I really enjoyed the series of articles in Dungeon/Dragon about getting along without X (where X is the Rogue, or the Cleric, etc). I was wondering if you'd all be willing to share tips and tricks from the other side of the fence - as the DM. Do you tweak, or not tweak, and how, depending on the character classes in your player groups?
I currently GM for three groups.
The first doesn't require a whole lot of tweaking: They include a human male exalted monk with the vow of poverty, a human male rogue/fighter/tempest/dervish, an elf male cleric/divine disciple, and a half-elf male sorcerer/force missile mage/argent savant. They're all at around 14th level now, and the only tweaking I often have to worry about is the flexibility of wizardly/arcane spells - they have nearly none, though the cleric did pick up the Magic domain, and now scrolls are one way around this for them. The prestige class also cut into the cleric's ability to properly turn undead, so I sometimes tweak the undead encounters a little bit (either lower CRs but more of them, or scaling back a bit on the toughness of one big fella).
The second group is a gestalt character one for when three of us meet up (we rotate GMing there, which is fun, though I've got the main storyline, and they fill in gaps): We play a human male Rogue/Warlock; a half-orc male Fighter/Cleric of Obad'Hai, and a human male Wizard/Spirit Shaman. They've only hit 2nd level, but the gestalt thing has been a hit so far - the tweaking is more about numbers of enemies rather than total EL or CR. That, and treasure seems to be a minor issue - everyone seems to find everything useful, so it's harder to place items for each character specifically.
Last group is for the Shackled City campaign, and I'm having the hardest time with them: Human Male Druid 9, Human Female Rogue 3/Diviner 5 (aiming for Arcane Trickster), Human Male Cleric 4/Fighter 4/Radiant Servant of Pelor 1, Human Male Fighter 6, Human Male Rogue 5/Diviner 1. They've also got the Druid's former wolf animal companion, who is awakened now and his follower (Wolf Scout 4). Their lack of higher level cleric spells is mostly mitigated by the Druid, but they're really lacking for the arcane oomph - and although the Arcane Trickster will now keep gaining spell levels - the lack of automatically gained wizard spells is going to hurt, especially mid-adventure. Scrolls aren't super common in the Shackled City series, and time to scribe them into spellbooks is similarly tight during chapters. I'm tempted to apprentice her to a wizard at the Academy, and have spells in her spellbook scribed for her ahead of time by her master, and she'll have to cope with making Spellcraft checks to prepare them until such time as she can copy them into her own spellbook.
So - how do you all deal with such things?
Your such a kind DM.
Personally I don't deal with these issues. Not my area of responsibility. This for my players to work out among themselves however they choose. If they choose poorly they can reconsider their options after the TPK. That said I don't even really consider their strengths or weakness when preparing adventures. Generally preparing adventures involves upgrading a favourite Dungeon adventure to 3.5 so I'm not aiming at their weak points either I'm simply trying to remain true to my source material and the campaign world as a whole.
Possibly partly because of this I have actually never really had to deal with this issue. My players cover their bases - I'm not stepping in to ease up on them and help them were they are weak so they know it. So they make sure not to be lacking in a critical area. Of course I have 6 players - its obviously a hell of a lot easier to make sure all the bases are covered when there are spare characters to cover them.
If I only had three characters then I probably would not actively step in but I'd be putting higher level characters through lower level dungeons and hence there would be more chance for the players to get something like a high use magic skill and take on the roll of a divine caster or alternately the players would be enough higher in levels that the Rogue could spare a level or two for Cleric, in order to use divine magic - like the ubiquitous Wand of Cure Light Wounds and the Mage could aim to be a Mystic Theurge etc.
Your such a kind DM.
Personally I don't deal with these issues. Not my area of responsibility. This for my players to work out among themselves however they choose. If they choose poorly they can reconsider their options after the TPK.
Amen. Unless I'm running a non-standard game (like political intrigue), the players should know that their party requires certain roles and can fend for themselves.
Both as a player and a DM I tend to favor atypical groups. Running a "generic adventurer" group has its moments but on the other hand it both makes more sense to me and tend to be more interesting to have a group with only clerics and paladins, or only mages, or only gnomes...I mean, where do these generic groups meet? Do they hang out in an inn when a hooded stranger comes and asks if they want to do a mission for him?
So I definitely tweak. Mages perform well in one or two battle encounters but after that they have problems...clerics can go through numerous smaller encounters but anything too big just hack them to pieces.
Having some kind of self-imposed limitation is also a good way for interesting and memorable campaign...that one Cyberpunk campaign where everyone was playing a ditzy model was a barrel of laugh even though any serious adventure would definitely had put that campaign to a quick and messy end.
