Hiya all,
I have a question for your good selves.
In the campaign I run, a Paladin of Heironeous was killed mostly by bad luck. There isn't anyone nearby who is capable of raising him and they can't really head off-track to find someone.
Now, I could just get the player to roll up a new PC but he is really attached to this Paladin.
So, what I was thinking of doing is having Pelor, via a proxy, offer ressurection to the PC.
I think the first effect of this is the PC would shift to Chaotic Good rather than LG. Obviously, this would breach the Paladin.
I would then work in an Atonement (again, offered by Pelor's proxy) to allow the player to regain his former powers, this time in service to Pelor rather than Heironeous.
So, what do people think?
Cheers, Chris.
Hiya all,
I have a question for your good selves.
In the campaign I run, a Paladin of Heironeous was killed mostly by bad luck. There isn't anyone nearby who is capable of raising him and they can't really head off-track to find someone.
Now, I could just get the player to roll up a new PC but he is really attached to this Paladin.
So, what I was thinking of doing is having Pelor, via a proxy, offer ressurection to the PC.
I think the first effect of this is the PC would shift to Chaotic Good rather than LG. Obviously, this would breach the Paladin.
I would then work in an Atonement (again, offered by Pelor's proxy) to allow the player to regain his former powers, this time in service to Pelor rather than Heironeous.
So, what do people think?
Cheers, Chris.
Why exactly would being raised by a cleric of Pelor convert him to CG? Worshipping one god doesn't mean that a character can't accept aid from another. In fact the paladin in question has probably mumbled quite a few prayers to Pelor over the course of his life. Even if Pelor's proxy demands some kind of payment for this service, it's not like the paladin would have to go off and slay ten newborn babies...the service would be something that the paladin would want to do anyway.
Why exactly would being raised by a cleric of Pelor convert him to CG?
I was thinking more along the lines of being raised by Pelor himself.
I see it as a chaotic act since the paladin would be accepting that his own survival is more important even though it is counter to what Heironeous thinks.
Basically I am looking at introducing a spark into the campaign by adding in tension between two greater powers.
Hate to be a killjoy but Paladins are Lawful good according to the PHB alignment p43.
Let the dead paladin be dead. Death, especially at the lower levels should be difficult to over come. Also when the good die young it only makes for compelling drama. Role play laments from his friends rooll any new character, and like life move on.
Why exactly would being raised by a cleric of Pelor convert him to CG?
I see it as a chaotic act since the paladin would be accepting that his own survival is more important ...
Own survival more important than what? Dumb bad luck. I think any self respecting Paladin (high charisma, confidence self worth), would feel more improtant than a chaotic twist of bad luck. Big ego should not mean chaotic or evil
My humble opinion.
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On Oerth (Greyhawk), Pelor is considered to have created everything that is good. Pelor is a NG deity, not CG.
It also means Pelor may have created Heironeous.
I've got this idea to "spark" your campaign. Why don't you make this paladin face one of the 2 following dilemnas :
- become a paladin of Heironeous AND Pelor (thus completing missions for both churches, and acting as an emissary and a diplomat for those 2 faiths' good relations) : both faith have a common goal after all, overthrow evil...
- make Pelor's priests ask the soul of the paladin to join "pelorian armies", thus becoming a paladin of Mayaheine (a LG demigod, former paladin of Pelor, raised to godhood by Pelor) : Mayaheine's beliefs are just in-between Heironeous and Pelor's ones. This should have a temporary drawback (after all, you wrote he died mostly out of bad luck), like recovering paladin's powers one by one, all along the adventure you're DMing.
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I see it as a chaotic act since the paladin would be accepting that his own survival is more important even though it is counter to what Heironeous thinks.
Not necessarily. The Paladin could consider it his duty to return to Oerth to battle evil instead of moving on to his reward in the afterlife. That certainly isn't chaotic.
Basically I am looking at introducing a spark into the campaign by adding in tension between two greater powers.
That doesn't really make much sense. Heironeous is a lawful good deity dedicated to battling evil. Pelor neutral good and is also opposed to evil, and has become more militant in that regard in recent years. If anything, Pelor's new militarism would serve to reduce any previous tension that might have existed between himself and Heironeous, bringing the two deities into a closer alliance and friendship.
I think the real question is, what would the player of the paladin think of this?
I've known a few players who would have completely freaked out and refused to have their character brought back (or would have tried to kill them off again) once something like this was laid out to them. I've also known some who would think it was really cool, and plenty more who wouldn't really have cared and would have played along quite happily.
I think the main things about it that bother me are as follows: 1. I don't see why this would cause the PC to become chaotic, even temporarily; 2. If the player really loves this character, how much of this is tied up in his choice of Heironeous as patron; 3. If you see a conflict between the faiths of Pelor and Heironeous, making the PC switch from one to the other at the same time that you introduce that conflict could cause some real issues.
