I can't see anything wrong with 3.5 edition.
Then you're not looking hard enough.
But seriously, what's the reason they do anything? Money, period.
Here is the answer: MONEY!
They want to make a new and "improved" edition that we all want to buy so that we then go out and buy the three core rulebooks. Then they would probably re-release the Complete series of books and all of the other v3.5 books that sold well. But they won't be the same! They'll just be updated a little so that they work well with the new edition, mabye have a few new feats and spells that are even more overpowered, so as to continue v3.5's power creep. That way they can get us to buy them again! I say screw them. I have invested a lot of money into v3.5 and even if they do make a new edition I'll keep playing v3.5. If I really want to Ican probably convert my own books, there probably won't be that big of a change. Will anyone else stick with v3.5?
Will anyone else stick with v3.5?
Hell Yes! I dropped too much money on 3.5. I'm also very happy with what I have, and I don't want to learn a new edition.
Fizz
I am considering making the skill group modifications to my own game. I don't need to spend $30+ buying a whole new book so that I can have modifications that I am already planning to do for free for myself. I'll probably look at the new fourth edition books if and when they come out and if I see anything I like I'll just add it to my v3.5 game.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Off the top of my head, the following are elements that could be improved upon/fixed:
1. Magic Items: It's a crappy point buy system stapled onto the core mechanic. It doesn't work, it's hard to adjust, it generally blows.
2. Class Flexibility: Incorporate the idea of class ability substitution into the core rules to make classes more flexible.*
3. Magic: It needed more of a tweaking for 3e, and it's long overdue. There are a lot of options for magic tweaks, but I would like to see an increased emphasis on core competence of the casters (e.g., wizards blow stuff up, druids deal with nature, etc.) It's definitely present in 3e, but could be brought out more.
4. CR/ECL/Etc: The system is fairly confusing as demonstrated by the frequent questions. Make it cleaner and put it in the core rules.
5. Actions: Incorporate the concept of the various types of swift actions throughout the core rules including feats, class abilities, spells, and magic items to allow for an increased level of interactivity.
6. The 3.5 Tweaks: There are a ton of minor tweaks to be done on par with what 3.5 did to 3.0.
I think the magic item system is the biggest thing in need of a revamp. Honestly, if they did that and incorporated a lot of the innovations of the optional books and called that 4e, I'd be happy. That's basicaly what 2e did, and that's the type of change I would expect from a new system. It won't be 4e: the new core mechanic, it will be 4e: the best of 3.5 in 3 easy to use volumes.
*Don't even raise the no classes/only 4 core class argument. The classes are a major strength of D&D and are not going anywhere. There is room for more flexible classes, but do not expect anything like a generic system with just a fighter/wizard/adventurer template.
So, can someone tell me why WotC wants to create a 4th edition?
Two reasons, really.
1) The above mentioned money.
2) Dispute over the current rules.
If WoTCs staff never received an email asking for clarification, and all debate ended on their forums, they would no longer have any justification to release a new edition.
But since, at least some of, the debates are usually fueled by a form of mental masturbation and a need to prove dominance... They have a never ending supply of justification.
If you stick around the hobby long enough, I am sure it will get up to 7th edition in my lifetime.
I'm going to combine D&D with Mutants&Masterminds.
It's a near perfect system, I'll just have to add the proper flavor and I'll never have to buy D&D books again! Mwaha!
Do you really think that a 4th edition will make it so that there isn't any dispute over rules?
Absolutely not. That would cut into their profit margin. And the fact that no WoTC official ever steps into the most heated debates, helps to fuel this conspiracy theory.
It is "good" business practice for them to allow the most heated disputes continue until they produce a new edition that fixes them.
I am a jaded bastard, but I even believe they put questionable wording into some of their products to encourage this sort of thing.
But, if the D&D community stopped their pissing contests over how to interpret the rules, WoTC would lose a large portion of their rationale for new editions.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I am a jaded bastard, but I even believe they put questionable wording into some of their products to encourage this sort of thing.
