My first experience with these feats was as a player when the wizard (a munchkin) in the party cast a shocking grasp with sudden maximize and then rolled and confirmed a critical hit. The damage was astounding and made me take a closer look at the feats. As a player, I know how difficult it can be to sacrifice those few high level spell slots for a lower level spell with a metamagic feat applied to it, and since they're usable once a day, they wouldn't stomp through every encounter with them. So I allowed them in my games.
Then I noticed that every spellcaster was grabbing up Sudden Maximize as soon as they could. Two guys had their cleric and warmage grab it at first level. The prerequisite is only one other metamagic feat. It still wasn't ruining the whole game, just the encounter where the feat was applied. The fact that the feat was becoming a mandatory choice told me something was wrong.
I found these problems:
A character can use a particular sudden metamagic feat only once. So what? How often will a character use the regular metamagic feat? Given that higher level spells tend to be better overall, they won't all get dropped for a plethora of still spells.
Then there is the factor of the higher level spell slot. They don't just make the feat application the sacrifice of a higher level slot. They make it impossible to apply a metamagic feat to the higher level spells. Don't expect a maximized meteor swarm anytime soon. But the sudden feats take that away.
The biggest issue I had was the "good for the gander" test. If I gave this feat to a creature what would happen. One party I DM for is 5th and 6th level. There is a 10th level adept (CR 5) in the adventure with access to lightning bolt, his highest level spell. At 10d6 it's dangerous to 5th level characters. If I switched his feats so that he had Sudden Maximize it's almost a definate TPK. Noe of the characters can take 60 points of damage, and half will drop if they save for 30.
While the adept fight would be a nice "in your face" moment, it wouldn't be fun for everbody. My solution has been to create a house rule. The feats work as written except:
A sudden metamagic feat can only be applied to a spell "x" levels lower than the highest level spell the character could cast. Where "x" is the modified level of the regular metamagic feat. For example, Maximize Spell requires a slot 3 levels higher. So a 7th level wizard could use Sudden Maximize on any 0 or 1st level spell, without using a higher level slot or with any increased casting time.
What do you guys think?
The biggest issue I had was the "good for the gander" test. If I gave this feat to a creature what would happen. One party I DM for is 5th and 6th level. There is a 10th level adept (CR 5) in the adventure with access to lightning bolt, his highest level spell. At 10d6 it's dangerous to 5th level characters. If I switched his feats so that he had Sudden Maximize it's almost a definate TPK. Noe of the characters can take 60 points of damage, and half will drop if they save for 30.
Er... a 10th level adept is, by default, a CR 9 NPC. You don't halve NPC levels to get CR, you only subtract 1. So this NPC would be highly dangerous regardless of sudden metamagic feats. Try sudden maximize in the hands of a 6th level adept. It's still dangerous, but not nearly an instant TPK in most cases. Also, how often do your PCs end up all standing in a line? I suppose an NPC with access to lightning bolt as his biggest damage dealer would attempt to get his foes lined up, but if you're forcing the PCs into that situation, they can't really be blamed for the result.
TK
I apologize for my lack of knowledge but where are Sudden Metamagic feats from?
I apologize for my lack of knowledge but where are Sudden Metamagic feats from?
Predominantly Complete Arcane, and only Complete Arcane unless I'm missing something. (I haven't read over the Complete Divine, completely yet...complete.)
Yeah, well, our 6th level fighters (well mine was a fighter/urban ranger), cleric and rogue went up against a wizard with access to both Lightening Bolt and Fireball- and without the sudden feats, and we almost lost the cleric. But then we use Armor as Damage reduction in a low magic setting- so halved HD and no adjustment to magic...so surprisingly enough he didn't school all our butts (well, we did have a backup cleric/noncombatant)...and us fighters, mostly me, tried sundering the wizard's staff...smart idea as long as we could take the damage that resulted in sundering a magic item.
So yes, be careful with that 10th Level Adept...as Thanis says, that encounter could be lethal, as you noted yourself.
In spite of the lethality, I wouldn't hesitate to give an NPC a sudden metamagic feat...though I don't see how adjusting these feats would actually do your players or the npcs any good.
