I've ended up with a party of 6 PCs in a gestalt campaign (I was only expecting 3...). Everyone is 1st level at the moment, but that will change soon. 5 of the Players are essentially "combat whores" and their PCs reflect this. #6 doesn't really care and just likes to play - heavy combat if that's what the party wants, but she's cool with diplomacy, intrigue, and the like as well. Here's a breakdown of what I'm looking at:
Human Shaman/Scout
Halfling Rogue/Ranger (FE: Orcs)
Elf Druid/Ranger (FE: Orcs)
Elf Samurai/Swordsage
Half-Elf Fighter(variant)/Warlock
Dwarf Crusader/Cleric
Now, most of them used a 32-point-buy and a couple of them took flaws and extra feats. Yeah - the power-level is running towards the obscene, but I've not yet established conditions proper to let them *really* strut their stuff. They've hit an ambush - giant spiders with an ettercap - and staged one of their own - a group of sleeping Orcs. They are now clearing out an old temple that is infested with giant spiders and Aranea (who have stolen an eggsac from an Awakened giant spider queen. Once they do, after fighting some Large Giant Spiders and a few Aranea, they'll set off to return the eggsac and encounter an *awake* Orc warband!
First, what ECL should these nuts routinely handle?
Second, how the HECK do I make an Aranea a gestalt?? At least one of them should be a Fighter/Sorcerer combo for the epic 1st-level Final Smackdown!
Third, by the time they hit the Orcs, they'll be second level. Here's what I am looking at having them ecounter:
1x Bugbear Scout/Warlock 3
2x Orc Sergeants (Ranger/Fighter 3 and Wizard/Rogue 3)
2x Orc Warbands (approx 4-6 typical War1 Orcs)
Would this be a reasonable force for a group of 6 gestalt PCs to take on? Should I up it a bit, like add another Warband and Sergeant? The gestalt NPCs would be built on a 32-point-buy system, similar to the PCs and most likely equipped with Bonded Items (magic that can't be looted!). (In all fairness, the Orcs aren't the source of the treasure, returning the eggsac gains them the Queen's favor and she gives them access to the colony's "man-trash" which will include a number of nifty items, incl. a Daisho set for the Samurai, so I'm not stiffing them on this deal!)
So - any suggestions on tweaks or approaches? I gotta hurry on this, because I need to be ready w/ it all by 2pm Sunday!!
Human Shaman/Scout
Halfling Rogue/Ranger (FE: Orcs)
Elf Druid/Ranger (FE: Orcs)
Elf Samurai/Swordsage
Half-Elf Fighter(variant)/Warlock
Dwarf Crusader/Cleric
Okay, well, from looking at this:
Each character has a minimum of a d8 hit die, and most of them have a +1 base attack. Will saves are a strong point for this group, and their Fort saves aren't too bad, either.
As I see it, gestalted characters aren't especially tougher than normal characters (hp-wise), so you'll want to send more monsters at them rather than more powerful monsters.
As for your gestalted aranea, that's one of the reasons I avoid gestalting. I recommend gestalting its racial hit dice with fighter levels (since it already has sorcerer spellcasting), then adding fighter/sorcerer levels as you need them. Which you shouldn't, if you're using this as a 1st level boss. So, essentially, just give it two fighter feats and add the elite array. I highly recommend giving it a +4 boost to its Charisma since your group's Will saves are all good.
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Hi,
I can't contribute to a solution, but I have a question of my own: What is a "Gestalt" character?
I am slightly confused because this expression seems to have a different meaning in english/ english D&D 3.5 than in german.
Could someone explain the D&D meaning?
Thanks in advance!
Greetings,
Günther
P.S.
Gestalt (german) = the stature/ figure/ shape
gestalten (german) = to shape/ to form
A reasonable definition of gestalt is difficult in English, as it is a highly abstract concept in a way. I have read at least a dozen different definitions. As I understand it best, it means something that is defined as a whole by its parts. It is a term mainly used in weather (to describe big weather systems) and psychology/biology.
In D&D, gestalt is simply a way to describe a character which is created (shaped?) of two classes simultaneously, being a sum of two parts that is defined by the combination of the two parts, rather than a single core class or being modular as in the case of multiclassing. It uses the most favorable of the two for hp, saves, etc. I have yet to play or DM gestalt, but my interest is piqued.
