(I've posted it before, but I think the boards took it!)
The sorcerer always seemed to me underpowered in comparison to the wizard. So I was tinkering with the idea to make them equal by giving him bonus feats, too.
The wizard receives Scribe Scroll on first level and another one on 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery.
I thought about granting the sorcerer either a Bloodline-feat as described in the Dragon Compendium Vol. 1 or the corresponding magazines. Later on he would gain a bonus feat on 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat or another Bloodline-feat.
For example a sorcerer with dragon blood in his veins would get Draconic Bloodline on 1st, Draconic Sight on 5th, Power in the Blood on 10th and Quicken Spell on 15th, Kin Mastery on 20th level.
Of course the same could be done with the Heritage-feats from Wizards of the Coast, but of late I don't like to touch those books.
What do you say, would this make the class overpowered?
I think it would, to be honest. The sorcerer never really struck me as underpowered just because of the number of spells per day they can use, despite their limited focus and the fact that they're a spell level behind on progression as compared to a wizard. I think adding bonus feats would just make the wizard seem even worse, since one of the draws for that class is the bonus feats.
I tend to agree with mr. Keegan on this point. Neither to me nor to my players has the sorcerer appeared to be underpowered. Some of them feel the wizard to be so, but none that I'm aware of would say the same about the sorcerer.
Spontaneous casting and a ton of it are substantial advantages by themselves.
I would still play the wizard for the great spell selection, the faster spell progression and the Item Creation feats. Especially since the introduction of Reserve-feats the advantage of more spells per day shrinks.
Yeah, Aureus, I would play one as well. In fact, they might still be my favorite class. But, many don't feel the same way.
Also, I'm not a huge fan of reserve feats, though I am considering allowing them on a limited basis.
(I've posted it before, but I think the boards took it!)
The sorcerer always seemed to me underpowered in comparison to the wizard. So I was tinkering with the idea to make them equal by giving him bonus feats, too.
The wizard receives Scribe Scroll on first level and another one on 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery.
I thought about granting the sorcerer either a Bloodline-feat as described in the Dragon Compendium Vol. 1 or the corresponding magazines. Later on he would gain a bonus feat on 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat or another Bloodline-feat.
For example a sorcerer with dragon blood in his veins would get Draconic Bloodline on 1st, Draconic Sight on 5th, Power in the Blood on 10th and Quicken Spell on 15th, Kin Mastery on 20th level.
Of course the same could be done with the Heritage-feats from Wizards of the Coast, but of late I don't like to touch those books.
What do you say, would this make the class overpowered?
I tend to think that all most all the spell clasting Classes are a little underpowered when compared to a Fighter, with all thier bonus feats. The whole idea behind Feats are that that is a way to customize your character but there is no love for the casters.
If seems like every time I run the party wants to rest after the second fight cuse the spell casters are out of spells. I like Reserve feats for that fact (A Wiazard is a spell casting Commoner as it stands now) I Gave them both Ronus Reserve Feats at 4,12, and 16th level, So the Wizard could still take other meta magic or Item Creation Feats.
The Levels that the Wizard for these I game the Sorcerer Heritage/bloodline feats.
I love to play a sorcerer. Yes, you have a limited selection of spells known, but this is what wands and scrolls are for. And in all the time I've played I have never, I mean ever, run out of spells for the day. Even with multiple encounters/ day.
Especially when you take the alternate class feature to replace the (useless) familiar with the ability to use metamagic feats, there is nothing underpowered about the sorcerer.
As for the fighter being more powerful in feats and hp, (smiles wickedly) How many fireballs do you think he can take? Not enough, in my experience.
This place cracks me up. I bet (scratch that I know) that with 10 minutes of time and the search feature I can find posts contending that the wizard is too weak compared too the sorcerer, the sorcerer is too weak compared to the wizard and the fighter is too weak compared to the wizard.