Yes, they can be nasty, no I don't think they're over powered. preparing a spell at 3 levels or so higher than normal is a costly enough proposistion limiting FURTHER what spells could POSSIBLY be cast is a very costly proposistion...if your players ever NEED a sudden maximized Fireball, and they will...then they won't have it as likely. That being said, their opponents won't either, so it is your call, but I'd say it is "...good for the gander..."
It's nice to have an ace in the hole with your NPCs, be they friendly or Foe, your pcs shouldn't ever be 100% prepared for what they're up against. A cleric who sheds his armor in battle- only to have a frustratingly high AC, a ranger who can REBUKE undead...these are npcs I'm using and will love when the PCs encounter their "special" abilities. (naturally the ranger was a ranger 1/cleric 3, but as far as the guy who's life now belongs to the NPC, he's a ranger who might have had something to do with the ghouls fighting each other, though I'll try to chalk that up as them fighting over who gets to eat the paralysed PC as far as the PC's perceptions go. The other surprise is when the players do figure out he's a cleric and instead of healing a fallen foe, he inflicts wounds on them, which could be nasty as hell if it is an undead creature, but if it is an intelligent undead creature that could mean further interogation)
What's stopping you from giving spellcasters a leg up like the players get from feat selection?
But yeah, make sure the NPCs are still fairly balanced with the encounter level that should arise for your players. I've experimented with Overpowering encounters, but I can get away with that, I'm running Ghostwalk, if anyone dies (and someone actually HAD to die so that they could willingly play...) they can comeback as a ghost, as my monk did on his own request. And Raise Dead is cheaper in Manifest.
sudden metamagic is not a problem, you can get the same thing with metamagic rods. If a player is ready to burn a feat instead of buying an item which can do the same 3 times per day, i would say ok.
At high levels, and if you don't fight people or monsters protected against negative energy, there are more scary things.
Try quickened+twinned+maximized enervation + twinned+maximized+empowered enervation. You opponent gains 16+1d4 negative levels/HD in one round. You just need a rod of twin spell and a rod of maximize to do it at 13th level.
Pure wickedness. I'll forward that one to the Guest Player for my True Necromancer, muahahaha.
Er... a 10th level adept is, by default, a CR 9 NPC. You don't halve NPC levels to get CR, you only subtract 1. So this NPC would be highly dangerous regardless of sudden metamagic feats. Try sudden maximize in the hands of a 6th level adept. It's still dangerous, but not nearly an instant TPK in most cases. Also, how often do your PCs end up all standing in a line? I suppose an NPC with access to lightning bolt as his biggest damage dealer would attempt to get his foes lined up, but if you're forcing the PCs into that situation, they can't really be blamed for the result.
TK
Thanks!! The adventure is 3.0 and from a 3rd party company, and I didn't bother to check. The encounter does actually happen at the end of a long narrow hallway and the npc has darkvision so lining them up isn't a problem.
After some more thought, especially the reminder of the rods, I think I'm going to leave the feats alone.
Thanks again.
Strangely enough, the NPC class CR system also applies to Commoners, so a level 5 Commoner is ranked at CR 4, which is a load, to be truthful. However, it's really not something that comes into play enough to think about what the real advancement of Commoners' CRs should be. Just thought I'd point it out.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Try quickened+twinned+maximized enervation + twinned+maximized+empowered enervation. You opponent gains 16+1d4 negative levels/HD in one round. You just need a rod of twin spell and a rod of maximize to do it at 13th level.
Higher than that - you can't use two rods on one spell. Quickened enervation is already 8th level, so not usable until 15th, and putting another feat on it makes it epic level.
Combos always need to be checked for legality - several of the "broken" ones I've seen are actually impossible.
Russ
PathFinder Sudden Metamagic
Paizos general exclusion of sudden feats is for fans of the spontaneous cast a strike to the heart. Being aware that these feats in their original form were quite strong,
i tried to come up with a solution that doesnt kill game balance and still looks attractive for the
sorc/bard/oracle etc.
A sudden modification may be decided at the time of casting, but only if the caster has currently 0% arcane spell failure.
Sudden Feats may only be used by spontaneous casters, in case of Multiclass-Casters only for the spontaneous Slots.
