This actually came up as a big mess on the first day of my new SCAP Campaign. The Cleric in my party chose it as one of his first feats (human), and at first I didn't have a problem with it. Until we read it and couldn't figure it all out. One of the main problems is the PHB and the DMG are completely different, and parts of the description don't make sense.
First of all, in the PHB (P.99) it says it costs: 25GP X Level of the Spell X Level of the Caster. The caster must also spend 1/25 this price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price.
So, if I read it from the PHB, it costs 25GP for a first level spell (25 x 1 x 1). The part that doesn't make sense is the using "...up raw materials costing one-half of this base price." Does that mean that it costs an extra 12.5gp (37.5GP total) for one scroll? Or that the next scroll he scribes will only cost 12.5gp, for a total of 37.5GP for two scrolls; and after those two scrolls he spent up his raw materials and has to get more? The 37.5gp for each doesn't make sense anyway because to just buy the scrolls themselves only cost 25gp. Still going on that, now that he's second level, does that mean that it would cost him 50GP to make the same scroll because his caster level went up? Or does he still cast that spell for the scroll as a level 1 caster?
But in the DMG (P.287) it costs: 12.5GP x Level of the Spell x Level of the Caster. (It actually fails to mention the XP cost except in the table, but it does say that the cost of materials is subsumed [included in] the 12.5GP cost). Going by that, and the table, it takes 12.5gp for a level 1 spell, and the materials are included in that cost. But again, since he's a level higher, does he have to multiply that by 2, and pay 25GP for each Level 1 spell scroll scribed? Or does he still cast that spell for the scroll as a level 1 caster?
Ok, its true that item creation is nasty and complicated sometimes, and a lot gets lost in translation between the PHB and DMG. So here we go.
To buy a scroll, your looking at 25 x level x caster level. This is the "market price". (An important term to remember when dealing with item creation)
To make a scroll (or any other item, for that matter), your looking at 1/2 of the market price in GP, and 1/25 in XP. So, to make a caster level 1 scroll of Cure Light Wounds, you will spend 12.5 gp, and 1 xp.
A caster can always choose to cast a spell at a lower caster level, as long as it is the minimum caster level for the spell in question. Thus, even at level 2, he may still cast, and scribe scrolls of, cure light wounds at caster level 1. Why would he do this? Casting wise, I don't know. But scribing-wise, its all about profit. Because of the way the formula goes, at caster level 2, his scrolls cost twice as much (25 x 1 x 2) but he only gainst an extra +1 to damage cured. Why do that when you could create two CL 1 scrolls for the same price and have another 1d8+1? Its similar to a wand of CLW; you just can't beat the economy of it.
Hope that helps!
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For another example, there is no reason for a Wizard to scribe a fireball at any level higher than 10th (unless he's really desperate for range) because the effect caps at 10d6 damage.
If he did scribe it at a higher caster level then would the DC for the save be higher? Does the DC still count on the minimum necessary to cast the spell (10 +spell level+min.int. to cast spell), or does it use the actual caster who crafted the scroll's ability modifier and possibly caster level.
I recently got a wand of burning hands as treasure that does 5d4 but the DM determined that the DC of the save was 11 (1st level spell, minimum intelligence needed to cast spell=11(+0 modifier)) which renders the wand useless to my Wizo, which is the reason for my question.FH
Wizards could have an Int of 11 but still be 10th level. They'd just be stuck with (Metamagiced?) first level spells all the way.
There's probably a good reason why minimum DC is assumed. But it indeed isn't explained what happens when someone smarter crafts the wand, or if the PC's do it themselves...
DMG, p. 214, reads,
"Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. For example, a 2nd-level spell's save DC would be 10 + 2 (for the spell being 2nd level) +1 (for needing at least a 12 in the relevant ability score to cast a 2nd level spell), or a total of 13).
"Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster levle and all modifiers to save DC. For example, if Devis the bard triggers charm person from a staff of charming, it will have a save DC of 14 because Devis has a Charisma of 17. If Mialee the wizard triggers charm person from the same staff, it has a DC of 16 because her Intelligence score is 18 and she as the Spell Focus (enchantment) feat."