Sorcerers have some significant advantages on the wizard and some notable weak points in comparison. I see no reason to think that one is obviously better then the other. The very fact that there are a significant number of people that sincerely feel that the wizard is far weaker then the sorcerer (see the fixing the wizard thread) makes me strongly hesitate in upgrading the sorcerer for any perceived weakness compared to the wizard. I'd leave their feats as is and consider scribe scroll as one of the wizards advantages over the sorcerer. The sorcerers spells per day (about 50% more then the wizard) make up for not being able to cheaply scribe scrolls.
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In our AoW campaign our DM (Hagen on these boards) implemented the following changes to sorcerers:
Sorcerers
The sorcerer class has been changed in the following ways:
- Sorcerers gain 4 skill points per level instead of 2.
- The following skills are also considered class skills: Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, & Move Silently.
- Sorcerers gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at level 1.
- Sorcerers gain a bonus feat at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, & 20. This feat must be a heritage or metamagic feat.
- Sorcerers no longer receive the Summon Familiar ability.
I dont think it over powers the class, though as mentioned before it does make the wizard class pale slightly in comparison, but not overly in my opinon.It also fixes some of the wierdness about sorerers, like why do they get fmailiars and need spell components if their a natural born spellcaster?
I don't think the sorcerer is underpowered. I think their delayed spell levels are silly, because it is merely an annoyance, not a true drawback. So personally, I'd rather fix the sorcerer's spell progression rather than give them bonus feats.
Creative Director
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Personally, I think the sorcerer is about right. In play, you really don't end up casting a super wide variety of spells anyway, even if you're a wizard. And if you do need those extra spells... with a little planning, you can have scrolls or wands handy.
But compared to wizards, sorcerers win. The only advantage a wizard has is the fact that he can, in theory, know more spells than the sorcerer. But the sorcerer can CAST more spells in a day. And unlike the sorcerer, the wizard has to spend time, money, and in some cases XP in order to be a wizard (since his bonus feats are half item creation feats). If you play in a campaign setting, the wizard is actually the least powerful class, since while every other class ends up spending their resources between adventures further customizing and gaining power (by buying magic items, for example, or by being able to turn right around and go on a new adventure without any class-enforced down-time), the wizard has to stay at home and spend money and time to do what it is he's supposed to do, and while he's doing that... he can't spend that money on gear or go on adventures.
Wizards, it strikes me, make a MUCH better NPC class than a PC class.
The sorcerer's fine as she is. Although she could use d6 sided Hit Dice, that's for sure.
Hmm...I've played a wizard for a very long time, have always loved it. I rolled up a sorcerer not too long ago and actually found the class very constricted, to me, the amount of spells I could cast in a day did not replace the versatiliy I had as a wizard, so, I conned our DM into allowing me to have a dragon heritage. Not the bloodlines out of the book, just a few tweaks, for example, I chose gold dragon, and right now, I am allowed luck once per day.
The sorcerer's fine as she is. Although she could use d6 sided Hit Dice, that's for sure.
James is right.
Yesterday we played again and I've got two arcane casters in my party. One is a necromancer the other one is a sorcerer.
For the first time ever I encountered the difficulties of downtime.
The necromancer wanted to create a scroll so he stayed in his room. The other three went shopping and had an encounter with a rampaging troll.
So the sorcerer got some XP, the necromancer didn't but he got a scroll.
So next session there will be copious amounts of downtime prior to the start of the adventure, I don't want to shaft the necromancer out of his scrolls and XP.
I was starting this thread because the reaction of my players finally cinvinced me to stop the STAP and start the RotRAP. At the moment we are collecting ideas for characters. One player wants to run a gnome illusionist, another one a halfling rogue/sorcerer.
As we speak of "downtime", will there be enough to satisfy the item crafting gnome and not give him a disadvantage in comparison to the sorcerer?
As Mr. Jacobs gave a clear answer, I am convinced that the sorcerer is good as she is. But what about the d6 hit die? Perhaps the edge the class needs...
