When one of my players agreed to take the helm and DM the Savage Tide, I was delighted at the chance to play. I determoned I wanted to play a Swashbuckler-type character. Now that I've had a chance to study the Swashbuckler class, I feel it comes up a little short.
Our group has always been open to experimenting with house rule variations of ther classes, so I could probably pitch some changes to the DM. Perhaps replacing some of the class abilities with feats or something.
Has anyone else had similar experiences with the Swashbuckler?
What kind of changes do you propose for it?
What kind of changes do you propose for it?
I'm not exactly sure. That's what I'm trying to figure out... seeing what others have done (if anything).
I was toying around with one of the following...
a) A bonus feat every 4th level, with things like expertise, dodge, 2-weapon fighting, and their respective chains.
b) Making Reflex a good save as well, and replacing Grace with a bonus feat.
c) I had also considered squeezing in the knight's combat challenge ability, possibly in conjuncture with improving the Reflex save.
If any of these options seems too good, I was thinking of dropping the HD to d8.
Over at ENWorld, we had similar issues w/ Swashbucklers. We discussed it a lot and came up with this revision. Let me know what you think:
The Swashbuckler base class has the following changes:
* D8 Hit Dice
* 6 Skill points per level
* The following are additional class skills: Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility & royalty), Ride, and Sleight of Hand
* The class ability progression has been modified to use the following (changes in bold):
1. Weapon Finesse
2. Grace +1 (Initiative, Reflex)
3. Insightful Strike
4. Improved Disarm
5. Graceful Defense (AC, Disarm)
6. -
7. Acrobatic Charge
8. Improved Flanking
9. Accelerated Tumbling
10. Critical Finesse
11. Grace +2, lucky
12. -
13. Acrobatic skill Mastery
14. Weakening critical
15. Improved Insightful Strike
16. Really Lucky
17. Slippery Mind
18. -
19. Wounding critical
20. Grace +3
Grace - Adds competence bonus to Initiative as well as Reflex Save.
Improved Disarm - As feat, even if swashbuckler doesn't qualify for it normaly.
Graceful Defense - Grace bonus is also added as a dodge bonus to AC when wearing light or no armor and to disarm attempts/resisting being disarmed when using a finesse weapon.
Accelerated Tumbling - When wearing light armor or no armor and not carrying more than a light load, a swashbuckler may Tumble up to their full speed instead of half their speed.
Critical Finesse - When wearing light or no armor, and using a finesse weapon, the swashbuckler is considered to have the Improved Critical feat with any finesse weapon he wields.
Improved Insightful Strike - A swashbuckler may add their Intelligence bonus (if any) to attack roles to confirm a critical hit with a finesse weapon.
Really Lucky - May use luck a second time per day, though only once on any roll.
Now that I've had a chance to study the Swashbuckler class, I feel it comes up a little short.
In my opinion the Swashbuckler is probably the worst designed class in the game and really isn't worth trying to salvage. You can build a far better swashbuckling character by multiclassing fighter and rogue. By putting your rogue skill points into swashbuckly skills and selecting the right combination of feats you can design a very effective finesse fighter.
Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Improved Feint, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, and Weapon Specialization are probably the first feats to consider. Improved Feint and a high bluff score allow you to make a sneak attack nearly every turn, which offsets the relatively low damage of a rapier.
Over at ENWorld, we had similar issues w/ Swashbucklers. We discussed it a lot and came up with this revision. Let me know what you think:
The Swashbuckler base class has the following changes:
* D8 Hit Dice
* 6 Skill points per level
* The following are additional class skills: Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility & royalty), Ride, and Sleight of Hand
* The class ability progression has been modified to use the following (changes in bold):
1. Weapon Finesse
2. Grace +1 (Initiative, Reflex)
3. Insightful Strike
4. Improved Disarm
5. Graceful Defense (AC, Disarm)
6. - ...
I don't have Complete Warrior, yet...
But this looks generally good, I would adjust something like this by thinking WWEFD? Errol Flynn played plenty of Swashbucklers and I would probably model any such character I played after what I remember from those films of my grandparents life.
Now that I've had a chance to study the Swashbuckler class, I feel it comes up a little short.
In my opinion the Swashbuckler is probably the worst designed class in the game and really isn't worth trying to salvage. You can build a far better swashbuckling character by multiclassing fighter and rogue. By putting your rogue skill points into swashbuckly skills and selecting the right combination of feats you can design a very effective finesse fighter.
Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Improved Feint, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, and Weapon Specialization are probably the first feats to consider. Improved Feint and a high bluff score allow you to make a sneak attack nearly every turn, which offsets the relatively low damage of a rapier.
I 200% agree with this. Swashbucklers (and samuraïs as well) are fighters who can't choose their feats and nothing more. You can achieve greater efficiency with a rogue/fighter or even with a two-weapon fighter (rapier + dagger or two short swords)
Bran
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Now that I've had a chance to study the Swashbuckler class, I feel it comes up a little short.
In my opinion the Swashbuckler is probably the worst designed class in the game and really isn't worth trying to salvage. You can build a far better swashbuckling character by multiclassing fighter and rogue. By putting your rogue skill points into swashbuckly skills and selecting the right combination of feats you can design a very effective finesse fighter.
Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Improved Feint, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, and Weapon Specialization are probably the first feats to consider. Improved Feint and a high bluff score allow you to make a sneak attack nearly every turn, which offsets the relatively low damage of a rapier.
I 200% agree with this. Swashbucklers (and samuraïs as well) are fighters who can't choose their feats and nothing more. You can achieve greater efficiency with a rogue/fighter or even with a two-weapon fighter (rapier + dagger or two short swords)
Bran
Too many people these days look for a new class or variant class to add flavor to their character when all they really need to do is look to the Core and add their own flavor. A fighter can be anything from samurai, swashbuckler, skirmisher, scout, noble warrior, evil warlord, etc. All you need is a bit of multiclassing and the proper skill/feat selections.