Another option: Have some mysterious power offer to raise the paladin because "Your work is not yet done." When he accepts, he's raised (normal level loss as a consequence), and a symbol of Hextor (or other evil deity of your choice) manifests an floats there. Some minion of the evil god (NOT the evil god himself) has raised the paladin because there's some prophesy that indicates the paladin will play an integral role in something the forces of evil desparately want to accomplish. (This could be something like releasing a powerful evil being from imprisonment - which the paladin later does as part of a plan to destroy the evil being, but the prophesy didn't tell them that part.)
In the meantime, if the "good" churches learn about the unusual way in which the paladin came back to life, they might have worries of their own about him. One church might continue to support him because he is a paladin, after all; another good church might investigate the prophesy and worry that he's going to go Blackguard at some point, and watch his every step with great suspicion. Through all this, leave his alignment and his paladin abilities intact - Heironeous knows he's not evil, even if people have suspicions otherwise.
I think the real question is, what would the player of the paladin think of this?
I've known a few players who would have completely freaked out and refused to have their character brought back (or would have tried to kill them off again) once something like this was laid out to them. I've also known some who would think it was really cool, and plenty more who wouldn't really have cared and would have played along quite happily.
I think the main things about it that bother me are as follows: 1. I don't see why this would cause the PC to become chaotic, even temporarily; 2. If the player really loves this character, how much of this is tied up in his choice of Heironeous as patron; 3. If you see a conflict between the faiths of Pelor and Heironeous, making the PC switch from one to the other at the same time that you introduce that conflict could cause some real issues.
Another option: Have some mysterious power offer to raise the paladin because "Your work is not yet done." When he accepts, he's raised (normal level loss as a consequence), and a symbol of Hextor (or other evil deity of your choice) manifests an floats there. Some minion of the evil god (NOT the evil god himself) has raised the paladin because there's some prophesy that indicates the paladin will play an integral role in something the forces of evil desparately want to accomplish. (This could be something like releasing a powerful evil being from imprisonment - which the paladin later does as part of a plan to destroy the evil being, but the prophesy didn't tell them that part.)
In the meantime, if the "good" churches learn about the unusual way in which the paladin came back to life, they might have worries of their own about him. One church might continue to support him because he is a paladin, after all; another good church might investigate the prophesy and worry that he's going to go Blackguard at some point, and watch his every step with great suspicion. Through all this, leave his alignment and his paladin abilities intact -...
I like the way you think, Cintra... ^_^
Another option: Have some mysterious power offer to raise the paladin because "Your work is not yet done." When he accepts, he's raised (normal level loss as a consequence), and a symbol of Hextor (or other evil deity of your choice) manifests an floats there. Some minion of the evil god (NOT the evil god himself) has raised the paladin because there's some prophesy that indicates the paladin will play an integral role in something the forces of evil desparately want to accomplish. (This could be something like releasing a powerful evil being from imprisonment - which the paladin later does as part of a plan to destroy the evil being, but the prophesy didn't tell them that part.)
In the meantime, if the "good" churches learn about the unusual way in which the paladin came back to life, they might have worries of their own about him. One church might continue to support him because he is a paladin, after all; another good church might investigate the prophesy and worry that he's going to go Blackguard at some point, and watch his every step with great suspicion. Through all this, leave his alignment and his paladin abilities intact -...
This is twisted and brilliant and would add oh so much story to the character.
You could split the difference and have the paladin raised on behalf of some CG deity (Trithereon) who demands a service which is patently good, but puts the the paladin in a position where is undermining some "legitimate" authority (like helping out a CG rebellion against a LN government).
But I love your idea much more...
I think the first effect of this is the PC would shift to Chaotic Good rather than LG. Obviously, this would breach the Paladin.
I would then work in an Atonement (again, offered by Pelor's proxy) to allow the player to regain his former powers, this time in service to Pelor rather than Heironeous.
I think this could work... if the player is interested in this plot line and thinks as you do. (If, say, he agrees that he's returning to life, breaking the laws of death, and wants to play that out.)
In general, I prefer to present these types of decisions as positive choices (both ways), not a pair of sticks. For example, when he wakes up, his superior from the Temple of Heironeous (STH hereafter) could be present beside the priest from the Temple of Pelor (PTP hereafter). STH might have to break the bad news; Heironeous wasn't willing to grant him the power to raise the PC. Remembering signs of the paladin's signifigance, STH went to his ally PTP and asked him to do so. PTP was successful...
So now there are a few questions/options you can expand on.
a) Why didn't Heironeous raise him?
b) Why was Pelor willing?
c) What does Pelor's priest want of him (or Heironeous)?
d) Pelor might offer him the chance to convert; if so, make him CG and a Paladin of Freedom (from Unearthed Arcana).
This is an opportunity for good roleplaying from the character. There's a mystery: why did the ressurection work out this way? Is it something about the people involved, or is it something on the plane of gods? Maybe there's something about now that Heironeous is indebted, he's allowed to work more closely with Pelor... crusade anyone?