BTW: Next to these two characters there will be an elf fighter (spiked chain wielder), a dwarven cleric (he doesn't like the six gods from the blog!?!) and a dwarven ranger (giant slayer).
If you give the sorcerer a d6 HD, it'd sure look to me like a slap in the wizard's face to not give the same to him.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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I don't know, years of RPGA gaming have convinced me that sorcerers really lack compared to wizards. The inability to customize your spell list without spending gold really handicaps a sorcerer, and the bonus feats do start to add up. A sorcerer doesn't get many more spells per day that a specialist wizard, so I'm not sure why that gets cited as a benefit so often (especially since a sorcerer is half a level behind, and lacks flexibity in their highest level).
The "enforced downtime" is an attribute of anyone who wants to craft, not just wizards. Wizards aren't forced to craft any more than any other class. There is a downtime element if you want to expand the spellbook, though even without expanding the spellbook, a wizard has slightly more spells known than a sorcerer.
In my own games, I give sorcerers one more spell known per level, but then I let wizard scribe a spell per day in their spellbook on any day in which they have 8 hours free (which usually excludes overland travel days, but includes most adventuring days).
I don't know, years of RPGA gaming have convinced me that sorcerers really lack compared to wizards. The inability to customize your spell list without spending gold really handicaps a sorcerer, and the bonus feats do start to add up. A sorcerer doesn't get many more spells per day that a specialist wizard, so I'm not sure why that gets cited as a benefit so often (especially since a sorcerer is half a level behind, and lacks flexibity in their highest level).
The "enforced downtime" is an attribute of anyone who wants to craft, not just wizards. Wizards aren't forced to craft any more than any other class. There is a downtime element if you want to expand the spellbook, though even without expanding the spellbook, a wizard has slightly more spells known than a sorcerer.
In my own games, I give sorcerers one more spell known per level, but then I let wizard scribe a spell per day in their spellbook on any day in which they have 8 hours free (which usually excludes overland travel days, but includes most adventuring days).
Sorcerer will still get a significant number of spells per day comapred to a specialist wizard and in this case the wizard has cut himself off from two schools of magic and all wands, scrolls etc. from those schools of magic which a comparable sorcerer has not. The wizard essentially has choosen more spells per day for less versitility. I think their roughly on par in power level (wizards vs. specialist wizards) and thus are roughly on par with sorcerers. My feeling is that their are no bad schools of magic - cutting oneself off from any of them is a bit of price to pay. However I suspect that specialist wizards do better early on. Its not until you have attained a certian level of power that you begin to really miss access to schools of magic. When you just lost half a dozen 1st level spells its not a big deal, when you realize that 25% of the wizard spell list is not open to you - well thats a bigger deal.
Not to be a thread highjacker,but James (or anyone else)what would you suggest to make the wizard a better class?
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Not to be a thread highjacker,but James (or anyone else)what would you suggest to make the wizard a better class?Improving the Wizard
Thanks!
Sorcerers aren't underpowered compared to wizards. Personally, I happen to like wizards better, but others have different preferences. Sorcerers have one huge advantage over wizards: spontaneous casting. They pay for it with a fixed spell selection and lack of bonus feats.
If you want to introduce bonus feats to sorcerers in your campaign, I'd recommend that you limit them to Bloodline (or Heritage) feats. This keeps sorcerers distinct from wizards and plays up their innate magical nature.
Sorcerers aren't underpowered compared to wizards. Personally, I happen to like wizards better, but others have different preferences. Sorcerers have one huge advantage over wizards: spontaneous casting. They pay for it with a fixed spell selection and lack of bonus feats.
I have the same attitude, I like wizards better but think sorcerers are more powerful of the two (that said, I rarely play characters of high level where I guess the situation is different).
