Hi folks,
Just wondering... if at the end of the duration of a Summon Monster spell, a summoned creature is in a grapple with a character, would that character be dragged back to the creature's home plane?
For example, let's say that a fiendish monstrous scorpion has won an opposed grapple check and has a halfing in one of its claws when the spell duration expires... will the halfling automatically be dragged back to the creature's home plane? Would the halfling be entitled some sort of saving throw?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions... and if there's an "official ruling" on this question that I missed, I would be grateful if you would point me in the right direction!
Cheers!
No, that would require a Plane Shift-like ability. The creature would simply dissappear- unravel into fog, blink out of existence, be wrenched through a glowing portal, however you describe it, the summond creature would go and would not take the grappled character with him. That's also the case in other situations- say if one were grappling with a demon and a cleric ally of yours cast banishment on the demon. You don't get wrenched back to the Abyss with your foe.
No, that would require a Plane Shift-like ability. The creature would simply dissappear- unravel into fog, blink out of existence, be wrenched through a glowing portal, however you describe it, the summond creature would go and would not take the grappled character with him. That's also the case in other situations- say if one were grappling with a demon and a cleric ally of yours cast banishment on the demon. You don't get wrenched back to the Abyss with your foe.
Thanks Saern... and I suspect my players would want to thank you too, as my instinct would have been to rule the opposite.
No, that would require a Plane Shift-like ability. The creature would simply dissappear- unravel into fog, blink out of existence, be wrenched through a glowing portal, however you describe it, the summond creature would go and would not take the grappled character with him. That's also the case in other situations- say if one were grappling with a demon and a cleric ally of yours cast banishment on the demon. You don't get wrenched back to the Abyss with your foe.Thanks Saern... and I suspect my players would want to thank you too, as my instinct would have been to rule the opposite.
One expects that sort of thing to be in the Spell Description. Generally speaking if a spell or other ability has a side effect that banishes you to The Nine Hells for all eternity there is some kind of a warning or statement to that effect.
While there are definitly gaps in the RAW they are not usually mamoth holes that one can drive an 18 wheeler through. The rule writers did not simply forget to mention that the characters get plane shifted. It was never there in the first place.
Imagine how powerful that spell would be if it was able to drag people to other planes. You'd use it to travel to these other planes on the cheep (I summon a Unicorn and she jumps on top of me - then we go to paradise) or to drag creatures away. I mean the grappling swarm of summoned monsters meant to drag a Great Wyrm to another Plane (any plane will do as long as the terrifying beast vanishes and leaves its horde here for us to loot).
I'd be careful about making such rulings as a DM. Keep in mind that once you establish that something works like X in your campaign your players will want it to keep working that way for them too. No need to make Monster Summoning I such a powerful spell without careful thought.
One expects that sort of thing to be in the Spell Description. Generally speaking if a spell or other ability has a side effect that banishes you to The Nine Hells for all eternity there is some kind of a warning or statement to that effect.
While there are definitly gaps in the RAW they are not usually mamoth holes that one can drive an 18 wheeler through. The rule writers did not simply forget to mention that the characters get plane shifted. It was never there in the first place.
Imagine how powerful that spell would be if it was able to drag people to other planes. You'd use it to travel to these other planes on the cheep (I summon a Unicorn and she jumps on top of me - then we go to paradise) or to drag creatures away. I mean the grappling swarm of summoned monsters meant to drag a Great Wyrm to another Plane (any plane will do as long as the terrifying beast vanishes and leaves its horde here for us to loot).
I'd be careful about making such rulings as a DM. Keep in mind that once you establish that something works like X in your campaign your players will want it to keep working that way for them too. No need to make Monster Summoning I such a powerful spell without careful thought.
Good point, Jeremy. I hadn't thought that far ahead, possibly because my games tend to be low magic and monster summonings are fairly rare. My group consists of fairly inexperienced players with level 1 characters (and this will be the first time I DM 3.0/3.5), including only one arcane caster (who thus far is focussing primarily on comprehend languages and divinations), so that may be why I hadn't considered the potential for abuse.
But I'm definitely going to follow the logic you and Saern presented, it makes sense... And although the possibility of dragging PCs to another plane would have been great for dramatic effect, it definitely would be a rather extreme threat for a group of 1st level characters to face!
Thanks again to you both for taking the time to share your thoughts on this.
My advice to all new DMs (welcome to the fold too!) is to listen to what the rules DO say and nevermind what they DON'T say.
My advice to all new DMs (welcome to the fold too!) is to listen to what the rules DO say and nevermind what they DON'T say.
Good advice, that.
I'll just throw in a couple of coppers and note that as often as not what the rules don't say they don't say for a reason.
Although creating a spell in which a summoned creature can grapple and pull things across dimensions would be cool. But, you'd have to word the description right so that you avoid the potential pitfalls listed by Jeremy above. Or make it so high level/dangerous that normal plane shifting is, by far, more preferable. You could also just make a creature, possibly an ooze (Plane Ooze? Dimension Ooze?) that has this as a special ability, and that might make for a fun encounter or two.
I didn't think summoned creatures were actually extraplanar beings - I thought they were "created on the spot" by the spell. Otherwise, wouldn't they be subject to Banishment?
Nevermind - I actually *read* the Summon Monster spell desc. and have come to the conclusion that - I am an idiot. ;D
Although creating a spell in which a summoned creature can grapple and pull things across dimensions would be cool. But, you'd have to word the description right so that you avoid the potential pitfalls listed by Jeremy above. Or make it so high level/dangerous that normal plane shifting is, by far, more preferable. You could also just make a creature, possibly an ooze (Plane Ooze? Dimension Ooze?) that has this as a special ability, and that might make for a fun encounter or two.
I never really considered the difference between the effects of monster summoning spells and plane shifting for the simple reason that I have only played/DMed very sporadically over the years, and have never had a party make it beyond level 3! And no, it isn't because I'm a murderous DM... it's only because life/work/studies always seem to pull our group in different directions, so every campaign comes to an abrupt and untimely end, and by the time we're ready topick up again, a new edition of the game has been released (I started DMing with the old red box about 20 years ago)! All that just to say that I never read far ahead in the rule books, especially where high level spells are concerned, so I never even read about plane shifting until now (my campaigns also tend to be low magic)... so I do appreciate the input of the posters on this thread.
For now, I'll just stick to the 2nd level kobold sorcerer summoning the standard fiendish monstrous scorpions, spiders, dire rats, etc., against the 1st level party, no sense in increasing the danger level with the threat of being dragged back through a portal.