This might have come up before, but does anyone have an idea as to how the grimlocks are to manage attacking the parties light sources? I ran part of the caverns last week and had them do just that, but afterwards I've heard grumblings from the players (rightly so) that the grimlocks shouldn't have been able to do that.
I made it a point that the Grimlocks did not go after Light spells (and passed this info to the players through a wisdom check). But I did have them attack the parties sunrods. But aren't the grimlocks doomed to fail? Not knowing the hardness/hp of a sunrod, at the time I made a mental decision that it was 2 hardness, 2 hp (I assumed they should be fragile). Turns our they are made of iron (10 hardness), and from the weight (1 lb) and size (1 foot rod), they should be .3 inches thick. In other words, they have 9 hp. How are the grimlocks supposed to break that, much less even overcome the hardness? Any thoughts on this? Ranged attacks already do half damage, but even the melee attacks wouldn't work.
Without the darkness aspect, the grimlock caverns become a lot less interesting (from a tactical perspective). The tieflings were actually better at this than the grimlocks, it seems too bad they don't have the same edge.
Crazy Duck
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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This might have come up before, but does anyone have an idea as to how the grimlocks are to manage attacking the parties light sources? I ran part of the caverns last week and had them do just that, but afterwards I've heard grumblings from the players (rightly so) that the grimlocks shouldn't have been able to do that.
By shape, mainly. It should be easy to tell a lantern, torch, candle, or even sunrod from other equipment. Also by how the party holds the light source, which might help for a an object with light cast upon it, but might not.
No great solution for how they destroy a sunrod, unless you want to rule that the coating is easy to damage.
Russ
Consider also the wording on blindsight. The creature is able to ascertain its surroundings through nonvisual means, and usually doesn't have to make spot or listen checks to notice someone within their field of view. In a way, the grimlocks can either smell the burning oil or metal object being held, hear the flicker of flames, or simply pick up the echo signature of the object in question. I think Dragon 327 has a whole ecology on the Grimlock, but it seems that as a moderately sophisticated race (at least on some levels), their senses demand that they be able to ascertain the differences in objects held by others. How else would they trade, gather food, or hunt favored prey (when mind-flayers aren't enslaving them)? So, I agree whole-heartidly with your decision. I encountered the same problem in my game (had to stop all to find sunrod's hardness/hp), but that didn't stop the grimlocks from trying to hit the lights!!(good scare tactics, especially since most of my power-gamers are playing humans)
Also note that torches and lanterns put out heat, probably sunrods too, although not as much.
Given the way grimlocks are depicted--with skin covering some sort of vestigial eyes, like the fish and salamanders that live in subterranean lakes--I figure they can sense light and pinpoint its source well enough to target a light source.
However, the tactic listed isn't necessarily very effective--a torch broken in half continues to burn, it just burns out sooner. Same for a sunrod. Lamps and lanterns are likely to be extinguished but might spill burning oil all over the ground. I didn't use the tactic, really, and even if I had, my party made quick work of the first two rooms in that section. After that, darkness becomes less of a tactical obstacle than terrain, and the missile wielding grimlocks might actually benefit from the party carrying light sources that help them pinpoint targets' location.
I wasn't doubting that the Grimlocks could go after torches, lanterns and sunrods. That's not at issue (although a good case could be made for Light spells).
The problem is that the tactic of going after the light sources....doesn't work. And if it doesn't work, then the Grimlocks aren't much of a challenge at all. As I noted above, the tieflings were actually better at altering the environment to their favor than the grimlocks. From the first few battles I've had, the grimlocks just roll over and die in the light (no challenge whatsoever).
I know plenty of people have said the Grimlock caverns were a cakewalk. Any thoughts on how to make it more challenging, keeping in mind that the theme is "dark caverns where bad guys have advantage because they can see and you can't"?
It doesn't happen until Grallak Kur, but obscuring mist is a great way to aid the grimlocks. They "see" right through it and the players are pretty much stuck with it. If you really wanted to make the intervening stuff harder you could include a warm steam vent or two which belch out an occasional cloud of fog... They are pretty deep underground afterall.
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It doesn't happen until Grallak Kur, but obscuring mist is a great way to aid the grimlocks. They "see" right through it and the players are pretty much stuck with it. If you really wanted to make the intervening stuff harder you could include a warm steam vent or two which belch out an occasional cloud of fog... They are pretty deep underground afterall.
Totally agree with Eltanin here. The obsuring mist was a very useful to the grimlocks.
I added a couple deeper darkness items to the grimlock archers. I figured it was not a problem for Grallak Kur to "refesh" the spells on them every four days. The PCs do it, so why not the bad guys. Attacking light sources is just down right silly when you can be doing actual damage to guy carrying it. I made a percentile roll, 0-25% the deeper darkness items were expired when the PCs got there. They weren't.
I also changed entropic shield for shield of faith. Why carry a spell that is only good against ranged weapons when the guys shooting the bows can't see you in the mist anyway? Made Grallak tougher to hit when the melee started in the mist. I actually got to use every spell Grallak had in prepared. He was a tougher melee fight than the barbarian cheiftain. The party steam rolled him after the PC cleric cast shatter on his Masterwork great axe.
Like I have previously said in another thread, the players found this area very entertaining and challenging. So far this has been my favourite fight of the AoWAP.
I am getting ready to run this section in the next few weeks, and planned on giving the grimlocks alchemical darkness devices. Back int he day there was a small publication called the "little Shop of Poisons and Potions" they had an alchemical mixture that blanketed a 10' area in darkness.
Stan
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Just a side note, but the Grimlock's Blindsight only reaches to 40'. Grallak Kur is in a cavern much deeper than that. My party decided to make a stand at the raised area at the entrance to the chamber, rather than charge forward, which meant I had to have Grallak cast Obscuring Mist so he could move forward to "see" them.
Also, as a side note, having Grallak stand in the mist and then cast Invisibility on himself led to a nice escape. Unfortunately, he'd cast Cause Fear on the party's most effective fighter, who fled until the chamber at the top of the incline leading to the rope bridge. That individual then stood in the entrance to that passage, forcing a combat that came down to a few HP separating the two from life and death.
The party Rogue ran up at the last second, MISSED twice and then allowed Grallak to take down the interfering PC and get away! He'll be showing up in the Vecna temple... *rubs hands together gleefully*
Thanks everyone, that was just the sort of prior experience I was looking for. Sounds like deeper darkness and obscuring mist will do the trick and set up an interesting environmental challenge!
In my game, the PCs went as far as the horseshoe cavern, encountered the archers and the otyughs, and then ran. I think I'll have the chief post some more guards in the entrance cavern (maybe 6 grimlocks, one of whom is holding an item with deeper darkness to give them a chance). The archers will also have deeper darkness on them to give them a chance to hide and some miss chance for the retailiatory fire. If the PCs attack the following day since they left, they'll get a chance to take on Grallak Kur down two third level spells (for deeper darkness). Otherwise they'll get him at full strength.
We finished the grimlock caves a few weeks ago, and I would have to agree with one of the previous posts in that just having the grimlocks make the attempt at attacking the light sources had the desirable effect of putting fear into the party. I had the first set of grimlocks and the kennel master just before the horseshoe cavern make the attempt on the first couple of attacks and then they gave up and went for the party itself. After that, the party realized what the grims were doing and they also realized how hosed they would be if the grims had succeeded and they would have to fight in the dark. Only one char had darkvision and no one had blind fighting. Needless to say, they devised ways to protect their light sources
As a DM you can really play this up and make the experience a bit more creepy to the players.
IMHO, the battle at the horseshoe caverns, the battle with the grimlock cheiftain and then the final battle with Grallak all have the potential to be extremely tough and challenging to the party. Wrong moves on the part of the party, being too hasty or even just plain bad luck could result in a tpk - just look at the AoW Obits thread!
So, I'm not sure its important to gameplay that the grimlocks actually succeed in dousing the light sources - you don't want to make these battles impossible to complete, afterall.
This all being said, if you still want to find a way to douse those sunrods, you could stage a few ambushes by pairs of grimlocks. Give one of them a great club (even have one of them drink an Enlarge Person potion if you're desparate) and then use either Improved Sunder or a standard disarm. Have the second grimlock pick up the sunrod and run away with it or chuck it into the horseshoe cavern, etc.
You could also use the tanglefoot bags from the grimlock archers to target the sunrod and rule that the goo covers the sunrod and blocks its light.
Just a thought, and it might bring much moaning and gnashing of teeth amongst the players, but natural gas in the dungeon could negate the use of torches and lanterns...
And breathable air!
One of the PCs in my group (I'm the DM) carries an everburning torch (candle) (from the Whispering Cairn). Do you guys think that it should be targeted by the grimlocks ? If so, can it be destroyed by simple weapons ?
Why bother with trying to destroy light sources? In the middle of a fight, have one of the grims attempt a disarm maneuver to grab the torch, lantern, sunrod, whatever. (Wounded grimlocks probably won't risk this move, leave it to the ones in good shape.) Once said light-source is stolen, either throw it to the ground (in the case of a torch or lantern), or withdraw from the fight and go hide it somewhere (for sunrods and everburning torches).
If someone proves especially resistant to disarming, initiate a grapple, and have other grims ready actions to assist. Basically mob the light-bearer, pin him, take away the light, then run off with it.