For a lot of items, and for learning purposes, you need certain spells on your spell list. But with all the new books coming out, spell lists keep expanding and expanding.
Are all of these just considered to be 'on your list'?
This seems somewhat unfair against the spontaneous casters (and wizards, in lesser degree)
But if it's not like that, how exactly would you add spells to your spell list? Anyone use house-rules or guidelines to determine whether or not a spell is one someones spell list?
Same goes for custom spells; if a party comes across a Wand of Custom Spell X that is sor/wiz2, would any sorceror or wizard be able to use said wand, even though they've never even heard of the spell before, nor have seen it in action?
What are your thoughts on this expanding list situation?
Yes, a sorcerer or wizard can use a spell-completion item containing a spell they've never heard of as long as it's on their class spell list. If they couldn't, then a sorcerer who didn't know fireball and who had never been subject to or seen a fireball in action wouldn't be able to use a wand of it. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and it certainly isn't balanced.
Don't forget that class spell lists aren't spells known. Class spell lists are all the spells theoretically knowable by a member of that class. If there's a spell in the Complete Half-Dragon Celestial Paragon Walrus that's Sorcerer/Wizard anywhere from level 0 to 9, and a wizard finds a wand of it, he can use it.
It's all for game balance, but if you need an explanation, that's not hard, either. Each spell casting class goes about their art in a different manner, drawing on different sources of power with different practices and procedures for drawing that power. Therefore, if it is possible for their power source and school of magical theory to produce effect X, they know how to draw effect X out of a wand/staff/scroll/magical burrito. If their mystical philosophy cannot produce effect X, then they can't draw effect X out of the wand/staff/sroll/enchanted chinchilla.
I fail to see the issue at hand.
I fail to see the issue at hand.
I think he might be referring to the fact that clerics, druids and other classes that have an unlimited number of spells know have a big advantage whenever new spells are published; they get extra options with no cost in terms of GP or limited spell slots.
Except for Saern, you're all conflating "spells known" with spells that are "on the class spell list."
A "spell known" is one that you are capable of preparing (for clerics, druids, wizards, rangers, paladins, etc.) or one that you are capable of casting on your own (for spontaneous casters like bards, sorcerers, favored souls, assassins, etc.) because it is on your chosen list of "spells known." If you're a wizard, any spell in your spellbook is "known." If you're a divine caster who prepares spells, it means any spell on the list in the player's handbook for your class and caster level, plus any additional spells from other sources that the DM allows you access to, or has allowed you to research. For spontaneous casters, it's limited by your selection of "spells known" as spelled out in the tables and rules governing those classes' "spells known."
On your "spell list" means that the spell can be cast by someone of your class. You don't have to "know it" or "have it written in your spell book," it just has to be listed as a spell that is available for your class. (For specialist wizards, spells from your prohibited schools are not on your spell list). So even if you find a scroll of an obscure spell from an obscure supplement book, if it's listed as being castable by your class (no matter what caster level), you have a chance to activate it. The exception would be that if the spell is listed on the spell lists both divine and arcane spellcasting classes, it still must be written as either a divine or arcane spell, and can only be cast by the appropriate spellcasting classes. For wands, staffs, and so forth, the arcane/divine distinction does not matter--so a bard can use any wand of cure light wounds, for example, because that spell is on his spell list, but a bard could not cast cure light wounds from a scroll authored by a divine spellcaster.
As far as the divine spells go, Paul S Kemp talked about this on his blog a while back when discussion how to write divine casters in his novels. His point was that while there are some really cool spells that have popped up in recent years, he also likes the idea that some clerics just don't know some spells.
The way I handled it in my campaign is that this is a great reason to have clerical characters travel to other temples in other regions. If a cleric goes to a temple in a port city and members of the clergy spend time on ships, you might expand their spell lists from just the spells in the PH to the spells in Stormwrack as well.
If they go to a shrine near a desert, or near the cold northern mountains, they might pick up spells from Sandstorm or Frostburn, and if they go to a temple that is considered one of the most exalted, good temples in the region, they might learn spells from the Book of Exalted Deeds.
Outside of what the actual characters DO, the main point is to see if there are any spells they are interested in, and if they are interested in spells from a given source, come up with something that the character has to do so that they feel like they have expanded their knowledge. Divine casters shouldn't have to roll to learn new spells, but they do have to be exposed to them in order to use them (excluding the archivist, of course, but that's a whole other thing).
On top of that, you can make sure that the divine scrolls that the cleric finds are ones with more obscure spells on them, and in this case, unlike a wizard, they just get to add it to their spell list.
