Sorry for the cheesy pun, but anyway as you all should know this is about a problem that somehow involves epic lvls. The problem is that being so close to epic lvl, I realize how bewildering all of it is. The cost of the spells, lowering spell effectiveness by lowering spellcraft, and mainly just what to do after hitting epic. After Epic all you get is....actually I don't think you get anything. Once you get the ability to learn and create epic spells that's it. I would like to know if anyone else has ever had the "Epic" problems (sorry for that one two) and how they dealt with it. And what should I do after hitting epic? Tell me what you think and about any epic characters you had. I was thinking about multiclassing into a monk after epic, yay for monk bonuses!
Flabulater OUT!
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And what should I do after hitting epic? Tell me what you think and about any epic characters you had. I was thinking about multiclassing into a monk after epic, yay for monk bonuses!
I am not certain that I understand what you are asking. Here is an attempt (not fully knowing classes, etc.) to answer...
The epic spells in the epic level handbook are confusing to create (at best) and most of the spells are too difficult to learn at 21st level anyway.
You get an epic feat at 21st level, so what you choose does matter and you can get some pretty cool things.
There are a couple of really cool things for spell casters at epic levels. One of the first things to consider is how to cast as many spells as possible in as short a time as possible. It does no good to have 87 spells when combat only takes 4 rounds. Another thing with spellcasters is the ability to cast 10th level, 11th level, etc. spells (with appropriate metamagic feats). There is a metamagic feat that reduces the "cost" of other metamagic feats.
After you hit epic level, choosing other classes has much more to do with special abilities of the class (ability to rage, sneak attack damage, cast divine spells, favored enemy, etc.) than anything else -- since the BAB and Saves increase at the same "speed" regardless of what class you take. For this reason, it would also be a good idea to take a good look at prestige classes for your character.
A lot of the feats have some fairly high prerequisites. Make sure that you take a good look at them and see about taking appropriate classes if you are short in anything.
Hope that this helps. Let me know if you have any more specific information.
Bill
No epic problems here. I was fortunate enough to have have the oppotunity to game the better part of two years in epic levels. When we finally retired the campaign in March '06, the party level was around 28.
These characters included the following:
Rusk - human male barbarian 13/fighter 6/champion of Gwynharwyf 8 (Exalted Deeds)
Khaltarah - sun elf male wizard 26/archmage 2
Aldamar - human male cleric of Mystra 22/spellfire channeler 4 (Magic of Faerun)/paladin 2
Remmy - rock gnome male sorcerer 9/rogue 6/arcane trickster 12
What did we do during those epic levels? Let's see (these are in no particular order)...
-Slew Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer.
-Thwarted Vlaakith's plans to take over the western Dales.
-Fought in three major Braveheart-style battles (Twisted Tower, Castle Daggerdale, and Dagger Falls).
-Conquered Acererak's Fortress of Conclusion and "surpressed" the demi-lich's spirit.
-Assaulted the githyanki capital of Tunarath (alongside scores of allies, cohorts, NPCs, and summoned celestials).
-Broke into Vlaakith's Palace of Whispers and destroyed the githyanki lich-queen.
-Fought against their major foe (a half-fiend vampire epic blood magus), who, along with a trio of epic necromancers, managed to "ressurect" Acererak into the form of an atropal, recreating the Dark Intrusion (from Return to the Tomb of Horrors) in the dungeons beneath Castle Grimstead. The Elder (as the vampire was known) used an eclipse epic spell to blot out the sun, and with the help of the Dark Intrusion (negative energy leaking into Faerun), he amassed an army of undead (including lich and vampire generals and a number of "special" undead bosses I whipped together) and unleashed it upon the Western Dales, who were still weakened by Vlaakith's war. That was an entire campaign in itself.
Just take it up a notch. Epic levels aren't impossible. I had TONS of fun with it.
Concerning epic spellcasting, some of the spells in the Epic Handbook are so beyond any possibility that a PC will ever have access to them. Even Hellball isn't all that great compared to an admixed/energy substituted/empowered chain lighting. It's when the arcane trickster takes multispell twice that things get rough for the DM. ;-) He "iced" my advanced gelugon with four force orbs and an impromtu sneak in one round. Ouch.
