I want to take it out.
I understand the idea behind making this possible, specifically with the Paladin, but it is a major problem for my games. No one can be surprisingly evil, it is hard to hide the one evil cultist, etc. Not just the paladin, but all classes. Surprises are more difficult to spring.
The dilemma in removing this is that it creates some problems. It seems that removing this would require removing Protection/Circle Against spells because they would indicate alignment. So I was curious for some suggestions.
Do I limit this to monsters/outsiders? Maybe allow protection but don't tell the PCs. Ideas?
Players Handbook: Mommy, Mommy! There are anti-divinitation spells coming out of my ass.
DMG: That's okay sweetie, most people won't notice them because the PCs don't have to use them often.
Sorry if that's a little over sarcastic, but Undetectable Alignment is a first level spell for bards and a second level spell for clerics and paladins. That makes it alot easier to hide evil alignments, and there's lots more spells for wizards and sorcerers who only have a very faint aura until tenth level, because Detect Evil is a divinitation spell and there are plenty of ways to stop divinitation spells.
If worst comes to worst, simply give them an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location or, better yet, a custom made item that provides a continous Undetectable Alignment effect.
Again, sorry if I was a little sarcastic ^_^.
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I want to take it out.
I understand the idea behind making this possible, specifically with the Paladin, but it is a major problem for my games. No one can be surprisingly evil, it is hard to hide the one evil cultist, etc. Not just the paladin, but all classes. Surprises are more difficult to spring.
The dilemma in removing this is that it creates some problems. It seems that removing this would require removing Protection/Circle Against spells because they would indicate alignment. So I was curious for some suggestions.
Do I limit this to monsters/outsiders? Maybe allow protection but don't tell the PCs. Ideas?
I have thought about that too; even one step further because I am about to start a city-based campaign. Therefore I seriously think about not allowing charm person or charm spells in general.
Anyway - Protection/Circle spells you can change into Protection vs. enemies. This seems kind of too general, but during play it might not be a factor. The protection spell just protects one from the enemy.Of course, there are always alignment obscuring items, but in the end not every cultmember can have such an item. So your wish is understandable.
You could rule, that if such a detection is made, the target gets a wisdom check in order to realize it, and if that so, allow a save or bonus on the save.
Limiting it to monsters or outsiders will still leave the problem of the cultist.
I once had a DM who took it out (2E) and it worked really good. We never experienced a drawback.
Another note, in most settings it's not illegal to be evil so when the PCs start butchering random people in the street that's just what they've been doing, butchering random people in the street, not smiting evil.
The only time this doesn't apply is when an Evil NPC is infiltrating a group that has alignment based abilities like paladins and clerics, but such people have access to Undetectable Alignment so...
A varient usage of Nystul's Magic Aura (1st level sorcerer/wizard spell) to make a non-magical item radiate good could disguise the character who wore it's alignment.
If you do end up taking away the detect evil class feature of a paladin, be sure to be more leniant when they associate with evil NPCs and accidently kill good NPCs that get in their way.
Keep in mind the specifics of the paladins code. They are not allowed to knowingly associate with evil people, and they must protect the weak and defenseless. Nothing states that they must erradicate evil upon sight.
Often times we assume that evil people are the kind who commit vile acts just for the sake of commiting them and who murder and pilage without remorse. Sure these people are evil, however there are plenty of evil people who aren't covered by this description.
Remember that there are many types of evil, for example, such traits as arrogance, greed, prejudice, apathy, lust and rage can lead someone to be evil. Just because people with these traits have become evil doesn't neccessarily mean that they pose a physical threat to inocent civilians. There are many evil people who have never broken a law in their lives. Keeping in mind that paladins must respect legitimate authority and can't go about slaughtering people in the streets as has been stated.
Thus there is a line that must be drawn by paladins as to when they will act and when they will withold action. "sure those orcs may kill people in the future, but they havn't yet. Does the possiblity of future misdeed give me the right to destroy them?" What will the paladin do if upon discovering the cult learns that they havn't commited any crimes or even have legal protection!
