My players are complaining at the lack of "uber lewts" and we're in Drakthar's way. I think they are definately UNDER npc value for the equivalent level but frankly I'm not wanting them to be rich enough to really power-up with magic items. The party paladin has the ancestral relic feat so that will help him out but the rest complain even though I suggest taking item creation feats.
I made the mistake upon character creation of allowing the players to roll dice for their scores (4d6 drop the lowest) 3 sets and keep the set they wanted. As a result of this I have pcs with multiple 18's, point buy equivalents near 60! Plus I'm dealing with some SERIOUS powergamers and I'm just trying to keep it manageable. But I don't want the players to lose interst either.
Are your pcs complaining about the treasure amounts?
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Are your pcs complaining about the treasure amounts?
I havent started running the SCAP yet; but I've been reading it. I have thought that there wasnt a lot of treasure, but just not sure without actually playing yet.
on the other hand, dont forget that they're players, and its in their nature to complain :-)
You could give them a million gps and they'd complain it was gold and not platinum!
Robert
Are your pcs complaining about the treasure amounts?
I havent started running the SCAP yet; but I've been reading it. I have thought that there wasnt a lot of treasure, but just not sure without actually playing yet.
on the other hand, dont forget that they're players, and its in their nature to complain :-)
You could give them a million gps and they'd complain it was gold and not platinum!
Robert
Yeah, I notice that the players have the "platinum" attitude. Wait until they get Drakthar's hoard of 69K coppers.
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It depends on if they really take the time to loot and plunder. Jzadirune has a lot of wealth if they find it and take it all. As does Malachite. Smart players will empty the trash out of some of the chests and fill them with more valuable coins on their way out of Malachite/Jzadirune.
It seems to be similar later on, all the good stuff like Alakast is hidden.
I found my players had plenty of items (some looted, some bought at Skies) untill a couple of weeks ago when we started Foundation of Flame. It seemed that the best equipment they had was Coldburn (greatsword from Lords of Oblivion) and a suit of +3 full plate (which I put in for them).
I reckon the first half of the campaign is fine, but after about level 13 they seem underpowered. There is a lot of money about though, but with Cauldron only being a small city there arent supposed to be many high power items about.
Also, there is pretty much no loot in Foundation of Flame at all. My players seem a little underpowered going into Thirteen Cages.
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I found my players had plenty of items (some looted, some bought at Skies) untill a couple of weeks ago when we started Foundation of Flame. It seemed that the best equipment they had was Coldburn (greatsword from Lords of Oblivion) and a suit of +3 full plate (which I put in for them).
I reckon the first half of the campaign is fine, but after about level 13 they seem underpowered. There is a lot of money about though, but with Cauldron only being a small city there arent supposed to be many high power items about.
Also, there is pretty much no loot in Foundation of Flame at all. My players seem a little underpowered going into Thirteen Cages.
As I said, these were all suspicions I had as I read it. I am appreciative you all have been forthright in your info: this way I can plan a little groundwork to ensure the PCs in my game aren't so deprived of magic/treasure.
Robert
Yeah, well just be careful when you add things. I gave the party some items as gifts from High Inquisitor Shebeleth, three of which were perfectly acceptable. Boots of Elvenkind, Large Steel Shield +1, Morning Star +1, Defender.
Then I gave the sorcerer a Wand of Scorching Ray.
BAD DM! BAD! Tongueater, the T-Rex skellie, the ogre zombies...all of them reduced to smoking ruin by that evil, evil wand.
Never give an eleven year old a Scorchy Wand.
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Yeah, well just be careful when you add things. I gave the party some items as gifts from High Inquisitor Shebeleth, three of which were perfectly acceptable. Boots of Elvenkind, Large Steel Shield +1, Morning Star +1, Defender.
Then I gave the sorcerer a Wand of Scorching Ray.
BAD DM! BAD! Tongueater, the T-Rex skellie, the ogre zombies...all of them reduced to smoking ruin by that evil, evil wand.
Never give an eleven year old a Scorchy Wand.
LOL well wands can always be reduced in its effectiveness by making it minimum level for it, and/or greatly limiting the amount of charges it has.
Robert
LOL well wands can always be reduced in its effectiveness by making it minimum level for it, and/or greatly limiting the amount of charges it has.
Robert
Yeah...I'm thinking that now that he's used nearly twenty charges, there's going to be an element of 'randomness' introduced to the wand. After all, it DID come from a cleric of Adimarchus...
I am so going to make them want Shebeleth's head on a pole before too long...
My players griped about it, too, so I did an audit and found they were about 20K too low at 7th level (about 1/2 way through ZT). I thought that was off by a lot and I'm not sure the reason. I made the monetary correction in the rest of the dungeon and, since then they have been level appropriate.
I wonder if some of the problem is that the magic items may be worth X but can only be sold for .5X. Since they haven't been able to use some of the items, selling means a loss over time.
Dedekind.
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I wonder if some of the problem is that the magic items may be worth X but can only be sold for .5X. Since they haven't been able to use some of the items, selling means a loss over time.
Dedekind.