Atypical groups can work particularly well as long as you're not in a heavy dungeon setting with much combat - Eberron, for example, places greater emphasis on investigation, which is why you can waste a valuable party slot with an artificer without being in trouble.
If you are running high combat, it's generally a good idea to at least meet all the party roles.
Most other classes are either simple variants of these, or are a mixture between the two, or do not fit the role at all.
Now, if you have much dungeoneering and combat, you must consider that the party will have a weak spot if it doesn't cover all the main slots. As a DM, what I'd do is encourage players to take Leadership in order to fill the missing role; or else have an NPC follow them to cover that field. Alternatively, take on a style of play that emphasises other aspects (character, plot, investigation) rather than combat.
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I agree with Johnathan, here, and will admit that many of my recent parties have been rather atypical of late, often lacking a strong healer, which leads to the return to my preference of Vitality & Wound.
/shameless plug for Vitality/Wound
Given that there are over 40 classes in 3.5, a party certainly has a plethora of options, and I think as long as they keep to the roles Johnathan outlined, they'll turn out fairly alright.
I've got a wizard, bard/ranger, fighter, psion, and paladin in my current group, so besides a bit of rogueish skills being missed (artificer, ninja, scout, rogue, beguiler), they cover the bases fairly well :).
We'll see how well they surive Red Hand of Doom...
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Their lack of higher level cleric spells is mostly mitigated by the Druid, but they're really lacking for the arcane oomph - and although the Arcane Trickster will now keep gaining spell levels - the lack of automatically gained wizard spells is going to hurt, especially mid-adventure. Scrolls aren't super common in the Shackled City series, and time to scribe them into spellbooks is similarly tight during chapters.
Err, just as an aside, an Arcane Trickster based on a Wizard would still get two free spells per level, just as one based on a Sorceror would continue to learn new spells per the base class's progression.
I would do some tweaking, But I also wouldn't allow so much. I never let a PC take more than one prestige class, though I don't know if it is expressly forbidden in the rules. It can present alot of problems. And Gestalt characters are, to me, one of the more overpowered mechanics in the game.
If the group lacks something, I generally will help them as much as they help themselves. If they really try to find a way to fix a hole, i am more likely to cooperate. But I am not going to throw my whole gameplan out so they can run non-core classes, if they make no attempt to fill the hole.
In the end, the game is about everyone having fun. I try to present tough, challenging games, but also cater to everyone's tastes, or special classes. For the most part, if the PCs seem intereste din runnign weird stuff, I will let them as long as they try to make it work for themselves. I dislike them telling me "too bad, we don't want to play a healer." Any amount of ingenuity should be rewarded.
Err, just as an aside, an Arcane Trickster based on a Wizard would still get two free spells per level, just as one based on a Sorceror would continue to learn new spells per the base class's progression.
Gaining free spells each level is a Wizard ability; I honestly thought that all you gain with prestige classes such as Arcane Trickster was effective caster level (granted, Sorcerers gain access to new spells as well as the caster level, but I thought the "learn free spells" was a Wizard class level gain ability, not just part of their effective caster level).
I'll admit, I have the worst source as a reason for backing this: video games. In Neverwinter Nights, for example, when you gain a prestige class, no automatic pick of spells happens. But I have no idea if there's an official mention of this anywhere in any of the source books - but when I read it, it always sounded to me that all those "+1 caster level" prestige classes did was give you more ability to cast (as a wizard), not the free spells you get for gaining a wizard level...
Gaining free spells each level is a Wizard ability; I honestly thought that all you gain with prestige classes such as Arcane Trickster was effective caster level (granted, Sorcerers gain access to new spells as well as the caster level, but I thought the "learn free spells" was a Wizard class level gain ability, not just part of their effective caster level).
There has been quite a bit of debate about this on various forums. You are correct in that the rules for learning a new spell is listed under the Spellbook class feature, not the Spells class feature. You are also correct that the "+1 level of existing class feature" states:
When a new X level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained ... except for an increased effective level of casting.
[\quote]Personally, I don't have a problem with allowing them those few extra spells, but I've seen DMs that don't allow it. Since most wizard characters I've seen are quick to learn every spell they can get their hands on, I don't think it makes much of a difference. YMMV.
Not to change the subject, but vitality/wound sounds really really familiar...what were the basics of that system?
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As I DM for many years now, I see it as a challenge for me and the players to have atypical groups. In the past I was worried when there wasn't, for example, a cleric in the group, but now I find it really interesting to see how the players react to this situation.
Sure, it's way easier if you have a group with the typical core-classes but it's far from impossible to have a successfull group without the certain classes. Sure, if you mostly play published adventures which assume that there're wizards, clerics etc. in the group you might have a hard time, but as a DM I write all the adventures myself and haven't had that much difficulties with the group constellations.