SavageScreenMonkey had some nice suggestions, I would for example consider giving sorcerers Eschew Materials feat free, and maybe those extra skill points (then again, I would give most classes extra skill points) while taking away that Summon familiar, as said those traits don't quite make sense for a natural-born spellcaster.
I might also consider extra metamagic feats, but not item creation ones and not as quick progression as for wizards. Levels 6, 13, 20?
One class that is better than both the wizard or sorcerer is the truenamer!
Truename magic rules K.O.!!!!
Warmage 101
I thought about granting the sorcerer either a Bloodline-feat as described in the Dragon Compendium Vol. 1 or the corresponding magazines. Later on he would gain a bonus feat on 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat or another Bloodline-feat.For example a sorcerer with dragon blood in his veins would get Draconic Bloodline on 1st, Draconic Sight on 5th, Power in the Blood on 10th and Quicken Spell on 15th, Kin Mastery on 20th level.
Where can you find the bloodline feats? What books would have them?
JnW
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We hashed out a lot on the wizard's thread, and came up with something to make wizards less crud-encrusted. You can see my posts there on that matter.
Here is a copy of my relavent notes on sorcerors:
Sadly, this would leave a sorceror a bit weak by comparrison, so we were thinking of granting a bonus heritage feat at level 1, and granting them the ability to use multiple spells to fuel metamagic. That is, using a level 1 spell with a +1 meta magic effect could be one level 2 spell, or two level 1, or one level 1 and 2 level 0.
Please note, I don't think there is anything wrong with the sorceror or the wizard as is, but since we did beef up the wizard, the sorceror needed something.
I thought about granting the sorcerer either a Bloodline-feat as described in the Dragon Compendium Vol. 1 or the corresponding magazinesWhere can you find the bloodline feats? What books would have them?
JnW
Aureus stated it in his post - I bolded it for you.
the game is about having power balanced between the various players, right? the fighter lives by his/her muscles and the various athletic/combat feats available to him/her, the rogue survives through her/his wits and thus needs a lot of skill points to acquire high levels in various skills, the cleric achieves victory through force of will and the power of the deity, while the wizard bends reality to her/his will through pure strength of mind (intelligence) or through pure strength of personality (charisma)
I am happy that 3rd edition (and 3.5 edition) permits almost anyone to multiclass because I think this option permits players a full range of options with which to customize their characters: whenever I create a new character, I usually think about the primary class for the character as well as at least one secondary class for the character. In the case of a sorcerer, I will either consider a rogue or a cleric for the other class. That is, I will start as a rogue or a cleric, advance a couple of levels in that class and then, suddenly, 'discover' my sorcerous powers. In this manner, the multiclassed sorcerer gains extra abilities to enhance survival.
I am very tempted to do a sorcerer / favored soul / mystic theurge combo.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Besides the wizard, I can't think of another core class that actually PREPARES Arcane spells. Everything else is a spontaneous caster. What gives?!?
Preparing spells sucks. Yeah, yeah, it's a challenge and older resource management players like it, but at the table, it's generally a burden that adds little to the way the game plays. I will not be shocked if it does not find its way into 4e.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Besides the wizard, I can't think of another core class that actually PREPARES Arcane spells. Everything else is a spontaneous caster. What gives?!?Preparing spells sucks. Yeah, yeah, it's a challenge and older resource management players like it, but at the table, it's generally a burden that adds little to the way the game plays. I will not be shocked if it does not find its way into 4e.
It's not that big a deal. Do what I do: In your spare time, come up with a small number of spell suites that suit different scenarios. I usually write up an Urban List, a Wilderness List, a Big Fight list, and a Sneak list. New lists get made as the plot demands (such as an Underdark list, a Planar Travel list, etc.). It only takes 5-10 minutes to throw a list together and, if you do it outside of game (which you SHOULD unless you really want to be hated), it doesn't slow the game down a bit.