People are lazy and want all the thinking done for them anymore.FH
Over at ENWorld, we had similar issues w/ Swashbucklers. We discussed it a lot and came up with this revision. Let me know what you think:
This looks pretty good. I like the Improved Insightful strike a lot. I will check out the thread on enworld.
Too many people these days look for a new class or variant class to add flavor to their character when all they really need to do is look to the Core and add their own flavor. A fighter can be anything from samurai, swashbuckler, skirmisher, scout, noble warrior, evil warlord, etc. All you need is a bit of multiclassing and the proper skill/feat selections...
Yes! There are literally thousands of ways to make a fighter (and many other characters) in 3.x. What more do players want?!?
FH is my hero :)
I somewhat agree that the Core classes can cover many concepts. I don't think it's totally accurate to say that everything can be covered by the core classes with flavor thrown in, however, as some of the abilties granted by new classes (the good ones) do fill niches that are not otherwise covered. The Scout's skirmish ability, for instance, cannot be covered by simply throwing Rogue and Fighter together--the Rogue/Fighter relies on hiding and flanking while the skirmisher relies on speed and maneuverability. The Warlock is another example--this is not just a Sorcerer with a specific list of feats, skills, and spells. In fact, I'd likely replace the Sorcerer with the Warlock in my games if I used the system as-is (see below), and replace Ranger with Scout (probably making the Ranger a PrC tied to Druid/Scouts). I'd use these classes because they're well designed and unique, not because I'm lazy (didn't take this as a personal attack, FH, just noting the distinction).
Now, what I'd prefer is that these abilities be covered as feats, so any character can then pick them up (assuming the pre-reqs are met). This is actually what I've done in my home system--there are no classes at all as all class abilities have been turned into feats.
Yes! There are literally thousands of ways to make a fighter (and many other characters) in 3.x. What more do players want?!?
I suppose players want to be able to make the characters that they envision, even if they don't conform immediately to the core classes. Typically in my group it is news worthy if someone plays something as exotic as a druid or paladin. While I absolutely agree that you can make many types of character with the fighter--though I would say thousandsis a stretch--sometimes you get ideas that don't fit so well.
In my case, I wanted a combination of skills and combat abilities that I couldn't see another way to get through multi-classing--at least not without taking abilities I did not want, like sneak attack or bardic music.
Dang, that's the crazy thing about message boards. Read an entry, then look away for a few minutes and someone's already made your point! (Well, okay, a few days.)
Well said, Haelis, TPK, Erain_7. Until the core book builds into itself the means to create a fighting-based character who focuses on avoiding being hit rather than absorbing damage with armor with a slight nod to dex and dodge, it's missing a few crucial building blocks in my attempt to create an Erroll Flynn style swashbuckler.
It seems somewhat purposeful in that lack too, which irks me, since the sky's the limit on Power Attack if you have a high enough base attack, but Combat Expertise tops out at +5. that says to me, "It's okay to hit really freakin' obnoxiously hard, but it ain't okay to be really good at avoiding being hit on your own. Not without wearing a bunch of heavy crud."
It shows up more dramatically (through contrast) when you compare D&D with D20 Modern, where people just don't wear suits of armor so they had to give the various classes defense bonuses.
And that really takes a lot of the wind from my swashbuckling sails. Maybe pirates and dualists are not as core to the mainstay fantasy knights-in-armor kind of vibe, but it disrupts the "Play what kind of a fantasy character/campaign you want" versitility D&D likes to claim. How are the Grey Mouser, Inigo Montoya, or Captain Jack Sparrow any less in keeping with the Fantasy genre? And if they're fighter/rogues how do they avoid getting hit so well?
-- Come to think of it, Haelis, TPK, Erain_7, you all sounded nicer than me when you made your points, too. Darnit. Sorry if I come across as defensive/irritable. I just feel like I've been called lazy for not having the time to train the D&D system to roll over, sit up, and beg (even before we get to the above point that I don't think it's set up to learn all the tricks I want it to do.)
We had a Swashbuckler/Duelist in a campaign I was in not too long ago, and I thought he did exceptionaly well. There were times in fact that I thought he was a bit overpowered.
Either way, I do have to second the Unfettered though. One of the best speed based fighter classes I've ever seen. The Harrier is cool too, probably better infact, I just don't think Iron Heroes transfers well to D&D.
Skull and Bones (I think that's what it's called) from Green Ronin might be worth looking up as well. Can't say I have any experience with the book, but I do remember it had several new pirated oriented core classes that would probably fit in well with Save Tide.
Drakli, you didn't sound any worse (to me) thanmy post. Just some friendly conversation here...
And I offer up third for the Harrier (never really checked out the Unfettered). If I could ever find anyone to actually run IH, that's what I'd be playing...though the archer runs a close second!
Hey, don't forget to check out Stormwrack. Most of the character concepts in there would really do well in the Savage Tide path. I've been looking for a good swashbuckler class for years myself with not a lot luck. But while Stormwrack doesn't have a low-level class that fits the bill, it's got a lot of prestige classes and some ocean-faring feats, skills and spells. So it's worth a look through for inspiration. Even better would be if Dragon published some prestige classes or variant classes for all those players about to set sail on the Savage Tide... (hint, hint)
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I think if you use the Defense Bonus variant, and the Armor as DR, it could be cool. But I would probably make this a class feature, not available to regulars, just anyone wanting to play a "swashbuckler" type.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm
We're discussing that very thing in this thread: