Ever wondered what the damage of a fighter/Ranger with the following attack mods and feats will be?
feats : Raptor school , Favorite Enemy Power Attack , Leap Attack , Rage Class Ability ,Reckless Rage, an 18 str score and an oversized two-handed Sword with Monkey Grip + Powerful Charge and Improved powerful charge and a Rhino Hide armor.
Assume he was observing his victim for 3 rounds and has subtracted 5 from the power attack and goes on rage leaping on his target charging him, the weapon is a +1 keen edge Oversized Two-Handed Sword.
My calculation is:
7d6 + 47
How about a critical?
A couple of things:
1) I don't know where Raptor School is from.
2) You say Fighter/Ranger, but then add in the rage class feature, so I have to assume at least on level in barbarian is part of this.
3) You don't specify a level or size. A 1st level Medium ranger will deal a lot different damage than a 17th level Huge ranger to his favored enemy.
4) There are a few different two-handed swords (primarily the greatsword and the bastard sword). I will be assuming greatsword, as it does the most damage.
For the purposes of this argument, then, I will assume minimum level, Medium human barbarian1/fighter 4/ranger1, wielding a +1 keen Large greatsword.
Level 1) Barbarian; Reckless Rage, Power Attack
Level 2) Fighter; Leap Attack
Level 3) Fighter; Monkey Grip; Powerful Charge
Level 4) Ranger; Favored Enemy Power Attack
Level 5) Any
Level 6) Any; Greater Powerful Charge
Str 18 - Raging 24 two handed = +10
Favored Enemy & Power Leaping Attack = +32
Greater Powerful Charge & Rhino Hide = +4d6
the attack line for this particular attack would be as follows:
+1 keen Large greatsword +14 (3d6+43/18-20 plus 4d6)
Damage would be 12 less against other characters, and less another 10 and the 4d6 if a charge were not involved (as well as 2 off the atk modifier) - but then the character could make a second attack at +7. We're still talking (3d6+20/18-20) here, against a non-optimal foe.
I will note, however, that his AC is at -6 for the flying raging leap of doom.
TK
/geek
1) I don't know where Raptor School is from.
...
+1 keen Large greatsword +14 (3d6+43/18-20 plus 4d6)
Okay, just found Raptor School (Tactical Feat from CW, btw).
I suppose this would increase the atk modifier to +20 and the damage to (3d6+53/18-20 plus 4d6), for an average of 77 damage, 140 on a critical.
TK
AHK! Too much math!
Indeed. I'd never allow such a monstrosity at my game. Or at least I'd try not to. *sigh*
TK
Not bad, ive had a hit of 365 damage in a 15th level game when we all made these tough as characters and got to try power gaming.
A couple of things:
1) I don't know where Raptor School is from.
2) You say Fighter/Ranger, but then add in the rage class feature, so I have to assume at least on level in barbarian is part of this.
3) You don't specify a level or size. A 1st level Medium ranger will deal a lot different damage than a 17th level Huge ranger to his favored enemy.
4) There are a few different two-handed swords (primarily the greatsword and the bastard sword). I will be assuming greatsword, as it does the most damage.
For the purposes of this argument, then, I will assume minimum level, Medium human barbarian1/fighter 4/ranger1, wielding a +1 keen Large greatsword.
Level 1) Barbarian; Reckless Rage, Power Attack
Level 2) Fighter; Leap Attack
Level 3) Fighter; Monkey Grip; Powerful Charge
Level 4) Ranger; Favored Enemy Power Attack
Level 5) Any
Level 6) Any; Greater Powerful Charge
The feat Leap Attack, wouldn't be available until lvl 6 due to it's 8 ranks of jump requirement.
But anyways powergaming is silly.
The feat Leap Attack, wouldn't be available until lvl 6 due to it's 8 ranks of jump requirement.Level 1) Barbarian; Reckless Rage, Power Attack
Level 2) Fighter; Leap Attack
Level 3) Fighter; Monkey Grip; Powerful Charge
Level 4) Ranger; Favored Enemy Power Attack
Level 5) Any
Level 6) Any; Greater Powerful Charge
Good catch. The build still works, though, if you take Fighter at levels 5 and 6, since there'd be an extra bonus feat.
But anyways powergaming is silly.
I agree. But then, so is pretending to be an elf. We gamers are a funny lot.
TK
One more thing -- won't "keen" make a greatsword from 19-20 to 17-20 rather than 18-20. Otherwise, my math is a bit off...
Yeah, you're right. No excuses for me... I even got a decent rest before I posted that.
The feat Leap Attack, wouldn't be available until lvl 6 due to it's 8 ranks of jump requirement.Level 1) Barbarian; Reckless Rage, Power Attack
Level 2) Fighter; Leap Attack
Level 3) Fighter; Monkey Grip; Powerful Charge
Level 4) Ranger; Favored Enemy Power Attack
Level 5) Any
Level 6) Any; Greater Powerful Charge
Good catch. The build still works, though, if you take Fighter at levels 5 and 6, since there'd be an extra bonus feat.
But anyways powergaming is silly.I agree. But then, so is pretending to be an elf. We gamers are a funny lot.
TK
So this Lets say Human would be just a 6th level character? Well lets add him some more levels.
Level 1) Barbarian; Reckless Rage, Power AttackLevel 2) Fighter; Leap Attack
Level 3) Fighter; Monkey Grip; Powerful Charge
Level 4) Ranger; Favored Enemy Power Attack
Level 5) Fighter;
Level 6) Fighter; Greater Powerful Charge, Raptor School
Level 7) Fighter;
Level 8) Fighter; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
Level 9) Exotic Weapon Master: Uncanny Blow(Ex), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
Level 10) Fighter;
Level 11) Fighter; Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
Level 12) Fighter; Melee Mastery (Slashing), Extra Rage
The attack bonus will be +12+7str+1wf+1ma+2mm+6r+2ch-5p.a-2m.g.=
+24 more than enough to hit most CR12 enemies
So we got 2d8+4d6 +1magic + 6raptor + 12str + 2f.e. +2Sp. +2m.m.
+25p.a. (5(X2t.h.X3f.e.X3l.a.)=X6=30) for a total of
2d8+4d6+55 .
Note: this insane damage only applies when the character Charges and Leaps raging on His favorite Enemy after he has 3 uninterrupted rounds of observation and used 5 points of power attack.
Normally it would be Just 2d8+39 with an attack of + 15 Assume only power attack 5 points and rage and a leap.
The question is how much will the damage be in case of a critical? Assume a +1 Keen edge oversized Bastard Sword.
Also how would you describe this attack?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Indeed. I'd never allow such a monstrosity at my game. Or at least I'd try not to. *sigh*
Out of curiosity, how would you try and keep such a monstrosity out of your game? It's one thing to ban an individual feat because it's too powerful, or to put caps on multi-classing (particularly into prestige classes) to prevent cherry-picking, but I can't see what sort of rule could be articulated to prevent a character like this in the aggregate. Do you just say "you're characters can't be too powerful" and then define "too powerful" on a case-by-case basis?
I'm all for arbitrary rules, but not for arbitrary interpretations.
Out of curiosity, how would you try and keep such a monstrosity out of your game? It's one thing to ban an individual feat because it's too powerful, or to put caps on multi-classing (particularly into prestige classes) to prevent cherry-picking, but I can't see what sort of rule could be articulated to prevent a character like this in the aggregate. Do you just say "you're characters can't be too powerful" and then define "too powerful" on a case-by-case basis?
I'm all for arbitrary rules, but not for arbitrary interpretations.
You ask a difficult question. On one hand, each of those feats individually are not out of line, and I don't like restricting choices. Heck, it doesn't even use classes outside of the PH! On the other hand, a character with all of these feats will overshadow most of the other characters in terms of melee combat - if I as the DM want a particular "boss" monster to survive more than a couple of hits, the power level would be immensely higher than the other PCs could handle. I do approve/deny feats on a case-by-case basis, and I request that if the players want a chain of feats for their character to let me know ahead of time so I know what to expect.
It really all comes down to maintaining parity. I suppose if the majority of my players were really interested in who could thrown down the largest number of dice in any one round, I might adjust my game to fit that, but that's not the case (I think).
What about you? How would you handle it if a player told you he wanted these feats (or a similar set)?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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What about you? How would you handle it if a player told you he wanted these feats (or a similar set)?
Short answer: I'd let them do it.
My base assumption about WotC books is that they are tested, balanced, and designed by people who know a lot more than I do about good game design. They've got a lot of institutional knowledge and resources that I lack. It's a rebuttable assumption though, but the only way that I find acceptable to rebut it is through playtesting (either by my group or by groups with a similar philosophy of minimal rules changes).
In the context of other 15th level characters, this amount of damage might not be that far outside the curve. How do you compare a ton of damage to a hold person type ability with a high save? How do you compare it to having an AC so high that opponents can hardly touch you? There are a lot of different things that a character can be good at, and it's very tough to determine which ones are or are not broken just by looking at the stats in a vacuum.
Here's an example in my current campaign. One of the players (god bless his evil munchkin heart) has made a character designed to abuse the trip rules. He weilds a spiked chain, he gets lots of attacks of opportunity, and he has feats to increase his effectiveness with that tactic. He has handed many a bad guy a humiliating defeat by keeping them on the ground while the rest of the party pounds the enemy. On paper and in play he seems pretty broken when fighting on his terms.
But then you bring the fight to him off his terms. You throw him against quardrapeds and large sized creatures. Fliers and beholders. High strength opponents capable of resisting his attack. You swarm him with too many creatures so that he can't trip them all. You fight reach with reach. And as you do, you see that he is almost entirely ineffectual if he can't trip his opponent. He's gotten to shine in a few fights, but he's also been entirely irrelevant in others. On the whole, it balances out.
All that being said, the player and I talked before he started running this character, and I told him that if playing proved that he was too powerful, we would make adjustments to the feats, abilities, or rules to compensate. Thus far, that hasn't been necessary, and the party has had a good time building their strategies to take advantage of this character's strengths.
In my experience, the most broken elements of any campaign are those that come from (i) home rules or (ii) non-WotC supplements. WotC slips up now and again, but they're got a lot better average than any DM I've ever seen and any non-WotC company who's products I've used. I play the averages and err on the side of believing they know better than I.
Ok, I've come up with what I think is something that might be as ugly. Cleric of Pelor, strength and healing domain. Can you guys come up with a way to make this guy even more nasty. I was thinking Enlarge Person, and Bull's Strenght of course as domain spells. 12 Wis, 18 str and 14 cha is what you need for my damage calculation.
lvl 1: Cleric, Monkey grip, Power Attack
lvl 2: Cleric
lvl 3: Cleric, Divine Might
lvl 4: Fighter, Weapon Focus Greatsword, +1 str
lvl 5: Fighter,
lvl 6: Fighter, Leap Attack
lvl 7: Fighter, Weapon Specialization
lvl 8: Fighter, +1 str
3 minutes per/day, while under enlarge and bulls the cleric recieves +6 str(26 in total, and weapon size increases by one size(4d6 damage)
Leapattack to hit; +7(ba), +8(str), +1(wf), -5(pa) = 11
Leapattack damage; +12(str), +15(leap), +2(divinemight), +2(ws), +4d6(huge weapon)= 4d6+31
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Here's an example in my current campaign. One of the players (god bless his evil munchkin heart) has made a character designed to abuse the trip rules. He weilds a spiked chain, he gets lots of attacks of opportunity, and he has feats to increase his effectiveness with that tactic. He has handed many a bad guy a humiliating defeat by keeping them on the ground while the rest of the party pounds the enemy. On paper and in play he seems pretty broken when fighting on his terms.
But then you bring the fight to him off his terms. You throw him against quardrapeds and large sized creatures. Fliers and beholders. High strength opponents capable of resisting his attack. You swarm him with too many creatures so that he can't trip them all. You fight reach with reach. And as you do, you see that he is almost entirely ineffectual if he can't trip his opponent. He's gotten to shine in a few fights, but he's also been entirely irrelevant in others. On the whole, it balances out.
Great example.
With the character in question -- He is mostly effective against characters he charges and characters he has as favored enemy. His Will save at this level is pretty much crap (can anyone say "Dominate person"?). His AC takes a huge hit from charging and raging. Terrain will take a lot out of charging. And if he is fighting his favored enemy every battle, then it had better be Orcs and the party should be going into an Orc nation... Powerful? Yes. Vulnerable? Yes. Allow it? Sure.
If there was one feat or prestige class that made things unbalanced, I might look into banning it. Just because a certain combination works well doesn't mean that it should be banned.
Words definitely worth consideration...
1. I generally agree with Sebastian Re: WotC playtesting and balancing. I remember a time in the past where there was a thread with a major argument about it between us, but that was on one example. I remember when I started playing, my friend (Sexi Golem) and I started tweaking with rules because we thought they didn't make sense and we could handle the repurcussions. We were wrong! Typically speaking, WotC does a great job, and I always err on the side of supporting their rules and assuming they are balanced.
2. THAT SAID, Leap Attack is broken. I don't have my books at the moment, but I HAVE played along side a fighter (with a level of barbarian) who specialized in using that with a trident and power attack. Sexi Golem can give further deffinition to the issue, if he reads this, but I believe at ~12th level, he killed a marilith in one shot. I know Sexi had his reasons for running that game the way he did, and in hindsight I don't think he did that bad a job given the circumstances. However, in my eyes, the character was completely overpowered. It was extremely boring playing along beside him, since almost any combat situation was quickly resolved by him.
The Jump DC is pathetic for the feat, and there ARE ways (not too hard, either) to overcome difficult terrain and flying opponents while keeping most of the advantages of the build. Again, no books in front of me at the moment, but I know what I saw and played beside. I will never allow Leap Attack in my games.
3. There are some things that just can't be balanced. I'm not necessarily citing anything specific here, but the fact is that it's still not okay to build a PrC or feat or something that turns one into a titanic, deific combat juggernaut, balanced by zapping him to a bestial mindset. Sorry, you can't just keep dragging the extremes away from each other and expect it to work. It still needs to remain more or less in the middle of the spectrum of possibilities, in my mind. There's plenty of room there, and deviating too far from it leads to a mindset of "winning" the game (and thus breaking it), I think, whether that was the intention or not.
4. A build like those discussed so far would have varying levels of appropriateness in different games, with different players. Power-gaming dungeon crawl campaign? go for it. Political intrigue, deep-immersion roleplaying campaign. Not gonna fly, typically, though if I think someone can make it work, I'll give it a shot. Typically, I'd say if you can't come up with a decent story for why your character exists the way he does, it doesn't get played. It proves to be a pretty good device for deciding what to allow and ban (but no Radiant Servants or Frenzied Berserkers will ever roam my games again, no matter what!).
I was thinking Enlarge Person...
5. As DragonNerd and Sexi Golem can attest, cleric players using size-altering magic should beware shotgun-wielding golems....