However, if the cult needs to be hidden, or at least hide its true intentions, there are plenty of ways to do that. Anti divination magic is a difinate possibility. Also, there may be neutral members of the cult who are used as "front men" to convince the rest of the world of their good intentions, or at least, not evil intentions.
Anyhow, not trying to spark a philiosphical debate here, just saying that there are pleny of reasons that paladins can't or won't kill someone who they know to be evil.
BTW, what is the exact nature of this cult?
To jam a little on Sel Carim's riff here's the solution I use. You detect evil in a bar, and a fat two thirds of the bar give off a signature. There's a lot of people who are not malignantly dangerous, but are nonetheless evil--particularly in big greed-based cities where personal profit is the biggest morality people adhere to. I love the idea of red herring badguys who seem like they're up to something, but are completely unrelated to the adventure at hand, though could tie in in a suprising way.
More to the point however, I wonder if it might work if detection spells were made as an opposed Sense Motive booster versus the evil character's Bluff akin to how Spellcraft is rolled to determine the nature of magical effects. That way it still exists, but it requires wisdom and knowledge of the heart to be able to interpret. Likewise characters that are evil get Will saves to breech alignment screening spells so you can't be quite as sure as you would normally be. There might be a modifier one way or another for those whose magical auras are particularly strong or weak. That's my first attempt to stab at the problem. Let me know what you think.
Undetectable Alignment is a first level spell for bards and a second level spell for clerics and paladins.
If worst comes to worst, simply give them an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location or, better yet, a custom made item that provides a continous Undetectable Alignment effect.
So your suggestion is that every villain be a spellcaster, or have the exact same magic item?
I'm looking for a non-cheesy fix on a problem I'm having here. I want to maybe change the fact. Sure, they could hide it- but should they have to? What is someone doesn't think of themselves as evil, but their alignment is? Should there be a way to do this, or shouldn't PCs be able to work it out on their own.
Dryder: The thing with Charm spells is that they do have DCs, and casting spells is rarely a thing you can hide. Maybe you should make the NPCs call them out when they start spellcasting, or have rules on spellcasting in city limits. So that way, in certain situations it could fly, but not otherwise. And I imagine such folk would be ready or used to such tactics.
More to the point however, I wonder if it might work if detection spells were made as an opposed Sense Motive booster versus the evil character's Bluff akin to how Spellcraft is rolled to determine the nature of magical effects. That way it still exists, but it requires wisdom and knowledge of the heart to be able to interpret.
That's pretty good.
Likewise characters that are evil get Will saves to breech alignment screening spells so you can't be quite as sure as you would normally be.
I do like this. We could leave it in for when I need to let them know who is evil, but the Will save would ward off alot of problems. Let em meditate on it.
I agree with Luke on this one. Having evil folks with the same or similar anti-scry magic pretty damn silly.
I did away with the whole issue by having all the good paladins in my campaign go door-to-door and kill all the evil people (from infants up to the sagely), and folks who ran (they probably ran because they were evil, and resisting lawful arrest is probably evil), and anyone who tried to save the above mentioned folks (because doing so promotes evil). Neutral folks where locked up in work camps so that they might better serve the cause of good and not selfish or evil ends (which of course is evil). Bimonthy screenings mean evil doen't get the chance to grow. This was all given the backing of the good townspeople and their lawful king who knowing paladins, and clerics of good gods can detect such things decided that for the common good this was all for the best. Now only deranged outcasts, strangers, foreigners, and dungeon-dwelling monsters even have the chance of being evil.
There isn't that good?
GGG
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I have thought about that too; even one step further because I am about to start a city-based campaign. Therefore I seriously think about not allowing charm person or charm spells in general.
I ran a thieves guild campaign in a city, but rather than take out spells like charm person, I made sure the players knew that casting them was highly illegal. In fact, magic in general was illegal unless you were licensed by the local wizards guild. Needless to say, my players were not licensed, and they spent a lot of energy staying out of the way of the law.