I, for one, will be LIVID if they remove the ability to prepare spells or if they simply make a caster class that functions like a sorcerer but has EVERY SPELL IN CREATION on their 'spells known' list.
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The trick is getting rules that are fun to play and balanced, for the widest group of people possible. It ain't easy.
I have no desire to see the classical wizard go away, and as I said elsewhere, I don't see a problem with either wizard or sorceror mechanically. Problem is at low level, especially when depending on mage armor for defense, wizards run out of spells nigh instantly, which brings wizard fun to a screeching halt.
Spell prep isn't terrible, a bit awkward at times, but not as terrible as some make it out to be. I sure don't hope it goes away, ever.
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And I think i neglected to mention earlier, one of my changes to all casters would be bonuse 0th level spells = to (casting stat) bonus. Benefits sorcerors as much as wizards (clerics or druids too).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I, for one, will be LIVID if they remove the ability to prepare spells or if they simply make a caster class that functions like a sorcerer but has EVERY SPELL IN CREATION on their 'spells known' list.
Sorry, I should clarify (not that my opinion is relevant to what will actually be in 4e, but still). I would expect to see a system where you prepare spells but then have the flexibility to cast any of your prepared spells. That way, you don't have to fill slots with multiple magic missiles. You just prepare magic missile once and you can cast it as many times per day as you have 1st level spells.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Sorry, I should clarify (not that my opinion is relevant to what will actually be in 4e, but still). I would expect to see a system where you prepare spells but then have the flexibility to cast any of your prepared spells. That way, you don't have to fill slots with multiple magic missiles. You just prepare magic missile once and you can cast it as many times per day as you have 1st level spells.
I, for one, will be LIVID if they remove the ability to prepare spells or if they simply make a caster class that functions like a sorcerer but has EVERY SPELL IN CREATION on their 'spells known' list.
That might not be so bad. I wouldn't take issue with that. Don't deny me my spell-choosing strategy though, damn it! That's half the fun of playing a wizard!
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Sorry, I should clarify (not that my opinion is relevant to what will actually be in 4e, but still). I would expect to see a system where you prepare spells but then have the flexibility to cast any of your prepared spells. That way, you don't have to fill slots with multiple magic missiles. You just prepare magic missile once and you can cast it as many times per day as you have 1st level spells.
I, for one, will be LIVID if they remove the ability to prepare spells or if they simply make a caster class that functions like a sorcerer but has EVERY SPELL IN CREATION on their 'spells known' list.
A Int based sorcer that gets to repick spells every day... meh
I would prefer a better mechanic for using the spell book in play, either sac'ing prepared spells, or maybe taking damagae based on spell level
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That might not be so bad. I wouldn't take issue with that. Don't deny me my spell-choosing strategy though, damn it! That's half the fun of playing a wizard!
I use it as a house rule in my campaign. Speeds up the prepared casters and lets them go a little longer between rest stops.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I use it as a house rule in my campaign. Speeds up the prepared casters and lets them go a little longer between rest stops.
That might not be so bad. I wouldn't take issue with that. Don't deny me my spell-choosing strategy though, damn it! That's half the fun of playing a wizard!
Doesn't this kind of make sorcerers completely useless, though? I mean, a wizard's number of spells per day is going to exceed a sorcerer's spells known at just about any given level. The only advantage a sorcerer has under this rule is a few additional spells per day, but at the cost of being condemned to a vastly more restrictive spell selection.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Doesn't this kind of make sorcerers completely useless, though? I mean, a wizard's number of spells per day is going to exceed a sorcerer's spells known at just about any given level. The only advantage a sorcerer has under this rule is a few additional spells per day, but at the cost of being condemned to a vastly more restrictive spell selection.
I let sorcerers use the UA spellpoint system. That being said, I don't really care if sorcerers are made obsolete. They're not distinct enough from wizards under the core rules to be a separate class. I've always seen them as a platform for testing spont casting that was slipped into 3e rather than a fully fleshed out character class.
