
Fizzban |

I’ve heard a lot of talk on these boards about the Abjurant Champion, and I was wondering are they really that great? I’ve have the Complete Mage and the AbjC looked good, but it didn’t really blow me away. I haven’t played one, but they do seem good and solid.
Fizz
My first thought actually was would this be good to use with the gun mage from Iron Kingdoms

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Yeah, I feel like the abjurant champion has a printing error of some type giving it full spell progression. I would suspect that if you carved off the first level of spell progression and make the pre-req into proficiency with all martial weapons (see below), it might just be on the high end of the curve without being stupid.
The thing that always strikes me as odd about that class is, IIRC, an elven wizard or sorcerer can qualify for it without multi-classing. I could be wrong, but I think the pre-reqs are something like: ability to cast N level spells and proficiency with a martial weapon (not all martial weapons). An elven wizard has proficiency with the longbow, which is a martial weapon. Thus, the elven wizard can take levels in the prestige class.
Whether improving your familiar and gaining bonus metamagic feats is a fair trade for a better HD, better BAB, and some special abilities on top of that, I leave that determination to wiser folks than I.
All that being said, it's entirely possible that I'm missing some glaring issue with the class that is obvious in actual play. It might be that the class is provides for a playable fighter/caster multi-class in the same way that arcane trickster provides for a playable rogue/caster multi-class. It's always hard to tell for classes that are designed to make multi-classing not suck whether they are balanced. Most of my complaints stem from the ease with which strait casters can take the class because losing a caster level is a significant cost.

Vegepygmy |

The thing that always strikes me as odd about that class is, IIRC, an elven wizard or sorcerer can qualify for it without multi-classing. I could be wrong...
You're not wrong. That's exactly correct.
It might be that the class is provides for a playable fighter/caster multi-class in the same way that arcane trickster provides for a playable rogue/caster multi-class.
It depends on what you consider "playable." If you consider the Eldritch Knight "playable" (as I do), the Abjurant Champion goes way beyond just making a fighter/arcanist "playable." If you think Eldritch Knights are pathetic wimps, though, the Abjurant Champion probably goes a long way toward the goal.

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You're not wrong. That's exactly correct.
Yay for memory!
It depends on what you consider "playable." If you consider the Eldritch Knight "playable" (as I do), the Abjurant Champion goes way beyond just making a fighter/arcanist "playable." If you think Eldritch Knights are pathetic wimps, though, the Abjurant Champion probably goes a long way toward the goal.
Yeah, I probably should've mentioned that there are already an assload of prestige classes designed to fill in the warrior/arcanist multi-class slot, including the Eldritch Knight. I haven't ever had anyone play any of these prestige classes (except the Arcane Archer, which seemed fairly mild), so I don't really know if any of them are any good. On paper, I always am deterred from the warrior/arcanist combo, so I suppose on a straight read I haven't found such classes to be playable. Which is not to say that they aren't playable, just that they've never gotten me excited enough to play them.

StevenO |

Actually, ANY wizard or sorcerer could take the Abjurant Champ without multiclassing. It just costs them another feat to get the martial weapon.
The A'Champ may be broken with fighter/MAGE builds by letting them have full casting and BAB but I almost believe it is necessary for FIGHTER/mage builds. So many of the gish PrCs have spellcasting requirements of 2nd level or higher (Spellsword and Eldritch Knight come to mind) that a warrior has to give up too many points of BAB (and often hp) to get their spellcasting to that level. With the A'Champ they can get by with only a one level casting dip prereq and when finished with the class cast 3rd level spells so entry into other gish classes will no longer be a problem.

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RE: The post before this one -
What the hell does gish mean? I've seen it before in reference to fighter/mage builds so I can only assume it has something to do with the combination of martialry and swordplay but... where do you get 'gish' from 'fighter/mage'?
It's a reference to githyanki multi-class characters. In 1e/2e, githyanki came in various flavors, and the fighter/mage multi-class version were called Gish.

Bran 637 |

I’ve heard a lot of talk on these boards about the Abjurant Champion, and I was wondering are they really that great? I’ve have the Complete Mage and the AbjC looked good, but it didn’t really blow me away. I haven’t played one, but they do seem good and solid.
Fizz
My first thought actually was would this be good to use with the gun mage from Iron Kingdoms
One major flaw of this class is that Mage Armor is not an abjuration, making this PrC useless as you cannot enhance your armor bonus while Mage armor is in effect. It only works with Shield whose duration is much shorter. IMO it reduces this PrC's interest a lot. Otherwise, it's playable.
Bran.

