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I have read and re-read the Find the Path spell and there is something that is confusing me. The spell text is:
The recipient of this spell can find the shortest, most direct physical route to a specified destination, be it the way into or out of a locale. The locale can be outdoors, underground, or even inside a maze spell. Find the path works with respect to locations, not objects or creatures at a locale. The location must be on the same plane as you are at the time of casting.
The spell enables the subject to sense the correct direction that will eventually lead it to its destination, indicating at appropriate times the exact path to follow or physical actions to take. For example, the spell enables the subject to sense trip wires or the proper word to bypass a glyph of warding. The spell ends when the destination is reached or the duration expires, whichever comes first. Find the path can be used to remove the subject and its companions from the effect of a maze spell in a single round.
This divination is keyed to the recipient, not its companions, and its effect does not predict or allow for the actions of creatures (including guardians).
My players were discussing buying a scroll or two of this spell and I wanted to be sure I knew how best to handle it if they decided to go ahead with it. What exactly is a "specified destination"? How much must the caster know about the destination before the spell works? How does he specify a location he has never seen?
For example, in a previous session, my party encountered a white dragon, which they fought outside. Grievously wounded, the dragon escaped and the party had no means to follow it as it flew away. One of the party members has suggested they could buy a scroll of Find the Path, return to the spot where they encountered the dragon and then locate its lair via the spell. Is it acceptable to use the spell to "Find a dragon's lair"? My initial thought it that it is not possible to do this, since the "lair" is not a physical place, it is how a specific place is used. Instead they would have to know that the white dragon lived "in an ice cave on the glacier wall" and then find this place via the spell, with the potential downside (if I wanted to be a pain, which I won't be - probably :> ) of finding the nearest ice cave on the glacier wall which may not house the dragon at all. Is this the proper way to interpret the spell, or am I being too restrictive? If I am not being overly restrictive, then what is the purpose of this spell? Is it to act as an infinite-range Locate Object spell except that it finds only general locations, not objects?
And as a hypothetical example, suppose the party is fighting Vecna cultists and they believe that there is an evil temple hidden ahead where the cult leader lies in wait. They use Find the Path and try to locate ... what? A "temple"? A "temple to Vecna?" A "room with an alter" (hoping that the temple contains such a thing)? Since the spell does not find objects, is it reasonable to describe a place in terms of the objects it contains? If it cannot find "a dragon's lair" then it probably cannot find a temple, since a temple is a purpose for a place, not a place. Arrrgh!
I want the group to get use out of the spell, and it is 6th level magic, but I also do not want it to be a carte blanche adventure ending spell either, especially at lower levels. All input is appreciated.
Is it acceptable to use the spell to "Find a dragon's lair"? My initial thought it that it is not possible to do this, since the "lair" is not a physical place, it is how a specific place is used.
That's overly restrictive. Consider: by that logic, your house isn't a specific place, but rather the way a specific place is used. Now, can you give directions to your house?
And as a hypothetical example, suppose the party is fighting Vecna cultists and they believe that there is an evil temple hidden ahead where the cult leader lies in wait.
Conversely, this is too lax. The description of the place has to be un-ambiguous, and has to actually exist. So, asking for directions to "a temple" won't work, since it never specifies which temple, and asking for a temple to the specific god suffers from the same problem. Asking for the temple where those cultists is based might work... provided the PCs actually know it exists and aren't just guessing.
I want the group to get use out of the spell, and it is 6th level magic, but I also do not want it to be a carte blanche adventure ending spell either, especially at lower levels. All input is appreciated.
I can't help but think that the game would be better without the Find the Path spell. However, since it exists I suppose we have to deal with it. My best advice is to use the 'ask for directions' rule, where the spell works provided the PCs specify the location sufficiently well that a passing celestial could hypothetically give directions. But it doesn't work on guesses, it doesn't handle ambiguous destinations, and it always gives the shortest (not necessarily quickest, safest, or best) route.
And make sure your villains build their lairs accordingly in at least some cases.
Don't take away or restrict the spell--use it to your DMing advantage.
Magic is a tricky thing. It's fluid and spell descriptors do their best to convey the intent of the spell along with some technical specifications. If the PCs cast the spell and say "the lair of the white dragon we just fought" or such, I would argue that the magic of the spell knows what the PCs are talking about. It's magic.
Besides, the request can't be too specific otherwise they'd already have enough information about it to infer its location and not need the spell in the first place.
What the PCs are asking for is help finding their next goal. They see that scroll as the best/easiest way to get it.
I would say that actually the easiest way is to use Knowledge (arcana) to know where a white dragon of that size, type, and behavior is most likely to lair and then to act on that knowledge. It's cheaper, too.