Weapons and armor were also illegal in the city unless you were a knight (i.e., a noble with the proper credentials to enable you to wield such items). Again, this caused the players to invest in disguised armor and weapons, or stash weapons and armor in safe houses and only bust them out when they had some serious "business" to do.
As for the OP, I say take it out Luke. I'd probably have evil outsiders be effected by circle of pro evil and such, but deemphasizing alignment generally makes for a more enjoyably game IMO.
Alignment Detection: I handle this with my group by making it a big taboo.
* First, casting a spell is a fairly obvious action. So is using a Spell-like Ability; the effort of using a standard action is noticable, even if there are no verbal or somatic components.
* Second, casting /any/ spell on someone without permission is a hostile act, and anyone would be perfectly within their rights to attack the caster over it. If nothing else, it will shift the NPC's attitude to unfriendly or hostile, hindering the party's efforts in many cases.
* Third, it's highly unlikely that anyone's just going to /let/ someone cast a spell on them; it's just too easy to lie about what spell you're using.
* Finally, given that unwanted magical influence is considered a hostile action by so many, there are likely laws against it. Paladins are not given leave to detect evil as they please unless they're part of some organization with that privelage. Same goes for anyone else.
While that may not cover all situations, it /will/ make them think twice if they have to worry about fines, jail time, or worse. Plus, the Paladin's Code prevents him from disobeying the law in most instances. Also, I like the concept of "Active Morality" in Dragonstar. In short, it doesn't matter if someone's evil. If they've done nothing wrong and you attack them, you're the one in the wrong.
Protection from Alignment: Nothing in the spell's description says that a Protection from Alignment spell of any kind grants knowledge of a creature's alignment. Nor does it say that the caster knows whether or not their opponent is even affected by the spell. My suggestion is not to tell them. Don't tell them of any bonuses or penalties provided by the spell, and they won't be any wiser to the creature's alignment.
You could take a look at Arcana Evolved. Monte Cooke removed all the alignment based aspects of the game from this setting.
I agree, take it OUT. I favor the hack-n-slash element of the game, but what role-playing I can tolerate is obliterated if the PC's know from the get-go who's a villain and who isn't.
The points Xellan posted are extremely valuable in moderating the effects of detections. And, yes, there are many ways for a savvy enemy to disguise his true nature, though having every key foe utilize them is a bit cheap.
I had previously decided that Detect Alignment spells only detected the presence of evil acts within the last month or so. I believe I set a base chance of 10% +1% per HD, plus any conditional modifiers the DM saw pertinant (automatically worked on undead, evil outsiders and evil priests). That way you coulnd't tell if you hadn't detected evil because the target hadn't done anything, or because he wasn't evil. Or maybe it was +1% per caster level... I lost my notes, and can't remember.
However, it's infinitely better to simply make them give a bonus (+5 or +10) to Sense Motive checks made when dealing with evil creatures, or to allow a special Sense Motive check with a +5 bonus (opposed by a standard Bluff check, though possible modifiers could apply, such as a bonus to the Bluff if the party would really want this person to not be evil; i.e., a master they had known for ages and were convinced was good) to detect if the target was evil or not.
Even simpler and possibly the best solution of all is to stick on a saving throw. Detect Thoughts gets one; this is possibly more potent in many situations than that spell.
Now, this is generally used with Enchantments, but also applies to Detect Thoughts, so I think it would stick here as well. When you make a save against an effect that deals with or probes one's mind, you have some sense that such an effect was used against you. So, if they made the save, not only do you not know if they are evil or not, and not only do they probably know you cast a spell on them, but they know that you tried to do something with their mind. I would make any NPC automatically go AT LEAST unfriendly, and most likely hostile.
Now, if you have a problem with the alignment system in general and want to move towards scrapping it, great. I personally don't have any qualms with it. But if all you want is to make Detects a little less powerful, something that I support whole heartedly, the simpler solution of changing the spell to a basic skill check, or the even simpler solution of giving the spell a save DC, combined with realizing the problems using such magic presents, along with all the options to throw off divinations, and they are hardly a sure-fire way to sniff out evil wherever it lies, yet the option can remain powerful in many situations and valuable to the classes that possess the ability.