It's getting down to the wire for me starting my Savage Tide campaign adapted to Eberron, so I have to figure a few things out. Specifically I have a player who is interested in playing a very martial cleric (we have a Healer in the party so she'll probably focus on buffing and combat spells), and I was thinking the Church of the Whirling Fury might be a good fit. Based on the conversion notes I am treating the church as a heretical off shoot that combines Dol Arrah (LG Honor and Sacrifice) with The Fury (NE Passion and Madness). Their tenants, per the conversion notes, are the raw passion of The Fury drives her to battle evil.
So I am trying to figure out Domains and Favored weapon for the faith. I looked at the Domain lists for both and pulled some from each - specifically Glory, Good, Liberation, Passion, War, and Wrath. I'm pretty good with those. Where is breaks down is favored weapon.
The Fury's is the rapier and Dol Arrah's is the halberd - neither of which seem to really fit. I thought about the longsword, but the other martial deity already favors that one and I'd like to separate them a bit.
I was also thinking about the two bladed sword - I like the image of the priest literally whirling into combat, but it is an exotic weapon. With the War domain as a choice, it opens a new can of rules interpretation mess. Does the bonus weapon proficiency granted by the war domain extend to Exotic weapons? This particular one doesn't seem too unbalancing since it would take at least one other feat (Two-Weapon Fighting) to really make it worthwhile. I think the bastard sword, for instance, would be more problematic.
Finally, I thought about a Falchion. Somehow just seems to fit with the seafaring culture, and a religion full of righteous fury.
I think my favorite is the two-bladed sword. It might be giving a little bit of something for nothing (if they choose the War domain), but I think the penalties balance it fairly well. However, I'd like some second opinions. Is this too much? Does it deviate from the RAW too far? Is there another weapon I'm totally spacing on?
Thanks for everyone's help.
It's getting down to the wire for me starting my Savage Tide campaign adapted to Eberron, so I have to figure a few things out. Specifically I have a player who is interested in playing a very martial cleric (we have a Healer in the party so she'll probably focus on buffing and combat spells), and I was thinking the Church of the Whirling Fury might be a good fit. Based on the conversion notes I am treating the church as a heretical off shoot that combines Dol Arrah (LG Honor and Sacrifice) with The Fury (NE Passion and Madness). Their tenants, per the conversion notes, are the raw passion of The Fury drives her to battle evil.
So I am trying to figure out Domains and Favored weapon for the faith. I looked at the Domain lists for both and pulled some from each - specifically Glory, Good, Liberation, Passion, War, and Wrath. I'm pretty good with those. Where is breaks down is favored weapon.
The Fury's is the rapier and Dol Arrah's is the halberd - neither of which seem to really fit. I thought about the longsword, but the other martial deity already favors that one and I'd like to separate them a bit.
I was also thinking about the two bladed sword - I like the image of the priest literally whirling into combat, but it is an exotic weapon. With the War domain as a choice, it opens a new can of rules interpretation mess. Does the bonus weapon proficiency granted by the war domain extend to Exotic weapons? This particular one doesn't seem too unbalancing since it would take at least one other feat (Two-Weapon Fighting) to really make it worthwhile. I think the bastard sword, for instance, would be more problematic.
Finally, I thought about a Falchion. Somehow just seems to fit with the seafaring culture, and a religion full of righteous fury.
I think my favorite is the two-bladed sword. It might be giving a little bit of something for nothing (if they choose the War domain), but I think the penalties balance it fairly well. However, I'd like some second opinions. Is this too much?...
I'd go with two handed sword too, fits nicely with me also.
As for mechanics, its a renowned fact that TWF leaves a little too be desired and being a double weapon, the same applies!What I mean is grant them proficiency in its use, as a cleric with few feats and slightly worse BAB next to fighter, you will always be a very sub-optimal DBLWeapon fighter! So I can't see any game breaking issue with use of the weapon.
Personally I'd remove good and glory from the domains, don't seem to mesh quite as well for the smybiosis of the faiths.
Hope my ramble helps?
I didn't really like the Conversion Notes' fix for the Church of the Whirling Fury. Really, it's a matter of Keep It Simple, Stupid. Eberron already has a major organization that aggressively fights evil, and the Church of the Silver Flame has virtually no other presence in the Adventure Path. I'd replace the Whirling Fury affiliation with the Silver Flame before I pack Sasserine with yet another heretical Sovereign Host-Dark Six fusion.
I mean, there's nothing in the Eberron source materials suggesting that these fusion religions happen at all, what with the hatreds on both sides of the Schism, and Sasserine randomly has three of them? One is a neat idea, so I'll keep the Sovereign of Light and Darkness as a Unification Church that openly preaches commonality between the two factions, but the other two can be closer to the source standard. The Whirling Fury is, of course, the Silver Flame, and the Azure Cathedral is simply a temple to the Devourer, because the Dark Six are not stereotypical black hat gods and are perfectly valid objects of worship for PCs and NPCs alike.