I am very tempted to do a sorcerer / favored soul / mystic theurge combo.
I have totally been thinking about doing that too. A raw caster of both types of magic without memorization.
Sorry, I should clarify (not that my opinion is relevant to what will actually be in 4e, but still). I would expect to see a system where you prepare spells but then have the flexibility to cast any of your prepared spells. That way, you don't have to fill slots with multiple magic missiles. You just prepare magic missile once and you can cast it as many times per day as you have 1st level spells.
Isn't that what a Spirit Shaman from the Complete Divine does? I'm not sure I have heard anyone say that they are overpowered.
Besides the wizard, I can't think of another core class that actually PREPARES Arcane spells. Everything else is a spontaneous caster. What gives?!?Preparing spells sucks. Yeah, yeah, it's a challenge and older resource management players like it, but at the table, it's generally a burden that adds little to the way the game plays. I will not be shocked if it does not find its way into 4e.
I'd be shocked.
There are a whole sub-set of players who consider this to be one of the best parts of the game. Its not really my thing but why alienate players for very little gain. It would be terrible design choice.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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There are a whole sub-set of players who consider this to be one of the best parts of the game. Its not really my thing but why alienate players for very little gain. It would be terrible design choice.
And there were a whole sub-set of players that probably liked the percentile system for thieves in 2e and would have preferred that over skill points. I would hazard that you significantly underestimate the gain. For every grizzled number crunching veteran that prefers the classic wizard, there are a half dozen players who won't touch the class with a 10' pole due to its complexity. I don't think it will vanish entirely, as I indicated above, but I have little doubt it will not carry forward in its present form.
I have totally been thinking about doing that too. A raw caster of both types of magic without memorization.
I am very tempted to do a sorcerer / favored soul / mystic theurge combo.
Done it. Powerful. My sure to choose metamagic feats that be assigned to both of your classes spell list though or use the alter class abilities in the PH2 for the sorcerer if you don't want to take a full round to cast your spells. Also remember that the Favored Soul is one of those whacky classes that has two key abilities that spells are based on. I think they're Cha and Wis.
If you can get your spell list to included offensive and then cure spell you're like a howizter with an EMT attached. The problem becomes that you have to make the choice of nuking the group of enemies that is in sight or healing the secondary fighter because the primary is down. Choice choices....
Sorcerers have one huge advantage over wizards: spontaneous casting. They pay for it with a fixed spell selection and lack of bonus feats.
I don't understand how spontaneous casting is any better than preping spells in the morning. Yes, a DM could be a terrible person (lol) and throw a big encounter at the PCs right in the morning instead of coffee to wake them up. But how often does that happen??
A disadvantage I see with a sorcerer is that they have to have longer casting times to cast a metamagic spell (personally I don't like metamagic spells because the longer casting time of the sorcerer and the higher level of the wizard always dissuade me...).
To state my position: I would rather play a wizard.
In any case, I don't see the big advantage.
Truename magic rules K.O.!!!!
HOLY GOD YES!
I've been looking through the Tome of Magic and yea they do pwn both wiz and sorc...
I don't understand how spontaneous casting is any better than preping spells in the morning.
Really? It's quite simple. When you prepare spells, you have to guess which spells you're going to need to cast that day. When you can cast spontaneously, you can wait until you know for certain before committing that spell slot.
Spontaneous casting is a huge advantage. Huge. And as Dragonchess Player notes, sorcerers pay for it with their limited spell selection and lack of bonus feats.
I don't understand how spontaneous casting is any better than preping spells in the morning.
Really? It's quite simple. When you prepare spells, you have to guess which spells you're going to need to cast that day. When you can cast spontaneously, you can wait until you know for certain before committing that spell slot.
Spontaneous casting is a huge advantage. Huge. And as Dragonchess Player notes, sorcerers pay for it with their limited spell selection and lack of bonus feats.
Touuuucheeeeeee.....