I too don't know what you're looking for, so here's some random thoughts:
I like the epic spells in some of the recent FR books better than those in the ELH. Vanilla epic are just too cheesy, fun epic play demands a proper setting and story - which FR is well suited for.
If you want powergaming, I'd say stick to single class characters. High-level play favors single class powervise, and epic play in particular. The epic Arcane Trickster in my game is tons of fun, but he never ever tips the balance or saves the day.
I think I know what you are talking about. Once you hit 20th level with a wizard, there really isn't a lot of growth to be had by gaining more wizard levels. You don't gain more spells per day or gain the ability to cast better spells once you get the epic spellcasting feat. You do, if I recal correctly continue to gain bonus feats every few levels. This isn't a great incentive however since there are a lot of classes that gain similar bonus feats or good special abilities.
I was playing in an epic campaign an the wizard brought this to our attention. He ended up multiclassing as an archmage and started picking up their special abilities instead of just increasing wizard levels. If you are interested in increasing your wizarding abilities, just make sure the prestige class has spellcraft as a class skill and you'll be fine. However, a monk/wizard combo sounds like fun...
-Assaulted the githyanki capital of Tunarath (alongside scores of allies, cohorts, NPCs, and summoned celestials).
-Broke into Vlaakith's Palace of Whispers and destroyed the githyanki lich-queen.
-Fought against their major foe (a half-fiend vampire epic blood magus), who, along with a trio of epic necromancers, managed to "ressurect" Acererak into the form of an atropal, recreating the Dark Intrusion (from Return to the Tomb of Horrors) in the dungeons beneath Castle Grimstead. The Elder (as the vampire was known) used an eclipse epic spell to blot out the sun, and with the help of the Dark Intrusion (negative energy leaking into Faerun), he amassed an army of undead (including lich and vampire generals and a number of "special" undead bosses I whipped together) and unleashed it upon the Western Dales, who were still weakened by Vlaakith's war. That was an entire campaign in itself.
I wanna play with YOU guys.
Sorry for not being so specific, but basically I just want to know about your experiences of playing an epic character and what to do after I hit epic. These replies however are answering my questions. That sounds like fun though Crust. Now I have chose two classes to multiclass into. Rouge or Monk. A sorcerer/monk or sorcerer/rouge sounds fun and could make an intresting combination. Thank you all for you answers for they have helped alot.
~Flabulater OUT!
I can't believe I didn't mention this in my previous post, but...
That epic campaign came to an end with the Quicksilver Hourglass module from #123. I knew it would be so as soon as I saw the module, and I was so excited to run it!
Some spoilers below:
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(There)
I replaced the demigod with The Elder (male half-fiend human evolved vampire sorcerer 19/blood magus 10/master vampire 3). The Hourglass itself was actually a pocket dimension constructed by The Elder and his servants, which housed his adamantine coffin and the coffins of his most powerful vampire subordinates. The portal to this domain was found in Loviatar's realm of the Barrens of Doom and Despair, atop a frozen, wind-swept glacier guarded by powerful gelugon lords.
I did away with the time effect, and I also removed the advanced blackstone gigant. With four slam attacks that won't miss without a natty 1 and a fort save of 50 against being turned to stoned, it would have wasted the party. The half-fiend cleric (Loviatar... the Elder served Loviatar, btw) and the two vampires made excellent servants for The Elder. A perfect fit.
The glooms had actually been hunting the PCs since their slaying of Vlaakith (the latest of many assassin teams sent for either revenge or money). They made such excellent slayers. They came close to assassinating the barbarian before the spellcasters took their turns and unleashed hell. Glooms are the ultimate assassins. One of the best monsters in the epic book. The five levels of invisible blade was an awesome touch. *claps*
The advanced colossal black dragon with the three heads didn't stand a chance against the focused power of the heroes.