But anyway, you have an opportunity to specifically direct the PCs to the next stage in the adventure, or to a side quest that they'll find entertaining. The path to the lair may be impassible by the PCs (in a cave in a glacier that's too high, too sheer, too dangerous, whatever). Thus, the spell could point to a place that would concretely lead to the lair, like to a small adventure that would lead to ice climbing equipment sufficient to reach the lair, or whatever.
I would explain it as: Rather than failing, the spell leads you to the best possible place or situation to get to the lair.
The spell may not lead super-directly-straight-as-an-arrow to the lair, but, you know, magic is a tricky and fluid thing. It'll do its best to help.
That is to say: It'll do its best to move the adventure along.
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My best advice is to use the 'ask for directions' rule, where the spell works provided the PCs specify the location sufficiently well that a passing celestial could hypothetically give directions.
I like this idea a lot.
Besides, the request can't be too specific otherwise they'd already have enough information about it to infer its location and not need the spell in the first place.
An excellent point.
It's more fun for the PCs when their magic works -- esp. when that magic requires them to be 11th level, which is getting up there. Also, as previously noted, at this stage the PCs just want to move the adventure along... so why would you want to stop them from doing that?
You are very right and my intention was not to keep the magic from working or to stop them from moving things along. I guess the issue was I had a vague fear that if I allowed something like "the lair of the white dragon we just fought", I would be doing some sort of heretofore unforeseen harm to my game by allowing such descriptions to work. Obviously the spell is not often used in my group (the game usually ends before 11th level and my previous games have been low magic and thus resources of this nature were not available), so I don't have much experience with the spell.
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My opinion is that the spell is "find the PATH' not 'locate destination.' If you do not know the exact location, you cannot use this spell for directions. If you were to discover a place by means of scrying, astral travel, or other means, you could then use find the path to figure out how to get there. It should be considered outside the scope of the spell to determine where 'there' is. I like the comparison to 'asking for directions.' In our world, let's say you're chasing someone named Joe. If you ask someone 'can you tell me how to get to Joe's house?' they're going to look at you funny and think you're crazy because there are thousands of Joes and they could live anywhere. If you had Joe's driver's license, however, you could find his address and then ask 'can you tell me how to get to 1324 Harbor Ave in Boston?' I like this guideline and will adapt it for my own games.
In the example of the dragon's lair, I would think that the spell fails unless the party had already been to said lair or, at the very least, had an accurate enough description of the place to define it in the caster's mind. I would also permit the spell to find things like 'the exit of this dungeon' or 'the king's bedroom in this castle' because, once you've found the dungeon (or the castle), you can pretty much guarantee that it has an exit (or bedroom) SOMEWHERE.
Teleport can take you to a location that you've never been to before based on a detailed description alone (albeit with a chance for mishap) so I do not think this spell is overpowered as a 6th level spell (since teleport is only 5th level).
I would think that the spell fails unless the party had already been to said lair
Then why does the spell exist? If they've already been there, then they know where it is, and thus don't need magical guidance to find it.
And as to reducing this spell to asking someone for directions, that's too restrictive, I think, because it's such a high-level spell to merely substitute for a guy on the street. It's supposed to be really cool magic that concretely helps the party out.
You have to remember: They wouldn't be casting the spell if they thought they had an alternative to finding out the information. Maybe no one in the party has Knowledge (arcana) or there's no nearby town or village with regular hunters or farmers who would know, or there's no sage they can consult, or any other means at their disposal.
When someone casts the spell, it's the players saying "We have no idea where or how to proceed from here and need help from an outside source." That source is the spell.
My suggestion is to use that to your advantage--not restrict its use. The spell should always work because it's a cry for help. Help your players, don't slap them down for trying to advance the adventure.
Truly the last thing I would want to have happen is to have one of my mid- to high-level spell slots wasted on an attempt to move the adventure along. Well, I would learn from the experience that I would never, ever, want to spend a slot on that spell again--thus reducing the effectiveness of my character and class to the party which, of course, would bring the sadness.
Think of the spell as a GPS. The spell calculates the most direct path to the destination starting from where you are. It then tells you the first step to take in following that path. When you complete the first step, the spell tells you the next step to take. While the spell does tell you about most traps and intervening obstacles, note that it has a limited duration. Therefore, if you don't want the players to have too easy a time finding their destination, just move it farther away. The spell will run out and all they'll know is that "it's over there somewhere," besides which, there are plenty of other ways to foil divination spells out there.
I agree with the other people on this thread. As long as the PCs provide sufficient information about the place then the spell should allow them to get there.
Of course, the spell does not need to erase the rest of an adventure for you. For instance, the white dragon they just fought could have multiple lairs (and perhaps a mate waiting in the wings), while finding their way to the lich-lord's inner sanctum might reveal to them that they need three special keys to get there. Damn... there goes the direct route!