Other than staffs, magic items use the minimum save DC possible for their effect (this is why staves are freaking sweet). This is for simplicity and balance's sake, and to avoid arguments like the above in FH's post. My own players were trying to seek out wizards to custom craft wands for them, and it was throwing a wrench in the works for me. Obviously, this wand is better, but it doesn't cost any more. That didn't make sense to me. Further probing led to my discovery of this passage.
Note that even feats, like Spell Focus, do not get passed on to items a spellcaster creates.
Thus, magic items that require save DCs are not nearly as good as one might first assume, because the DCs are always abysmally low until the very high levels, and then only when used against classes and creatures with a bad save of the relevant sort.
Hey, thanks for the help guys. That actually cleared it up quite a bit. I got completely confused when I read it on Monday. I realize my mistake was in the wording (I've learned to read the "gist" of things, instead of every word. For school and just reading books sake. It obviously didn't work out so well this time). But yeah, now that I read it it makes perfect sense. And I also see about casting something at higher levels, so that's a big help too, for futures sake. Awesome, thanks.
Ankounite
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DMG, p. 214, reads,
"Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. For example, a 2nd-level spell's save DC would be 10 + 2 (for the spell being 2nd level) +1 (for needing at least a 12 in the relevant ability score to cast a 2nd level spell), or a total of 13).
"Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster levle and all modifiers to save DC. For example, if Devis the bard triggers charm person from a staff of charming, it will have a save DC of 14 because Devis has a Charisma of 17. If Mialee the wizard triggers charm person from the same staff, it has a DC of 16 because her Intelligence score is 18 and she as the Spell Focus (enchantment) feat."
Other than staffs, magic items use the minimum save DC possible for their effect (this is why staves are freaking sweet). This is for simplicity and balance's sake, and to avoid arguments like the above in FH's post. My own players were trying to seek out wizards to custom craft wands for them, and it was throwing a wrench in the works for me. Obviously, this wand is better, but it doesn't cost any more. That didn't make sense to me. Further probing led to my discovery of this passage.
Note that even feats, like Spell Focus, do not get passed on to items a spellcaster creates.
Thus, magic items that require save DCs are not nearly as good as one might first assume, because the DCs are always abysmally low until the very high levels, and then only when used against classes and creatures with a bad save of the relevant sort.
I believe there is a feat (and I can't remember where I read it and can't find it on the wizards feat index) that allows a caster to create an item with his own save DC rather than the standard minimum. I'm not sure if this applied to all item creation feats he has, or if the cster would have to take it for each ICF he has.
That feat is, I believe, in the horridly written Epic Level Handbook, although the feat itself doesn't require epic levels, if I remember correctly. I don't like it. However, if a player took this feat in a game of mine (providing I allowed it at all), he would be the only one ever encountered with it, so it would only apply to the crap he made.
Scrolls (and any other magic item that creates a spell effect) can be scribed (enchanted) with metamagic versions of a spell (empowered, heightened, maximized, etc.). Doing so raises the effective spell level for determining costs, minimum ability score, and caster level.
A wand of burning hand (5d4) would have a save DC of 11 and cost 1x5x15gp per charge. However, a wand of burning hands (heightened to 3rd) would have a save DC of 12 and cost 3x5x15gp per charge. Alternately, a wand of burning hands (empowered, 7.5d6) would also have a save DC of 12 and cost 3x5x15gp per charge.
At higher levels, the minimum ability score limit (and, to a lesser extent, the caster level to cost tradeoff) sucks. However, at that point you're probably better off just scribing/enchanting spells with no saving throws instead of spending feat slots to improve save DCs from items.
Scrolls (and any other magic item that creates a spell effect) can be scribed (enchanted) with metamagic versions of a spell (empowered, heightened, maximized, etc.). Doing so raises the effective spell level for determining costs, minimum ability score, and caster level.