The Elder's final chamber was a vast pit of blood, with his adamantine coffin resting on a pedestal in the center. The Acererak atropal bathed and splashed in the blood like an irritated infant, while blood animotes (Libris Mortis) surged and pulsed like living waves. Thick chains hung from the rafters high above, ending in gory hooks, and kytons swung and jeered from the shadows above. The battle was fearsome, with the Elder lurking beneath the blood, striking at anyone entering, while the atropal unleashed its own destruction. The animotes and kytons either stayed out of the way or died in the crossfire.
The arcane trickster eventually used shape change (fire giant) and Tenser's transformation to grapple the Elder out of the blood (they've faced the Elder in a similar blood pit beneath Grimstead Castle, so they were prepared), while the wizard, having an action readied, unleashed an empowered/spell enhanced sunburst spell, obliterating the ancient vampire forever. With the Elder destroyed, the pocket dimension began to collapse, so the PCs made a hasty retreat, leaving the infantile atropal to its own fate, crying and wailing as the pocket dimension imploded.
I'm dying to see another epic-level module. Quicksilver Hourglass was AWESOME.
I can't believe I didn't mention this in my previous post, but...
That epic campaign came to an end with the Quicksilver Hourglass module from #123. I knew it would be so as soon as I saw the module, and I was so excited to run it!
I replaced the demigod with The Elder (male half-fiend human evolved vampire sorcerer 19/blood magus 10/master vampire 3). The Hourglass itself was actually a pocket dimension constructed by The Elder and his servants, which housed his adamantine coffin and the coffins of his most powerful vampire subordinates. The portal to this domain was found in Loviatar's realm of the Barrens of Doom and Despair, atop a frozen, wind-swept glacier guarded by powerful gelugon lords.
I did away with the time effect, and I also removed the advanced blackstone gigant. With four slam attacks that won't miss without a natty 1 and a fort save of 50 against being turned to stoned, it would have wasted the party. The half-fiend cleric (Loviatar... the Elder served Loviatar, btw) and the two vampires made excellent servants for The Elder. A perfect fit.
The glooms had actually been hunting the PCs since their slaying of Vlaakith (the latest of many assassin teams sent for either revenge or money). They made such excellent slayers. They came close to assassinating the barbarian before the spellcasters took their turns and unleashed hell. Glooms are the ultimate assassins. One of the best monsters in the epic book. The five levels of invisible blade was an awesome touch. *claps*
The advanced colossal black dragon with the three heads didn't stand a chance against the focused power of the heroes.
The Elder's final chamber was a vast pit of blood, with his adamantine coffin resting on a pedestal in the center. The Acererak atropal bathed and splashed in the blood like an irritated infant, while blood animotes (Libris Mortis) surged and pulsed like living waves. Thick chains hung from the rafters high above, ending in gory hooks, and kytons swung and jeered from the shadows above. The battle was...
Flab, dont listen to him, it's all lies! I have no idea what the hourglass even is!
Ok fine, I was going to run it but I guess Crust warped it enough for you to have no idea what it is about yet... bah, were's my memory erasing device.
So you're a 20th level wizard going into epic? My advice is to stay with wizard, PERIOD. Epic level play is all about the epic feats, and the only class that gets more epic feats than the wizard is the fighter. I'm not sure why the others are ignoring this fact about epic play but multiclassing at epic is as much a double-edged sword as it is in lower level play. By multiclassing into a rogue or monk, you will become more versatile (with all those new abilities) but you'll become less powerful (cuz it'll be difficult to use your new stuff in conjunction with your old stuff).
Also, an important note on Epic Spellcasting: a lot of people seem to think that epic spells are just bigger and badder versions of regular spells but they're not. Epic spells are meant to be unique spells that have unique effects--not better effects. Just do the math with a Seed (energy) spell: a nonepic spell will do tremendously more damage while the epic spell allows the lesser damage to be dealt in new ways or circumstances.
In summation, if you're just looking to boost your power level and powergame, continue your wizard levels. Take Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Metamagic, Intensify Spell, Enhance Spell, Multispell, Epic Spell Focus, Epic Spell Penetration...
I can't believe I didn't mention this in my previous post, but...
That epic campaign came to an end with the Quicksilver Hourglass module from #123. I knew it would be so as soon as I saw the module, and I was so excited to run it!
The author of that adventure was posted a few months ago. I told him how much I enjoyed his adventure and he said he'd write and submit more. Here's to hoping.