Neh. I think it's unintentional. Ambiguities arise in every legal system, so I can't see how the editors at WotC would have the ability to draft rules that are free of them given that generations of legislators, judges, and similar persons have been unable to do so.
I don't understand why this keeps coming up. At least three quarters of the people on these boards have some suggestions to make the rules better. I can only imagine what goes through the heads of the professionals over at WotC. I'm sure Hasbro is always prodding them to come up with ways to make money, including updating the core rules. And with a bunch of gamers already trying to perfect the rules for their home games I'm sure those designers are working on it.
3.5 fixed stuff. Fourth edition has to be a rules overhaul. If the designers over there figure out how to do it, it will be released. When it is, then I'll judge. But why complain about a product that isn't out yet, and that you don't have to buy, and that you don't even know the value of?
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It won't be 4e: the new core mechanic, it will be 4e: the best of 3.5 in 3 easy to use volumes.
So, instead of creating new rules (like the 2e - 3e switch), they'll probably just tweak existing rules (like the 3e - 3.5e switch)? That would be nice if that's all that happens, but considering how these people's brains work, they'll probably switch to a dice pool system...
I honestly don't care about 4e. I have all the gaming material I need in 3.5 and 3e rules. I'm not so bothered by the little bugs in the system--if they get in the way of my gaming experience and my fun, then I'll fix them, if not, I don't care. While the rules help keep things organized, they are not the game. I could cobble together the most unbalanced, useless peace of s$!& immaginable, and still be happy with my roleplaying experience. I'll wait for 4e to make a desicion, but until then, I have no opinion.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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they'll probably switch to a dice pool system...I suspect not, given what a miserable failure this was in White Wolf.
White Wolf = Good settings. Not so much good dice mechanics.
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I'm not sure what your definition of "miserable failure" is, but White Wolf is the second biggest rpg company and tens of thousands of gamers play their system. A dice pool has merits and flaws, but it's definitely not per se an inferior system.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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they'll probably switch to a dice pool system...I suspect not, given what a miserable failure this was in White Wolf.
White Wolf = Good settings. Not so much good dice mechanics.
...
I'm not sure what your definition of "miserable failure" is, but White Wolf is the second biggest rpg company and tens of thousands of gamers play their system. A dice pool has merits and flaws, but it's definitely not per se an inferior system.
Ditto here. White Wolf's systems have always been much easier and smoother to incorporate into gameplay for my group and I. Now, with the new-and-improved combat system in the new World of Darkness, combats are over in a matter of minutes instead of hours. A combat between two normal humans will take fewer than 8 dice rolls to resolve in most cases. If one of them is a real badass and the other one is a chump, it might only take 2 or 3. Total real-world time spent in combat rounds: 5 minutes or less.
I love it!
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Okay, I do sort of owe a greater explanation and detail to my broad generalization.
I will say that most of my experience from the mechanics comes from the first editions of the games when they were still trying to hash out the mechanics. The problem I have with it is the rules poorly define what your pool of dice is when doing actions that normally have a different number of dice being read.
If they've standardized and cleaned up this mechanic, then bravo for them. My comments were more directed at the implementation, not the core concept. I have other issues with White Wolf's games, but I have played quite a few of them and enjoyed them, but the dice pool mechanic never made good sense to me.
Neh. I think it's unintentional. Ambiguities arise in every legal system, so I can't see how the editors at WotC would have the ability to draft rules that are free of them given that generations of legislators, judges, and similar persons have been unable to do so.
I'll give you that statement without (much of) a fight.
But I find it damned hard to believe that between their staff, whom some have illustrious careers in the hobby, alleged play testers, and their knowledge of what their community is like - that they don't have at least one person who has either had enough dealings with munchkin / rules lawyers, or is close enough to one or the other themselves, to not be able to notice how some things are worded and say:
"Wait a minute. That doesn't read very well. That can be interpreted in so many different ways. Not the least of which is this particular game breaking way."
But that is my take on it anyway.
If they take a note from the computer game industry, they should call the next installment "D&D 4th Edition: Beta."