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What makes the Ab Champ powerful, in my experience, is the quickened abjurations. My battle sorcerer 7/ab champ 4 is able to dominate the combats with her two spells a round. Throw a shield up for defence, toss orbs for offence. Cast Protection from Evil on the figther, toss a shadow evocation. Quick cast Icicle and Mel's Acid arrow.
One more level, and I can start throwing quickened dispel magics as well. Tenacious Dispelling is very dangerous in their hands, as is Arcane Turmoil

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One major flaw of this class is that Mage Armor is not an abjuration, making this PrC useless as you cannot enhance your armor bonus while Mage armor is in effect. It only works with Shield whose duration is much shorter. IMO it reduces this PrC's interest a lot. Otherwise, it's playable.
Bran.
Technically I would go the other way and say it applies to Mage Armor as an exception to the "abjuration only armor and shield bonus". The text actually points out and specifically says "mage armor, shield, and similar spells instead of actual armor" when talking about increasing the armor or shield bonuses. It seems like they make an exception to the "Abjuration spells only" rule for mage armor (I personally think someone didn't realize MA wasn't an abjur. when creating the class and added it as an example to make it legal to use). However, mage armor definately doesn't qualify for Extended abjuration or Swift abjuration.
I hate when they have contradictory text in classes.my take on it.
FH

Bran 637 |

Technically I would go the other way and say it applies to Mage Armor as an exception to the "abjuration only armor and shield bonus". The text actually points out and specifically says "mage armor, shield, and similar spells instead of actual armor" when talking about increasing the armor or shield bonuses. It seems like they make an exception to the "Abjuration spells only" rule for mage armor (I personally think someone didn't realize MA wasn't an abjur. when creating the class and added it as an example to make it legal to use). However, mage armor definately doesn't qualify for Extended abjuration or Swift abjuration.
I hate when they have contradictory text in classes.
my take on it.
FH
Good idea. It makes things a lot better. And I agree it wasn't done on purpose. Another un-tested product from $$$$ of the Coast... Hope they'll publish an errata soon to clarify things a bit.
Bran.
Post edited for self censorship :)

ZeroCharisma |

I try not to overuse the word "broken," so I'll just say this: if you're going to play a fighter/wizard type, I can't think of any sensible reason not to be an Abjurant Champion.
And that pretty much says it all. The Abj. Champ in my campaign was rocking a 44* AC (At Level 13) the other day. Needless to say, this prestige class will not be invited back for the next campaign.
It should be a challenge to play a Fighter/Arcanist build. This Prestige class is just silly. I am not going to take away my friend's toys for this campaign, but I may feature an Abjurant Champion BBEG so I can have a little powergaming fun before I hunt down every copy of "Complete Mage" and convert it into bio-fuel before the next campaign *wg*
*P.S: This was during a round when his Attack Bonus was +22

Xellan |

And that pretty much says it all. The Abj. Champ in my campaign was rocking a 44* AC (At Level 13) the other day. Needless to say, this prestige class will not be invited back for the next campaign.
<snip>
*P.S: This was during a round when his Attack Bonus was +22
Could you stat this out for us? I'm curious to know where all the bonuses are coming from; I'd like to know classes and levels, as well as how the bonuses for attack and AC added up for this guy.
Overall, I don't see a huge problem with this class. It's strong, but not obscenely so. It bolsters the warrior mage concept because it gives them access to a decent AC and BAB without having to burn a crapload of feats (Ftr 4, Wiz/Sor 2, Abj Champ 5, Eld Knight 9 gives 15 caster levels for determining spells and +19 BAB). And it bolsters the wizard, giving them access to a slightly better BAB (for rays and touch spells) and a good AC by way of making their lower level spell slots useful, rather than reliant on magic items (Level 5 can be skipped, though, unless you want the +2 AC). Can it get broken with the right combination of classes and whatnot? Sure. But that's not a factor of poor design, or WotC failing to do their jobs. That's just a natural result of any system that reaches a certain complexity; loopholes.
EDIT: The warrior concept I listed above isn't all that spectacular when you consider classes like the Duskblade. And the caster concept is something that /should/, theoretically, come into play very little since a mage shouldn't be where he's going to get hit alot.

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Hmm, let me try.
AC 10
Ring of Protection +2 for deflection bonus
Barkskin (Via arcane disciple feat) for +5 natural armor
Shield for +9 Bonus
Using Mage armor (and allowing Ab Champ to work) for +9
Dex 16 (either via stat or item booster) +3
burn a 6th level slot for a +6 insight bonus to AC
AC: 44
and that last leve (5th) gives you explosive runes, dispel magic, and a number of 3rd level abjuration spells quickened.

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Christopher Tomas wrote:Is the full class description for an abjurant champion available anywhere online? I have googled around and can't seem to find it.It's closed content, therefore not likely to appear online anywhere.
Thank the Divine for that. Last thing we need is more Abjurant Cheesewhores.