So you're a 20th level wizard going into epic? My advice is to stay with wizard, PERIOD. Epic level play is all about the epic feats, and the only class that gets more epic feats than the wizard is the fighter.
In summation, if you're just looking to boost your power level and powergame, continue your wizard levels. Take Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Metamagic, Intensify Spell, Enhance Spell, Multispell, Epic Spell Focus, Epic Spell Penetration...
Good ideas. It depends on the build. My old PCs make a fine example:
The elf wizard 26/arch mage 2 (he wanted mastery of elements and mastery of shaping) often made use of empowered/admixed (sonic) chain lightnings. He could modify the base element to whatever was useful at the moment, and tack on that extra sonic damage (as most creatures are affected by sonic damage). He also used time stop a lot to buff up, and always had empowered/quickened spells on hand. Improved spell capacity is the way to go. He didn't tale epic spellcasting. As you say, those are unique spells, and he didn't like any of them, and we (honestly) didn't want to get into crafting spells from scratch.
The gnome sorcerer/rogue/arcane trickster used arcane preparation and quicken to deadly effect, which took on greater proportions when he gained multispell. He took it twice, allowing him to unleash four force orbs (or scorching rays) in one round PLUS an impromptu sneak. Granted, he couldn't do this all day long, but it came in handy against those "boss" monsters.
For epic clerics, permanent emanation is a must. The human cleric 22 of Mystra/spellfire channeler 4/paladin 2 took permanent emanation twice (repulsion and anti-life shell). These two emanations rendered the cleric virtually untouchable. Not like his AC wasn't in the upper 50s anyway. He was a tank in battle as well, so the enemies were being done a favor. ;)
In summation, if you're just looking to boost your power level and powergame, continue your wizard levels. Take Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Metamagic, Intensify Spell, Enhance Spell, Multispell, Epic Spell Focus, Epic Spell Penetration...
Well I plan to take it to level 35 and I will give you a hint that getting your spell to hit is much more important then big nasty hellballs or whatever...
Also, did you mention your a wildmage to? That can make big impacts.
[QUOTE="Crust"For epic clerics, permanent emanation is a must. The human cleric 22 of Mystra/spellfire channeler 4/paladin 2 took permanent emanation twice (repulsion and anti-life shell). These two emanations rendered the cleric virtually untouchable. Not like his AC wasn't in the upper 50s anyway. He was a tank in battle as well, so the enemies were being done a favor. ;)
And don't forget Permanent Emanation (Antimagic Field) -- you can suppress or restart your aura as a free action, so it never inhibits spellcasting and provides immunity to magical effects other than Epic Spells. And, obviously, it can be turned off when you're not fighting spellcasters. It always struck me as being a bit on the cheese-y side (albeit not so cheese-y as applying the same feat to End of Strife from the BoED), so I've stayed away from it, but it bears mentioning.
And don't forget Permanent Emanation (Antimagic Field) -- you can suppress or restart your aura as a free action, so it never inhibits spellcasting and provides immunity to magical effects other than Epic Spells. And, obviously, it can be turned off when you're not fighting spellcasters. It always struck me as being a bit on the cheese-y side (albeit not so cheese-y as applying the same feat to End of Strife from the BoED), so I've stayed away from it, but it bears mentioning.
End of Strife. I dreaded letting the cleric look at the Vile Deeds book, but we decided that the spell would do more harm than good as an emanation.
Anti-magic can certainly work. However, with the group we had, it wasn't the best choice. The party was 3/4 spellcasters. No one wanted to surpress their own magic, as the PCs were often more powerful magically than their opponents. Also, being a cleric of Mystra, no one saw any reason for him to want to surpress the Weave. ;)
With the combo of repulsion and anti-life, living creatures are obviously hedged out (barring any spell resistance), and all other creatures must beat a will save (which I think was 27 at its peak) or be hedged out (unless a spell resistance interferes). Those two wards stacked became very useful. The cleric could move about the battlefield and usually do whatever he wanted (heal, buff, ressurect, banish, etc.). It was also very useful when the group faced hordes of devils or undead (or anything that wouldn't provide experience). The repulsion would just hedge them out, and we'd avoid a 20 minute battle! The fact that lesser monsters couldn't even approach the cleric usually caused them to run away if possible. And besides, anything that DID get through had to deal with the cleric. ;)
I have had a real bad experience with the Epic Level Handbook. Tracking across water? Spontaneously healing hitpoints each round like a supernatural creature for no reason? Instant +10 bonuses to skills? Yuck.