Although I am quite unhappy with the conversion notes of late, too, I am going to stick with them. In the last third of STAP there might be an encounter with "the Whirling Fury" (Gwynharwyf). So I plan to explain this odd faith with a previous appearance of the celestial in Lamecha, resulting in her worship by the onlookers believing her to be Dol Arrah/the Fury.
I am not quite sure of the domains yet, but seriously think about making the favored weapon this double halberd from Secrets of Sarlona.
there's nothing in the Eberron source materials suggesting that these fusion religions happen at all
There actually is in Faiths of Eberron: Onatar and the Traveler.
Personally I'd remove good and glory from the domains, don't seem to mesh quite as well for the smybiosis of the faiths.
I'm a little on the fence about Glory, but I think Good works well from Keith Bakers description in the conversion notes
The Church of the Whirling Fury believes that Dol Arrah and the Fury are one and the same, that the raw passion of the Fury drives her in her battle against evil. (emphasis mine)
I think that makes it clear that the church actively fights evil which makes their acceptance of the Fury that much more bizarre.
There actually is in Faiths of Eberron: Onatar and the Traveler.
There is also mention of followers of The Three who worship Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn and The Mockery equally. Not exactly blending them, but giving each credence over the other Sovereigns.
I think that these combined religions are more an extension of Sasserine's "Old Sarlona" character. Given that there is evidence both the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six were once part of the same pantheon it makes since (to me at least) that the Schism happened after the migration to Khorvaire. I like the idea that it wasn't as fully successful in Sarlona, and some of that element came across the sea with the Sasserine settlers.
I am not quite sure of the domains yet, but seriously think about making the favored weapon this double halberd from Secrets of Sarlona.
The zulaat! Brilliant! I had completely forgotten about that weapon. I'm running with that.
Although I am quite unhappy with the conversion notes of late, too, I am going to stick with them. In the last third of STAP there might be an encounter with "the Whirling Fury" (Gwynharwyf). So I plan to explain this odd faith with a previous appearance of the celestial in Lamecha, resulting in her worship by the onlookers believing her to be Dol Arrah/the Fury.
I am not quite sure of the domains yet, but seriously think about making the favored weapon this double halberd from Secrets of Sarlona.
there's nothing in the Eberron source materials suggesting that these fusion religions happen at allThere actually is in Faiths of Eberron: Onatar and the Traveler.
All right, so there are a couple examples. It is implied that it is rare, however, so I have a hard time accepting three separate SH/DS fusions all in the same city, with no significant presence by the continent's dominant orthodox religion! Or any of the other highly flavorful religions exclusive to Eberron. I mean, between the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, the Undying Court, the Radiant Idols, the Path of Inspiration, and the Path of Light, you'd think at least ONE of these would have some sort of presence in the city, right?
And honestly, the Silver Flame is a near-perfect match for the Whirling Fury. The Whirling Fury is an organization of aggressive and evangelical do-gooders, and it was founded by and is supported by a type of Outsider rather than a deity. The Silver Flame is an organization of aggressive and evangelical do-gooders, and it was founded by and is supported by a type of Outsider rather than a deity. Really, dealing with the last third of the STAP is a matter of saying, "Okay, these outsiders are allies of the Coatl since the Age of Demons, and they are likely to be of help if you can convince them you have a chance of victory." Throw in a couple regular Coatl NPCs for flavor, and you're basically done.
Don't forget, having non-Native celestials running a religion in Sasserine means that they are Radiant Idols, so you're pretty much forced to diverge from the STAP at that point in any case. Might as well go with the simple solution, rather than a huge and confusing fusion Dol Arrah/Fury/Radiant Idol cult.
Creative Director
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One thing to keep in mind—more than any other affiliation, the Church of the Whirling Fury serves as foreshadowing for some stuff that happens in the last few adventures. If you make extensive changes to the church (such as removing Gwynharwyf and the eladrin presence from the church) you'll end up with a lot more work at converting things at the end. AND, if your players are long-time D&D fans, you'll accidently end up removing one of the cooler parts (in my opinion) of the adventure, where PCs get to interact with established D&D personas.
One thing to keep in mind—more than any other affiliation, the Church of the Whirling Fury serves as foreshadowing for some stuff that happens in the last few adventures. If you make extensive changes to the church (such as removing Gwynharwyf and the eladrin presence from the church) you'll end up with a lot more work at converting things at the end. AND, if your players are long-time D&D fans, you'll accidently end up removing one of the cooler parts (in my opinion) of the adventure, where PCs get to interact with established D&D personas.