Anyway, think it through, but make sure that the character concept isn't mangled to the point that the player's not interested in him anymore. Ambiguity in game and a working together attitude OOC might combine to make this a tremendous plot arc for you both.
Thanks for all the great ideas ...
The player is interested in pursuing ressurection even though he knows it may be a bumpy ride.
I am currently looking at Mayaheine as another cog in the wheel.
Cheers, Chris.
Pelor isn't CG. I can't remember if he's LG or NG, but either of those allows paladins. The latest Dragon has an article on the matter, describing a recent upsurge in paladins of Pelor.
Allowing him to be raised mysteriously is fine - he knows he won't be able to count on it a second time. You might not want the resurrection to be given away free, though - you could give him a vision from Pelor that burdens him with an important task and an uncertain, heavy destiny.
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I was thinking more along the lines of being raised by Pelor himself.
Why would Pelor go to this effort, or even care? Paladins die, they're heroes and that's what they do. If this particular one has something important to do then I'd think his own God would be considerably more likely to bring him back. Pelor has plenty of his own worshippers to fret over.
I see it as a chaotic act since the paladin would be accepting that his own survival is more important even though it is counter to what Heironeous thinks.
I also wouldn't imagine that Pelor would just "take" one of Heironeous' paladins. If this paladin's survival is counter to what Heironeous thinks (and I'm not sure why that would be), then I would think that, as Pelor, I'd go find a random farmer somewhere and "call" him into service for whatever great destiny I need a paladin to fulfill.
Basically I am looking at introducing a spark into the campaign by adding in tension between two greater powers.
And see, this looks like a DM creating conflict for conflict's own sake. Both Pelor and Heironeous have plenty to worry about, being wholly opposed to evil as they are, without getting themselves in a situation where their churches might start taking an active and personal dislike to each other. If you're wanting to set up a divine conflict over this guy, then I'd use some evil deity (yeah, Hextor comes to mind, but several other Greyhawk Gods are into causing trouble), and just make it "look" like Pelor did it. Then the good Gods can all be trying to keep their churches under control while this tainted paladin (and I would taint him, but I think I'd move him toward evil, not chaos) tries to come to grips with the new and unpleasant visions he's getting, and the base urges he never had to fight before, and the fact that NONE of the good churches trust him.
That fulfills your desire for divine conflict, and gives your player a hard but interesting road to return to his state of grace.Just my random thoughts...
Pelor isn't CG. I can't remember if he's LG or NG, but either of those allows paladins. The latest Dragon has an article on the matter, describing a recent upsurge in paladins of Pelor.
Allowing him to be raised mysteriously is fine - he knows he won't be able to count on it a second time. You might not want the resurrection to be given away free, though - you could give him a vision from Pelor that burdens him with an important task and an uncertain, heavy destiny.
Pelor is NG and can clerics of NG, LG and CG and Pelor can have LG paladins.
I think one of the reasons thier is so much debate on if a Paladin of Heironious is Resurrected by a Cleric of Pelor comes from our monothiestic culture. We shou7ld be asking hindus on thier point of view of divine worship. In a Polytheistic religion, askihng the right god for the right blessing should not take from ones devotion to another god. Or I would think.
Another option: Have some mysterious power offer to raise the paladin because "Your work is not yet done." When he accepts, he's raised (normal level loss as a consequence), and a symbol of Hextor (or other evil deity of your choice) manifests an floats there. Some minion of the evil god (NOT the evil god himself) has raised the paladin because there's some prophesy that indicates the paladin will play an integral role in something the forces of evil desparately want to accomplish. (This could be something like releasing a powerful evil being from imprisonment - which the paladin later does as part of a plan to destroy the evil being, but the prophesy didn't tell them that part.)
I just want to point out that a character being ressurrected always knows who is trying to do the revivifying. Now, if you stuck to Hextor himself or some proxy, I'd say go for it, he can certainly overcome any mortal limitation. But, the paladin would be well aware that a priest of Hextor was trying to raise him if that was the case. However, that doesn't mean you xan't go for it- you just need to slip in some new artifact or special magical protection devised by the Hextorite for this very reason, for the sake of internal consistency.
I just want to point out that a character being ressurrected always knows who is trying to do the revivifying. Now, if you stuck to Hextor himself or some proxy, I'd say go for it, he can certainly overcome any mortal limitation. But, the paladin would be well aware that a priest of Hextor was trying to raise him if that was the case. However, that doesn't mean you xan't go for it- you just need to slip in some new artifact or special magical protection devised by the Hextorite for this very reason, for the sake of internal consistency.
Very good point. Well caught Saern.
Maybe the paladin is raised by a cleric of Pelor or Heirneous, they just have a blackguard of Hextor standing nearby ready to perform a coup on her 8 year old daughter...
Now THAT would work!