The system suffers two problems which are a complete paradox to me. On one hand the feats are just stupid-cheesy full of stuff you should NEVER be able to do without going and taking a shower to get the icky feeling to go away. On the other hand you'd expect that post-epic characters would have unlocked special class abilities that are totally different and awesome, but no its just more of the same--blarg.
Again you'd imagine another 9 levels of spells, right? But no, just a cheesy feat to be able to do seed magic. Not that I don't like seed magic, mind you--I just wish it was a special ability of the archmage class, and that you got to pick one at a time rather than just *bing* knowing all of it in one big confusing lump.
Likewise you imagine epic levels mean making artifacts finally, right? Nope. You just get to have magic items with slightly higher numerical bonuses to most of the same old tired abilities.
Yet on the other hand it's all about these loopy retarded feats that let you do things you should never be allowed to do, and dumb ways around the only limitations that have ever made the high level hit point system ever make sense (save or die, death by massive damage, etc.) in the form of yet more clunk to get in the way of the game.
My suggestion for epic levels? Get some good high power prestige classes and buy up your magic items with all the gold you have lying around using the standard rules. The resulting character will have more flavor and will be a heckova' lot better in the long run.
Then again, the results of a character rolling a 60 on an intimidate check? Priceless.
In summation, if you're just looking to boost your power level and powergame, continue your wizard levels. Take Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Metamagic, Intensify Spell, Enhance Spell, Multispell, Epic Spell Focus, Epic Spell Penetration...Well I plan to take it to level 35 and I will give you a hint that getting your spell to hit is much more important then big nasty hellballs or whatever...
Also, did you mention your a wildmage to? That can make big impacts.
Oh yeah....forgot to mention i'm a wildmage. But I didn't actually think I would want to stay a wild mage. They really aren't all that. A few of their abilitys however are neat. I didn't think I would want to stay a wild mage. But after hearing Tequila Sunrise, multiclassing seems a bit of a bad idea. I didn't know that perstige classes get epic but I looked it up and i'm gonna continue into the wild mage class. Epic will be intresting. And Onrie I didn't read crust earlier post with all of the spoilers.
Flabulater OUT!
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I played in a long-running epic game in FR as a cleric if Kelemvor. Now, trying to recall my various stats and feat choices...
I was mostly cleric with 5 levels heirophant for the increased caster level and using touch spells at range (very handy once again). I agree that unless your ideal character is dual-classed you should stick with one basic class into the epic levels, otherwise you tend to fall behind in terms of effectiveness.
My feat selection included Permanent Emination: Repel Vermin, Automatic Silent Spellx3, Epic Spellcasting, Improved Metamagic x2, Quicken Spell, Maximize Spell, Still Spell, Intensify Spell, and Improved Spell Capacity x4 along with others. A good wall is an Intensified Blade Barrier, I often say. I also took some improvements to Turn Undead, which shored up some of the skipped cleric levels.
Epic spellcasting is fun for the creative possibilities it allows a player. For example, my cleric had discovered that for some time, it was hard for him or the other spellcasters to affect rogues who took the epic feats allowing Reflex saves in place of Fort and Will. In answer, he created an epic spell with a fairly low Spellcraft check that caused Blindness and a -20 to Dexterity for one minute, with a highly difficult save. Tailor-making spells that personalize your magic-user can be very rewarding. Of course, you don't have to wait for epic levels to design your own spells, but make sure you check with your DM before using them.
I know the list of feats I provided above might seem daunting, but the game was very well ran for as high level as we played, the monsters were certainly still challenging, and I did not play the most powerful spellcaster of the group. That tribute goes to our Sor/Ftr/Eldritch Knight/Archmage. Her delight is a chained-intensified Enervation.