Which means, basically, that SCAP really works best with the Greyhawk setting, because none of the established iconic personas exist in Eberron.
I have a hard time accepting three separate SH/DS fusions all in the same city, with no significant presence by the continent's dominant orthodox religion!
Again, from the conversion notes:
While the Sovereign of Light and Darkness is an exotic deity, the people of Sasserine also follow more traditional faiths. Dol Dorn takes the place of Kord. The followers of Olidammara revere the Traveler.... And the temple of Fharlagnhn becomes a general temple to the Sovereigns, especially Kol Korran, Boldrei, and Olladra. The Dawnhouse is dedicated to Dol Arrah. The Church of the Silver Flame takes the place of St. Cuthbert...
So most of the various temples are in fact fairly orthodox - it's just the Old Sarlona weirdness inherent in this particular city's background that allows for the more unusual faiths. At least, that's how I'm playing it.
So most of the various temples are in fact fairly orthodox - it's just the Old Sarlona weirdness inherent in this particular city's background that allows for the more unusual faiths. At least, that's how I'm playing it.
By the conversion notes, the significance of actual Eberron religions that exist in the source material is limited to a number on a map and two lines in the conversion notes. Meanwhile, these non-Eberron kludges get affiliations that pop up *constantly* throughout the adventure path.
It is my opinion that the affiliations should be altered to better fit the world the group wants to play in, rather than altering the world to fit the affiliations. Especially when it is as apparently easy as the Whirling Fury-Silver Flame.
James, bearing in mind your behind-the-scenes access to the later installations, and given that we want to play in Eberron more than we want to include any specific Greyhawk figures, do you think it is likely that making the Eladrin of the Whirling Fury into Native Outsiders will be a harder conversion than making them Radiant Idols, as the conversion notes seem to be suggesting?
I think that Eberron is a great setting and one of its strenghts is flexibility. There is as good as almost more than one way to explain why things are (or just seem) as they seem. :)
If you don't want D&D or Greyhawk celebrities in your game don't use or convert them.
If you do, go for it!
If it helps, in my game I made the Church of the Whirling Fury a religious offshoot of the Gatekeeper druidic sect. The Church revere the dragon Vvaraak, who first taught the Gatekeepers the mysteries of druidic magic, as a deity, and they follow a more cleric-based faith rather than the Gatekeepers' druidic path, though they share the Gatekeepers' calling to defend Eberron from unnatural and extraplanar threats.
I did this partly because I don't know much about Eladrins, and felt more comfortable putting a dragon in that place.
That sounds like a good alternative to the conversion notes, too. Especially if one of the PCs is interested in going Gatekeeper.
Although I am quite unhappy with the conversion notes of late, too, I am going to stick with them. In the last third of STAP there might be an encounter with "the Whirling Fury" (Gwynharwyf). So I plan to explain this odd faith with a previous appearance of the celestial in Lamecha, resulting in her worship by the onlookers believing her to be Dol Arrah/the Fury.
So the player I was thinking might go for this went for it. I have a cleric of the Church of the Whirling Fury in my Eberron party. I'm running with Aureus's idea that Gwynharwyf manifested in Lamecha long ago fighting some great evil, and superstitious humans who witnessed the battle took her for a god. I don't have the Book of Exalted Deeds, so I don't know too much about the "official" Gwynharwyf. However, I want to keep the feel of the church as close to D&D cannon as Eberron's cosmology will allow. Looking ahead to the later parts of the AP, what can I seed in early in the campaign that can pay off later? In broad terms, how will this church pay off later so I don't do anything too damaging up front.
I'm sure most of this can't really be answered, but any help is greatly appreciated.
And Aureus - thanks for pointing me toward the zulaat from Secrets of Sarlona. My player thought that was awesome.
However, I want to keep the feel of the church as close to D&D cannon as Eberron's cosmology will allow. Looking ahead to the later parts of the AP, what can I seed in early in the campaign that can pay off later? In broad terms, how will this church pay off later so I don't do anything too damaging up front.
I'm sure most of this can't really be answered, but any help is greatly appreciated.
I just have to second all this.
SPOILERS TO FOLLOW!
Any time FilmGuy and as we had something similar to a TPK last session we are in the same or (again) similar boat. A player of mine wants to make a cleric of Dol Arrah and is somehow interested in the Church, but not an affiliated member yet. Perhaps Vesserin Catherly, Jakara or Rissashtak can convert her to their cause.
Would you rule that she becomes a fallen priest or just let her discover that there is a darker side of Dol Arrah?
Anyway she hasn't figured out a prestige class yet and I am looking for any suggestions here. It should have FULL spellprogresseion.
Thanks in advance