As with the previous poster, I recommend adding more, not more powerful adversaries, as especially with orcs, the survivors of an orc encounter can always flee in terror as their numbers dwindle, or call for reinforcements if the party is trouncing them. It is up to you to balance it elegantly within game while you suss out the subtleties of a 6 player gestalt campaign. eventually you will get a sense of where they really sit in regards to the CR of their opponents.
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(...) In D&D, gestalt is simply a way to describe a character which is created (shaped?) of two classes simultaneously, being a sum of two parts that is defined by the combination of the two parts, rather than a single core class or being modular as in the case of multiclassing. It uses the most favorable of the two for hp, saves, etc. I have yet to play or DM gestalt, but my interest is piqued.
Hello ZeroCharisma,
thanks for your information. So if I understand you correctly, "Gestalt" characters are mini-maxed multiclass characters.
As with the previous poster, I recommend adding more, not more powerful adversaries, as especially with orcs, the survivors of an orc encounter can always flee in terror as their numbers dwindle, or call for reinforcements if the party is trouncing them. It is up to you to balance it elegantly within game while you suss out the subtleties of a 6 player gestalt campaign. eventually you will get a sense of where they really sit in regards to the CR of their opponents.
The WotC article Save My Game: PCs With Excessive Firepower might be of interest. The short version:
1. Were you too generous as a DM (not exactly applicable here)2. Challenge players in other ways than combat
3. Don't play to characters strengths
4. Use monsters with advantages, not stuff
5. Whatever You Do, DON'T Throw High-Powered NPCs at Them
6. Disallow the Frenzied Berserker Prestige Class
#4 encourages the use of high power monsters over masses of low level critter. Players wouldn't exactly realize that they meet levelled up orcs, would they? (at least not if the orcs had "typical" levels like barbarian, fighter, or scout).
I agree with the article authour, though, that clever use of NPCs is preferrable. Even goblins can be a threat when using traps and environmental advantages.
Greetings,
Günther
I am in complete agreement, Guennarr! I like the points the article makes though; the last one made me smile broadly...
I recently terrorized my players (who had 5 level 9 characters) with a party of 3 fifth level NPC's (a fighter, a rogue & a cleric) and a CR 3 Rust dragon wyrmling. After that, they had to fight their way through a dungeon filled with leveled Kobolds (Rogue/Sorcs and Fighter/Bards, mostly, but including a particularly lethal 6th level half fiend Kobold Rogue/Assassin)
The dungeon was, admittedly, designed to enhance and showcase the advantages of the Kobolds. but it was also a challenge because even after the third or fourth encounter, they were still underestimating the little critters.
In the case above, I recommend(ed) adding more fodder because the DM is still learning to adjust to what is obviously a very powerful party for its average level (a level 1 gestalt fighter/rogue is still a level 1 character)and were I in the same situation, I would play around with it too, to find a balance. You can always make some orcs run away, but you can't take away a special ability such as DR in the middle of a combat.
I also make a point of never relying on items to make a creature more powerful, except in the case of NPC's where the items they use against the party are part of the treasure (what's left after the fight anyway ;) ).
Excellent dialogue, Guennarr/Gunther. Thanks for the input and the info.
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Thanks for the compliment, but I just posted the link. ;-)
Btw. my DM's favourite monsters are levelled up koblds (no joke).
On the other hand my original group had a different experience. They "stumbled" over a group of four kobolds during dungeoneering and were utterly disoriented. I should mention that they were total D&D newbies by then. They pressed the kobolds into guiding them and never thought twice about whether or not these small guys were "bad guys"... They'd not only underestimate hostile kobolds when meeting some in future encounters. ;-)
Misleading players is another guarantee for nasty surprises (even for powerful players). Bad guys can also use "vile tricks" like blackmailing, caballing, and spreading misinformation... (i.e. working from behind the scenes and making the PCs spend their strength on proxies or uninvolved people -> can be strenuous and boring for players if the big evil guy is out of reach for too long).
As a sidenote "Races of Dragon" sported a nice selection of enhancements especially suited for kobolds.
Greetings,
Günther
P.S. Guennarr is just my user name in here.