A wand of burning hand (5d4) would have a save DC of 11 and cost 1x5x15gp per charge. However, a wand of burning hands (heightened to 3rd) would have a save DC of 12 and cost 3x5x15gp per charge. Alternately, a wand of burning hands (empowered, 7.5d6) would also have a save DC of 12 and cost 3x5x15gp per charge.
At higher levels, the minimum ability score limit (and, to a lesser extent, the caster level to cost tradeoff) sucks. However, at that point you're probably better off just scribing/enchanting spells with no saving throws instead of spending feat slots to improve save DCs from items.
Making a spell higher level with metamagic doesn't increase its save DC, whether you cast it or put it in an item. Only Heighten does that (and that's all it does). So, your second example wand has an inflated DC.
However, the former wand that employs Heighten Spell raises an interesting question. The spell save DC if Hieghtened to 3rd level would be 13 (10 + 3rd level spell)... or would it be 14 (10 + 3rd level spell + 1 for 13 relevant ability needed to cast)?
Heighten typically strikes me as a poor choice for preparing spells, but it's golden for item creation.
Scrolls (and any other magic item that creates a spell effect) can be scribed (enchanted) with metamagic versions of a spell (empowered, heightened, maximized, etc.). Doing so raises the effective spell level for determining costs, minimum ability score, and caster level.
A wand of burning hand (5d4) would have a save DC of 11 and cost 1x5x15gp per charge. However, a wand of burning hands (heightened to 3rd) would have a save DC of 12 and cost 3x5x15gp per charge. Alternately, a wand of burning hands (empowered, 7.5d6) would also have a save DC of 12 and cost 3x5x15gp per charge.
At higher levels, the minimum ability score limit (and, to a lesser extent, the caster level to cost tradeoff) sucks. However, at that point you're probably better off just scribing/enchanting spells with no saving throws instead of spending feat slots to improve save DCs from items.
Making a spell higher level with metamagic doesn't increase its save DC, whether you cast it or put it in an item. Only Heighten does that (and that's all it does). So, your second example wand has an inflated DC.
However, the former wand that employs Heighten Spell raises an interesting question. The spell save DC if Hieghtened to 3rd level would be 13 (10 + 3rd level spell)... or would it be 14 (10 + 3rd level spell + 1 for 13 relevant ability needed to cast)?
Heighten typically strikes me as a poor choice for preparing spells, but it's golden for item creation.
The heightened wand should have a save DC of 14 (10 +3 level +1 ability mod); damn typo. The empowered wand would still have a save DC of 12, since you would need a minimum ability score of 13 to cast.
I don't believe you actually need an Int of 13 to cast a Metamagic spell of first level, heightened to third. But I might have misunderstood it; so if anyone has a clarification that'd be a lot better ;)
I don't believe you actually need an Int of 13 to cast a Metamagic spell of first level, heightened to third. But I might have misunderstood it; so if anyone has a clarification that'd be a lot better ;)
It's foggy, I agree. My interpretation is that you don't get the beneficial secondary DC boost for using metamagiced spells, even if that metamagic is Heighten Spell. I don't think the RAW ever say you get such a bonus, and they probably would if it was intended. That's just my reading of the situation, though.
An empowered or heightened burning hands that takes up a 3rd level spell slot requires an ability score of 13 to cast. An empowered spell doesn't raise the spell DC while a heightened spell does, but the minimum ability score required to cast still increases. A caster that doesn't have the ability score of 10+X can't cast X-level spells, regardless of whether the spell is actually a lower level spell modified with a metamagic feat or a normal spell.
An empowered or heightened burning hands that takes up a 3rd level spell slot requires an ability score of 13 to cast. An empowered spell doesn't raise the spell DC while a heightened spell does, but the minimum ability score required to cast still increases. A caster that doesn't have the ability score of 10+X can't cast X-level spells, regardless of whether the spell is actually a lower level spell modified with a metamagic feat or a normal spell.
I know that all sounds logical, but can you back it up with a page citation or SRD reference to dispel my doubts once and for all? I know my players (well, player at the moment) will be interested in this development.