I don't design my adventures with the group constellation in mind. The story's always first. And I can't remember much tweaking in favor of the PC's, but it happens from time to time (but mostly in favor of the story).
Not to change the subject, but vitality/wound sounds really really familiar...what were the basics of that system?
Check it out in the SRD, Freehold. Interesting, I kind of like it - it's used in d20 Star Wars. Vitality points are used to power Force skills. Wound points are equal to your Con score.
Party composition I leave entirely up to the players. Everyone plays what the wish, and it provides new roleplaying challenges for them as well. Creativity can make up for absent skills.
Currently in our AoW campaign we have a psionicist, 1/2 orc fighter/barbarian, warlock, 1/2 dragon temple raider/fighter/thief, 1/2 elven ranger, and 3 mages. Most healing is done by the warlock, with a little help from the psionicist and ranger. The warlock uses wands (eg. restoration) and scrolls (such as Mass Heal). Melee strength falls almost exclusively to the 1/2 orc fighter/barbarian which has resulted in 5 deaths, and subsequent res's to be paid for. The lack of a cleric shows. For such a heavily undead themed AP, this party is getting hit where it hurts most...the coin pouch.
The important thing is they're enjoying playing the characters they wanted to. And they'll live or die depending on their decisions. I run adventures as written most of the time; I see it as the problem exists as is...and it's up to the player to use skills, abilities, items, or good ol' smarts to win through.
J-
Did you say atypical party? How's this: I've run the first adventure of my AoW Eberron campaign. I have six PCs, and added a seventh as one of the player's significant others wished to play as well. Each PC started as 2nd level gestalt characters, with a bonus feat every level instead of 1st, 3rd, etc. We have:
Malharath - LG Male kalashtar paladin 2 (Silver Flame)//soulknife 2 (took the silver soulknife feat); Lanharath - CN Male kalashtar lurk 2//duskblade 2: The two kalashtar twins were brought to Khorvaire by their grandparents at a very early age, on the run it would seem. They remember little of thier homeland; the paladin found the light of the Silver Flame far stronger than that of Il'Yannah (or what little he knew of it), and his brother is very un-kalashtar in his habits, quite changed by growing up in the environment of Diamond Lake instead of a kalashtar enclave somewhere. The two brother are quite reliant on one another, very empathic; they even both took the Gestalt Anchor feat.
Kessler - LG Male human cleric 2 (Silver Flame)// monk 2: Mark of Sentinel, unattached to the house, quite an involved background.
Timison - CN Male human artificer 2//wizard 2: Mark of Making, Cannith apprentice, works at a Cannith-approved magewright smithy that replaces the mundane one established in the Diuamond Lake backdrop article.
Raesgar - N Male dark fey-kissed whisper gnome rogue 2//shadowcaster 2: Mark of Scribing, has an awesome history, more interested in alchemy, posions, and luscious shadowy nymphs that come in the night to kidnap you; if you've read the fey-kissed template in the Book of Templates you have an idea of what I'm talking about and how he has the dark template. At the moment he's in a permanent state of melancholy (thanks to the fey-kissed template), though enjoys tossing alchemist's fire at enemies.
River Champion - CG Male goliath barbarian 2//totemist 2: was hunting the tiger that replaced the wolf encounter in the Whispering Cairn. Another "kindred spirit," similar to the party.
Odell - LN Female human knight 2//fighter 2: followed the three adventurers, Auric, Tirra, and old wizard guy, all the way from Sharn to Diamond Lake, aiming to get back at Tirra (reclaim her honor with a duel) for some wrongdoing, a personal slight it would seem. An early visit to Allustan brought her and the party together.
The game was originally adpated with six PCs in mind, and I decided to leave everything the same even though a seventh PC was joining. Each encounter in the Whispering Cairn was increased to a CR 5, more or less. For example:
- The wolf encounter became an advanced tiger.
- The beetle swarm that floods up the collapsed elevator shaft became Ulavant as a ghast, followed by three of his associates as ghouls (the rest of the bug encounters were changed or removed).
- The insane small water elemental became two insane medium water elementals.
- Artophanx became an advanced half-fiendish medium earth elemental (5 HD).
- I removed the brown mold and instead had the orange paste spilling forth across the same area, providing suitable nutrition for three whip jellies (Tome of Horrors III).
- The lurking strangler became a shadow choker rogue 2 named Iisk, sent into the Cairn Hills by the Faceless One just as the original creature was. Once the group came down, the choker, still hiding, watched them fight with the jellies and then Artophanx, gathering information on these intriguing newcomers before hightailing it out of the Lair of the Architect (now that the PCs have the elevator working again) and heading back towards town to report to its master... the Faceless One will be interested in these adventurers.