The gestalt mechanic is an interesting one although the min/maxing description might be a bit off base. The full description of the gestalt mechanic is in Unearthed Arcana and it works like this: take 2 character classes: anytime features overlap, you take the better of the 2. For instance, a fighter/bard gestalt would have the d10 HD, good BAB and a good Fort save from fighter and good Reflex and Will saves from bard and 6+Int mod skill points per level, plus fighter bonus feats and bard abilities and spells. If you have a gestalt of 2 casting classes even if they are both arcane classes or both divine classes keep the spellcasting abilities separate. If the 2 classes have a class feature in common say animal companion for ranger and druid it accrues at the rate of the faster class; evasion and uncanny dodge are other examples. Also, the skills listed as class skills for either class are considered class skills for a gestalt. So for the fighter/bard example, Ride and Speak Language would both be considered class skills (Ride from fighter, Speak Lamguage from bard)
Making the Aranea a gestalt use the monster class from Savage Species and levels in a normal class and then once the Aranea progression is done add a second base class. Apply this to any significant monster with an INT of 3+ in the campaign
As I see it, gestalted characters aren't especially tougher than normal characters (hp-wise), so you'll want to send more monsters at them rather than more powerful monsters.
I'd want to be careful with this, though I do agree with the advice to a significant extent. The catch is that the XP awarded for killing creatures of lower CR does not really scale up with the characters as they gain in level. So an orc is worth 150 XP for a 1st level and a 6th level character. Sure a 6th level character needs more XP but 4 1st level characters have a hard time with 8 orcs while 4 6th level characters can blast 100 orcs apart with little or no danger - 100 orcs is worth 15,000 XP. An extreme example but it holds true for lesser numbers of slightly more powerful monsters. 10 Ogres is still no real threat to a party of 6 6th level characters and are worth a bunch of XP. The CR 9 Dragon is a threat and is worth less XP. Essentially lots of monsters that are individually easier generally poses less total danger to the PCs and is actually worth more XP. There is a balance to this to some extent as the bad guys need enough allies to keep the PCs occupied or they get mobbed but past a point its just not that helpful and it really hands out the XP - the players will start sky rocketing up levels.
I've ended up with a party of 6 PCs in a gestalt campaign (I was only expecting 3...). Everyone is 1st level at the moment, but that will change soon. 5 of the Players are essentially "combat whores" and their PCs reflect this. #6 doesn't really care and just likes to play - heavy combat if that's what the party wants, but she's cool with diplomacy, intrigue, and the like as well. Here's a breakdown of what I'm looking at:
Honestly - I'd stop this before it turns into madness. Your players won't ever thank you but your honestly doing them a favour. When you only have 3 players then Gestalt is not a bad idea. There is a player shortage and this group can't even cover the 4 required bases of a PC party. But now you have 6 players and they will be a tough lot to satisfy if they are just single classed. If you keep down the Gestalt route you'll find their power level ramps up phenomenally as they gain levels and it will be harder and harder for you to find good combat encounters that challenge them without overwhelming them. Your going to loose out on lots of the interesting low end monsters as they will ramp up in power so quickly that they will tend to go almost straight from Orcs to smaller dragons missing out on neat monsters like Carrion Crawlers and Owlbears.
I'd stop the madness while its still really early in the campaign and it can be stopped with only a little whining before you get to the point where even the players think their characters are broken but they can't bear to give them up. Down this road potentially lies a campaign that falls apart because the system got strained beyond what it could handle. The slight disruption now is better then possibly loosing everything later. Really 6 gestalted 12th level characters are going to be truly obscene in terms of power level - no DM should have to try and handle that kind of a party and it will lead to really rapid and highly unbalanced encounters. They will be able to pump out phenomenal punishment but won't be able to take it – to challenge them you'll find yourself using very powerful creatures – which they will be able to kill with phenomenal speed – but if the monster does manage to go twice then it will nearly automatically kill one of them. Its semi-balanced but not in a good way. Combats should be, ideally, 3-6 rounds of tense fighting not a contest between two eggshells armed with sledge hammers.
I'm starting a campaign on Sunday, Gestalt. I assume I wont have much to worry about in these two getting way overpowered like a 6 man?
I would not think so - not with just two or three PCs.