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Avoiding ambiguity is remarkably difficult in any technical writing.
The difficulty is compounded when writing modular game rules of the sort in D&D (or collectible card games) because each new rule needs to neither contradict nor confuse any of the old rules. Each new rule needs to be compared not only with the other rules being released in the same book, but also with every rule then in existence. This becomes exponentially more difficult with each new release and it rapidly becomes practically (and certainly financially) impossible to test each new rule completely.
You can mitigate this somewhat by rigorously using standard concepts and adhering carefully to a comprehensive style guide. But when you're trying for creativity, using only standard language and concepts is often impossible.
One of the innovations of D&D 3.0 (for D&D, anyway) was that it actually made an attempt for consistency. If you compare the current version with any version of AD&D, this is immediately apparent. But the current rules set is really quite large, so some problems are unavoidable.
None of this proves the absence of a conspiracy, but other explanations are more parsimonious.
So, can someone tell me why WotC wants to create a 4th edition?
The point is, as much as people blow smoke, the majority of players *will* pay whatever amount on updated core books, suppliments, blah, blah, blah. There are plenty of people who didn't see any need for third edition and remained faithful to 2nd ed; and were brushed off by the company as well as by rabid 3.x users. They are trampled in the name of progress but ... hey, whatcha gonna do? Many who stuck with 2nd ed initially were only able to maintain their resistance to change for a limited amount of time (even if that time was years). Eventually the hassle of converting everything to the "old" system and/or choosing to not participate in any of the new concepts just wears a person down. They try the new system, maybe even reluctantly, and eventually go "Hey, this *is* 'easier' or 'better' or at least equally fun!". Also, there's no denying the significant number of consumers who returned to the game or began playing for the first time simply *because* a new version came out. So, bottom line, despite all the heated debate, this marketing scheme has worked time and again for the producers of D&D. There's no reason for them to hold back on 4th edition and every reason to strive toward it.
Also, I don't know where this idea that they "tested" consumers to see if they really wanted 3.0 or 3.5 comes from. The D&D gurus simply asked "what would you change if you could?" and after months of a vocal percentage saying "Nothing! Don't change our game!" they just bit the bullet and said, "Listen. *That* decision has already been made. We are putting out a new edition so shut up about that and just tell us what you want it to include!". So goes any marketing scheme for the newest edition.
But all of this is sorta pointless to debate. I don't personally believe that in the midst of all this upheaval that WoTC is going to simultaneously attempt to launch a whole new version (even if it's technically a 3.75 rather than a full-blown 4.0). They're attempting to convert things to an electronic system rather than a table-top one. They've had mixed sucess at this (not that they're in charge of it, but WoW is huge. D&D online, which they *were* in charge of, ... not so great). Anyway, it doesn't affect me personally because I'm not into all those computer games, but I recognize that I'm probably in a significant minority. And that's okay with me too. :)
I don't think 3.5 is nearly as troublesome as 2e was by all accounts, however, and they haven't experienced the droves of players flocking to other games, to my knowledge (that is, I've heard nothing supporting such a statement). Rather, I think they're still riding a wave of increasing interest and enjoyment in D&D. I really don't see a need for a new edition *at this time.* I think it would be a huge mistake to release one so soon; I'm going to throw out a baseless number here, but I'd say not before another 5 years pass. I don't know if that's a longer run than 1e or 2e had, but then again, the situation is different now than it was in 1e/2e. Of course, it still comes down to the higher levels of Hasbro/WotC realizing this and acting appropriately, which as the past week has demonstrated, such a thing can't really be counted upon.
I can't see anything wrong with 3.5 edition. So, can someone tell me why WotC wants to create a 4th edition?
Money.
It's been said, but it is so true it bears repeating -- over and over and over and...
There comes a point when most of the people that are going to buy D&D have already bought it. The best way to make more money off the franchise is to make people buy a new edition (obviously they're not going to buy an old edition again).
Fortunately, for now 4/e is mostly our speculation, not something WotC is about to do (I hope).
Regards,
Jack