I guess I liken it to priests when they are ordained. They may be ordained in a certain rite, and if they are, they can say the mass a certain way, but there are other rites with different variations. They are still ordained priests without knowing the other rites, but they can broaden their knowledge base by learning other accepted rites of the faith.
I fail to see the issue at hand.I think he might be referring to the fact that clerics, druids and other classes that have an unlimited number of spells know have a big advantage whenever new spells are published; they get extra options with no cost in terms of GP or limited spell slots.
This is a separate issue, and one that must be tackled by each DM. Here's how I handle it. The PH defines what is available to ordinary PCs. If you want to cast something out of the SC or another source, you have to follow the procedures in the DMG to research the spell. If successful, you can "learn" the spell and have it available to you in the normal fashion for your class. This allows me, the DM, to (a) prevent clerics and druids from being overpowered, and (b) to put the kaibosh on a spell from a supplement that I think is cheese whiz, or to alter the spell description, raise the spell level, or whatever if I don't like it as written.
If I start a campaign with characters above first level, I typically let them pick a limited number of spells from the SC or other sources, subject to DM approval--this represents their prior research and allows them to do a few special things, but keeps them from being too powerful.
There are certain spells I positively do not allow in my campaign, such as the various energy orb spells in the SC, which I think are significantly overpowered. Attempts to gain such spells by research always fail, or might result in a spell that is nerfed to adjust it to the right power level. It should also be noted that while I allow most Complete series classes, I don't allow warmages, because they have an overpowering array of offensive spells. (Not that they don't have some weaknesses, but I think on the whole they are overpowered and overspecialized, and none of the campaign worlds I use is such a high-magic world that I want units of warmages rampaging around on the battlefield, which is kind of what the class's background implies to be the situation).
Thanks for the input everyone.
Yes, a sorcerer or wizard can use a spell-completion item containing a spell they've never heard of as long as it's on their class spell list. If they couldn't, then a sorcerer who didn't know fireball and who had never been subject to or seen a fireball in action wouldn't be able to use a wand of it. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and it certainly isn't balanced.
Actually, I think it makes sense that a Sorcerer who had never seen a Fireball in action wouldn't be able to use a wand of it immideately.
Afterall; he has absolutely no idea what the spell he's about to cast is going to do.I'd say it would take some time to study the spell in question and figure out exactly what it's going to do, before he's going to fling it away.
The same would go for a Scroll of an unknown spell; the caster in question should have to do some research to figure out how his new works before he can cast it even, even if he knows the name of the spell.
Even if not in 'how to activate' then in 'what the hell will this actually do, once in effect?'
Well, for scrolls, a Spellcraft check or simple read magic would suffice. Of course the spellcaster will desire to know what the thing does- they're likely to hold off using it until they have time for an identify casting. I'm not sure if the RAW agrees with it, but you could say that it's somewhat like a command word item such as a flaming sword: you can't activate the sword until you know the word. Likewise, you could say that, until you figure out what a wand/scroll/staff does, you can't use it, because you haven't the faintest clue what gestures or proceedures are appropriate. Once you know what effect it produces, you can figure out how to turn it "on" fairly easily.
And the recently minted magic item compendium gives plenty of options for this identification process. My players really like that expanded/clarified/collected list. It has both helped the speed of our game somewhat and made them feel skills they have are more useful.
And the recently minted magic item compendium gives plenty of options for this identification process. My players really like that expanded/clarified/collected list. It has both helped the speed of our game somewhat and made them feel skills they have are more useful.
Yeah - my players really like it too...I take that as a bad sign. I'm of the opinion that anytime all my players are happy about something then I have a problem.
What are your thoughts on this expanding list situation?
I might not be feeling this as much as some. I allow a lot of splat books in my game but not all of them and I essentially cut off things when Players Handbook II came out.
From my perspective the expanded list did not really harm the Sorcerer. Extra spells to choose from is just more options and that is a benefit not a penalty - even if you ultimately know a smaller percentage of the over all spells. Furthermore some of the spells, especially from Players Handbook II, really play into the Sorcerers strong points. If you get a lot of spells per day being able to cast one spell as a swift action and then another as a standard action is a really big plus.
As far as the Cleric is concerned - well I'm all for making that class more powerful and versatile. I'll change my tune when it starts seeming like all the players want to be clerics and no one wants to be any of the other classes. My feeling is that, far more often then everyone wanting to be a cleric, we, instead, have a situation where no one wants to be the cleric.
Hence my only real problem is the expanding Druid List. But its really not expanding all that fast. Druids are a little bit robbed in this department. The splat books tend to focus on them and the Bard last so I don't really notice them getting out of hand.