A hit and run style of combat seems to work at cross purposes with these two ideas. Your leaving the enemy to get X number of rounds for their regeneration to work, for enemy healers put their guys back together or just for the bad huys to drink all the potions of healing (that your side really needs since they have no healer) that they have on them.
When I consider a party of a Warlock, Scout and Duskblade I tend to think of a party who's best option is to take the fight to the enemy hard and fast. Scout can move right through the enemy ranks and go straight for the leader types. Duskblad throws up the buffs (hopefully prior to combat - scout should help with that by scouting) and lays into the bad guys - hopefully also taking the fight to the leader types but maybe just taking down the mooks fast. Warlock supports all this - probably by targeting the leader types. Retreat can be neccisary but I'd think that it would be something to be avoided most of the time and not embraced since far too often the enemy gains more by a delay in the battle then the party does with this line up.
Just use the Withdraw action. This is where smart tactics also plays a role: always make sure you have a clear path for a retreat. The other characters can (and should) help by preventing your enemies from flanking you or boxing you in. Withdraw, take a round or two to drink healing potions and/or cast spells, and then possibly get back in melee. Hit-and-run tactics require more than just "charge, then keep swinging until you or the enemy drops."I don't really see how a withdraw action changes the fundemental issue I have with this. Once one is in combat I'd say actions are essentially the currency of play. Here your using actions to break contact. Further this party has no healers and the duskblades schtick is to buff itself and tear the enemy apart. A hit and run style of combat seems to work at cross purposes with these two ideas. Your leaving the enemy to get X number of rounds for their regeneration to work, for enemy healers put their guys back together or just for the bad huys to drink all the potions of healing (that your side really needs since they have no healer) that they have on them.
When I consider a party of a Warlock, Scout and Duskblade I tend to think of a party who's best option is to take the fight to the enemy hard and fast. Scout can move right through the enemy ranks and go straight for the leader types. Duskblad throws up the buffs (hopefully prior to combat - scout should help with that by scouting) and lays into the bad guys - hopefully also taking the fight to the leader types but maybe just taking down the mooks fast. Warlock supports all this - probably by targeting the leader types. Retreat can be neccisary but I'd think that it would be something to be avoided most of the time and not embraced since far too often the enemy gains more by a delay in the battle then the party does with this line up.
If the party can take out the opposition quickly, that's the best option. However, in a longer fight, the duskblade will probably need to break off melee to heal/re-buff, since there is no one else who can do that for him and he will probably be the one spending most of the time in melee range of the enemy. In the rounds that the duskblade is withdrawing/healing/casting, the scout and the warlock can continue to skirmish and blast the enemy to keep them busy. The "fundamental issue" is the party lacks a healer, so the party's tactics have to reflect that limitation.
If the party can take out the opposition quickly, that's the best option. However, in a longer fight, the duskblade will probably need to break off melee to heal/re-buff, since there is no one else who can do that for him and he will probably be the one spending most of the time in melee range of the enemy. In the rounds that the duskblade is withdrawing/healing/casting, the scout and the warlock can continue to skirmish and blast the enemy to keep them busy. The "fundamental issue" is the party lacks a healer, so the party's tactics have to reflect that limitation.
OK at this point I don't think we are really saying anything different any more. The enemy should be taken down as fast as possible but the party must consider the fact that their front line combatants have a serous healing and AC shortage and will be forced to spend some actions some of the time just to keep going and should have tactics meant to deal with being able to take those kinds of actions without the opposition being able to turn them into a meat paste while getting some healing or casting some buff spells. Beyond that sometimes you just have to run away and all parties really should address how they plan to do that effectively, however this party might find themselves resorting to this a little more often then usual.