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You have to remember: They wouldn't be casting the spell if they thought they had an alternative to finding out the information. Maybe no one in the party has Knowledge (arcana) or there's no nearby town or village with regular hunters or farmers who would know, or there's no sage they can consult, or any other means at their disposal.
When someone casts the spell, it's the players saying "We have no idea where or how to proceed from here and need help from an outside source." That source is the spell.
I disagree with you there. Find the Path will be the first thing the party does upon performing a few Gather Information checks. Why would they bother floundering about looking for someplace when they can get there directly, avoiding missteps, side encounters and red herrings along the way? The spell certainly is not expensive at 1650gp per casting if bought on scroll (certainly affordable by my 8th level group, not to mention one character will be able to cast Find the Path once a tenday via his Shaundakul's Boots). If characters have a surefire means to reach the desitnation they seek, they will likely use it first, not as a last resort.
And remember, find the path has no effect on creatures. It might tell you to turn left and go into the old purple worm tunnels to avoid the sandstorm coming through the desert mountain pass, but it sure doesn't tell you about the blue dragon who knows that sandstorm will cause a lot of people to go into those very tunnels. With his ambush nicely set up for any foolish dope who relies too much on magic to navigate.
For even greater fun, the living wall creature/template from Dragon 343 can be used to block off "the most direct path" and the spell won't even notice, because the wall is a creature! This could also be done creatively with golems as well. Twin Juggernaut golems as a set of mobile doors? Sounds challenging, and just the sort of thing to keep those pesky adventurers out of those forgotten tombs. Remember, the people who make dungeons that high level adventurers go to were probably high level themselves, and know what kind of tricks can be pulled, so they build accordingly. My karate instructor always said, "Be an open house, open your arms, invite them to come in, to hit you, so they take your invitation and you can shut your doors behind them". Cue an abysmally hard block-strike on my punch that left a bruise for weeks.
The spell is good, but once a creature comes into play, it fails utterly. Then it falls to the good freinds of spot, listen, and survival.
Another thing to note, as it caught us (in our Age of Worms game) with our pants down. The spell only functions for the caster or the person the caster cast it on. In our game, the caster is a raptoran, and she flies almost everywhere. As a result, the spell ignored the first spiked, wyvern venom laced, carion crawler infested 100' pit trap that we came across, as SHE didn't have to worry about triggering it or being harmed by it. The rest of us...
So keep those two things in mind, and you can still have PCs who actually pay attention to the journey, not just the destination.
I think the Black Bard made the best call on this spell usage so far- or rather its more obvious limitations.
I see it as a tactical spell.
It is certainly "get out of the dungeon or find the path in the maze" magic, but might also be used to storm or infiltrate a fortress- where you KNOW the destination exists, and you aren't merely speculating. Typically mazes and dungeons have exits, one would hope. ;)
Still, the creatures caveat is a good one, while the Glyph word example is powerful, but will likely not be useful in any given scenario.
I don't know where nearly 2,000 gp for a string to the exit spell becomes "totally worth it" as exploring and being mindful of traps and magic should be second-nature for the party by 11th level, but then they should have the cash too.
Still, I wouldn't allow the use of Find the Path to find the White Dragon's lair. The party would be asking about a creature- it doesn't matter what the desired location is USED for, it matters that the reference that the spell is running on is the UNKNOWN location that is occupied or occasionally occupied by said dragon- Scry then Find the path...call it a day after Scry if you want.
But the PHB specifically mentions the location occupied by a dragon as not really being an option, but getting out of a maze? Sure.
This seems like a good cat burglar spell- pick up a few scrolls and jump over trip wires and get past glyphs of warding by divining the command words. Cast this on the rogue and you've got your loot if there aren't any creatures in the way. (again, that's the catch.)
The idea is that the subject of the spell is able to GUIDE the rest of the party out of or into a locale. If it is all monkey see monkey do and the guide point out trip wires and trap triggers (impediments really, right?) and disables glyphs...then yeah that's how it is used. If the Rogue would have to make DC 40 checks several times, just cast Find the Path on him and keep the fighter's sword close to deal with chokers and the like.
I definitely wouldn't allow carte blanche usage of this spell. It is rather specific language in the PHB, powerful, but specific. If you're lost in the woods, but know your destination- use this spell (Druid). If you know the evil temple lies ahead through the dungeon- use this spell (Cleric), if you want to get there by the most direct and best route possible- (Travel & Knowledge), etc. Bards also get this spell.
Again, the "Ask for Directions" guideline is a good one. Divination isn't an exact science, but if you play your cards right, you get a very accurate and useful reading.
(I totally want to play a roguish diviner now, but Find the Path isn't a Sor/Wiz spell...bard?)