This is no doubt a big part of it. To respond I have two things of note:
1) the fact that they cant use the items and then must sell them is understandable, but one of the features of 3rd edition that I'm not a big fan of is the propesity for PCs to eagerly go and sell magical treasure. The magic item crafting rules are a great addition to the game in 3rd edition, but it does illicit these actions. Gone are the days of PCs finding a way to use every magic item they find. Thanks to the love of playing RPGs on computers/Playstations, the ideas of magic item shops are expected in most games now. Personally I try to make it very difficult for the PCs to buy and sell magic items. I would rather they use what they find. Theres an element to the game that illicits such wonder when they realize that the jug they're been carrying actually creates an open portal to the plane of water (Decanter of Endless Water). Many times in 3rd edition I've heard, "Hey thats kinda cool; but who needs it - I'm going to sell it so that I can add Flaming on my sword"
2) If you read ahead and see that an item flat out cannot be used by anyone in the party, think about replacing it for an equally valuable item that they can use.
If you make it hard to sell items, or make it very unprofitable to where its pointless to sell, they may realize its better to hold on to it and find a reason to use it.
Skie, "I'm sorry, I cannot afford to pay you what it's worth right now: business is slow, I havent sold an item in three weeks; taxes are increasing and I fear my shop is being taxed out from under me. The best I can do is 20% of market value; especially since I dont anticipate that being a sought after item and will most likely sit in my inventory for months; I'm currently trying to liquidate my stock to be able to afford these taxes and pay back the loan that I still owe on the shop."
Now dont get me wrong: I am not suggesting that I prefer keeping the players downtrodden with low magic. Instead I provide a little more than they need or should have, thus providing them with enough magic that they can and will use to be equal to their gp/level amount.
Superfluous items make very little profit to them, so they have to really not want something to get rid of it. Again, I prefer the atmosphere where magic is more random and wondrous - not so easily classified, packaged, and numbered.
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I have done the following in my campaign:
Because the group has rescued Coryston Pike in the first installment, they are able to "mail order" specific Magic Items. They are going to be created in Sasserine and shipped to Cauldron (which is 200 miles from Sasserine in my campaign). It takes a long time for the items to arrive (normally one adventure), that way they do not have the immediate bonus of the item. It also limits the amount of items bought.
The group finds enough loot and money to buy themselves the equipment they need/want.
I have done the following in my campaign:
Because the group has rescued Coryston Pike in the first installment, they are able to "mail order" specific Magic Items. They are going to be created in Sasserine and shipped to Cauldron (which is 200 miles from Sasserine in my campaign). It takes a long time for the items to arrive (normally one adventure), that way they do not have the immediate bonus of the item. It also limits the amount of items bought.
The group finds enough loot and money to buy themselves the equipment they need/want.
That is exactly what happened in my campaign as well. My recommendation is you continue maintain a very tight control on gp and items. If they are experienced / power gamers this will give them something new and teach them to get the most out of the PC's, may be even take the less uber feat they never planned on during their build. The campaign should shape the party a little.
I've done similar for my magic items. Anything up to a certain amount can be gotten from Sasserine but it takes an additional 10-15 days to get it.
As for making it difficult (or easy) to get magic items, my group has come to a consensus that we don't care as long as the party is roughly balanced. We have been playing together for a long time and we don't find the economics of magic items (or any other D&D economics) any fun. Therefore, they can always sell their items at half price, they can always buy items at full price, and the DM makes sure they have no more and no less money then they should. Once they have plane shift, they can go places where +5 vorpal greatswords can be easily had (e.g., Mt. Clangedin), so it just saves some trouble.
Certainly, this ruins some of the verisimilitude of Cauldron. But its our preference and saves us some aggravation.
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I've done similar for my magic items. Anything up to a certain amount can be gotten from Sasserine but it takes an additional 10-15 days to get it.
As for making it difficult (or easy) to get magic items, my group has come to a consensus that we don't care as long as the party is roughly balanced. We have been playing together for a long time and we don't find the economics of magic items (or any other D&D economics) any fun. Therefore, they can always sell their items at half price, they can always buy items at full price, and the DM makes sure they have no more and no less money then they should. Once they have plane shift, they can go places where +5 vorpal greatswords can be easily had (e.g., Mt. Clangedin), so it just saves some trouble.
Certainly, this ruins some of the verisimilitude of Cauldron. But its our preference and saves us some aggravation.
This is quite acceptable; its a fair and easy system to adjudicate.
For some of us in my game: me especially, its not necessarily the verisimilitude (or lack there-of) that I try to maintain; its the flavor and fun of exploration and discovery that plays into the act of finding a new magic item and finding a way and reason to utiliaze its powers creatively that gives me pause when considering making "magic shops" so prevalent and easy to use.
I agree there's a lot to be said about making things easy and lest just play ball; but different elements to different people are not worth compromising; this is one of those for me.
Robert
I found the loot levels low but this is more because my group doesn't have a rogue so miss some of the hidden stuff (they never found Alakast for example) and they don't completely clear dungones. They do the mission then leave.
To compensate I have given each one a legacy item plus a few other odds and ends. Worked out well.