In general all sudden modifications to a spell may be used 1/day/3sudden-feats with a max.mod.limit of 2 meta-feats per spell cast. Each individual sudden feat may be used only twice a day no matter how many sudden feats you know. You may not use the same feat twice on the same spell beeing cast.
Example1: if u have 1-2 sudden feats you may cast 1x a spell with 1 modification
Example2: 5 sudden Feats -> 1x2modifications + 2x1modification or
Example3: 7 sudden Feats including Overload -> 1x3modifications
If a class-feature grants you a specific or general Meta-Feat you may substitute that one for a Sudden-Feat but only for your spontaneous Spellslots.
The feats below are a reference to the original Metafeats by Paizo except as noted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------
FEATS:
-preqs:
-description:
Silent/Still/Merciful/Bouncing/Disruptive/Elemental*/Focused/Lingering/Inte nsified/Selective/Enlarge/Extend:
Min.CL: 5
-slot increase none
Ectoplasmic/Persistent/Sickening/Thundering/Heighten/:
Min.Cl:7
1 sudden-feat
-slot increase X +1 "or in case of Heighten-Spell the actual Spelllevel"
Dazing/Reach/Widen/Empower/:
Min.Cl:9
2 sudden-feats
-slot increase X + 2
Quicken/Maximise:
Min.Cl:11
3 sudden-feats
-slot increase X + 3
Sudden-Overload:
Min.Cl 13
4 sudden-feats
Once a day you may load a up a spell with as many different sudden-feats as you know limited only by increase in spellslots you must provide.
Usage of this feat eats up all sudden usages for that day. You are fatigued for minutes/spellslots used.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------
*If the caster gains benefits through other means for using a certain elemental-type he can apply those benefits to the spell as well.
========================================================================
Fire away folks :-)
I listen to reason not to spam
Er... a 10th level adept is, by default, a CR 9 NPC. You don't halve NPC levels to get CR, you only subtract 1. So this NPC would be highly dangerous regardless of sudden metamagic feats. Try sudden maximize in the hands of a 6th level adept. It's still dangerous, but not nearly an instant TPK in most cases. Also, how often do your PCs end up all standing in a line? I suppose an NPC with access to lightning bolt as his biggest damage dealer would attempt to get his foes lined up, but if you're forcing the PCs into that situation, they can't really be blamed for the result.
TK
Thanks!! The adventure is 3.0 and from a 3rd party company, and I didn't bother to check. The encounter does actually happen at the end of a long narrow hallway and the npc has darkvision so lining them up isn't a problem.
After some more thought, especially the reminder of the rods, I think I'm going to leave the feats alone.
Thanks again.
The challenge IMG has been how to limit stacking sudden metamagic on a single spell. Even once a day a a max/empowered fireball is a scary nuke.
true
and what Clv would that sorc have to be to cast that?
;-)
jep lv 16 since its an 8th lv slot
by that time up against enemies who either laugh about the DC or are able to tank through that
stacking the feats is however a good point of adjustment
thx
My 2c.p. on the subject are simply this.
When you absolutly HAVE to get the kill shot to save yourself AND the party sudden feats are the way to go.
I have had too many experiances where the party fighter was almost dead the rest of the party was unconcious or dieing and my spellcaster HAD to drop the bad guy.
Plus think about the metamagic rods like was previously mentioned they work 3X compared to once.
The meta feats were originally pesented in the Miniatures handbook as a way to put meta feats within reach of lower level casters.
Exactly, low lv casters benefiot from it, especially all the Tier1 feats i listed make a great toolbox for situations that require that certain. +DC or the scorching ray in lightning form against a cheliaxian low devil horde ^^
I'd like to see an official comment or more in general if possible.
My 2c.p. on the subject are simply this.
When you absolutly HAVE to get the kill shot to save yourself AND the party sudden feats are the way to go.
I have had too many experiances where the party fighter was almost dead the rest of the party was unconcious or dieing and my spellcaster HAD to drop the bad guy.
Plus think about the metamagic rods like was previously mentioned they work 3X compared to once.
The meta feats were originally pesented in the Miniatures handbook as a way to put meta feats within reach of lower level casters.
It also helped sorcerers and other spontaneous casters.