- In Alastaor's Haunt, I replaced the grick with an average xorn, bound to the chamber to guard it, and the metal spheres with shifting sand, difficult terrain and random squares of quicksand (the trap still fires iron spheres, but the sand draws the spheres down into funnel-like chutes in the floor that channel the balls back into launch feeds). Devices in the walls stir the sand when an intruder falls into the room, so the device will have to be disabled to dig and search for Alastor's bones.
- I put a tall barn behind the Land's house, and that is where I had the owlbears make their lair. What actually occured was the female owlbear's mate (an advanced male owlbear, brought to CR 6) was out hunting at the time Kullen and Co. arrived to dig up the Land family skeletons. Skutch wandered too close to the barn once they had finished (and stopped for a smoke break), and ended up drawing the ire of the female owlbear prowling inside. Skutch was caught off-gaurd and torn to bits. Kullen and Co. ran when they heard him scream and took their revenge on the female owlbear and her cubs, leaving none alive. They hauled off not only the Land family bones but the corpse of the female owlbear as well, deciding Filge would pay premium for the body. When the PCs arrive, the male owlbear has returned and is suicidal with rage, lashing out at anyone it can detect from its shadowy lair in the barn.
- Kullen is upped to barbarian 5, w/PA & Mad Foam Rager); Rastophan is ranger 4, and lost his animal companion for Distracting Attack; Todrik is fighter 4, and lost the guisarme for a spiked chain; Merovinn became a beguiler 4. These four are battle-scarred mercenaries from the Last War, and convicted criminals on many accounts, ending up in Diamond Lake after they were illegally purchased and put to work in the mines. Smenk saw greater things in their future, however, and put their true talents to good use when ownership of the four passed along to him.
So far the game has been excellent. The encounters are challenging, and there have been some close calls but the party has handled themselves very well so far. I've been counting them as two levels higher than normal for calculating XP, and for the gnome I decided to turn his +2 LA into a 20% XP penalty (10% per +1 LA). I'll lift portions of the penalty as the game goes on and his abilities lessen in usefulness. I've left most of the treasure the same, though Artophanx left behind a chunk of fiendish gold (his heart) worth several hundred.
They should be through the Whispering Cairn in two more sessions (Sunday & Monday, hopefully!), and then it's on to 3FoE, where they'll meet their first gestalt NPC in the Faceless One... >:D
A few favorite movies come to mind where the "party" of heroes is not necessarily balanced:
* Conan the Barbarian: Barbarian/Rogue, Fighter/Rogue & Rogue
* The 13th Warrior: Nothing but fighters, rangers and barbarians
* Excalibur: All fighters and paladins (Merlin is basically a "force of nature")
In all of these movies, outside assistance (from "NPCs") was needed at some point or another but only for clearing away very particular obstacles:
* Conan got raised by the wizard
* The oracle helped Buliwyf to understand what course of action to take
* Merlin neutralized Morgana and by negated their superior numbers with mist allowing for an even fight.
In otherwords, a party composed entirely of rangers, rogues and dread commandos could probably get along just fine in many an adventure. They would rely upon outside assistance to help provide cover, protection or intelligence from other sources perhaps.
One way in which I have made things like this work in my own campaigns is by associating the party with the military or law-enforcement of a city/nation-state. They don't necessarily need to be enlisted troops or officers so much as they need to be deputized.
Once affiliated with the government, the officer they report to assesses the party's abilities and using intel they have on the threat signs off allowing them to requisition particular equipment that is to be returned after the job is done. In addition, because they are now with the military, I can assign NPC specialists to the party that might fill any gaps.
From my perspective it's really not a big deal and the players never complain about getting access to free magic items even if only temporarily.
—Laithoron Aernelóth, aka Michael
Prince of Loch Thallen
Ambassador to the Atani
www.worldsunknown.com
I never tweak, and for a definite reason - it takes away control from the players and takes away from my vision of DM neutrality, kind of like saying "no matter what you do, I'll help you succeed". I prefer my players to be challenged and succeed or fail on their own merits. So I leave it to them to decide what sort of characters and party composition they think will be fun.
My last two campaigns have been great fun, and not the typical party composition. The last one had a Druid, Cleric, and Ranger (the Sorc/Rog left around 6th level), and they did fine to about 13th level+. It's really not an issue if the players are skilled and creative, they can wok with what they've got.
The current campaign started with two druids, a young (ast level) ogre, a monk, and a rogue. One druid multi-classed to wizard (as was always planned), the rogue also multi-classed to wizard (as was always planned), then the monk left around 3rd level and the other druid left around 5th level. So with only an Ogre, Druid/Wiz and Rog/Wiz, around 6th level the Rog/Wiz decided he'd prefer to play a class that didn't overlap so much, and changed to Rog/Cleric (through an elaborate scheme I helped dream up, she found religion and I let her change classes as wel as change alignment to NG like the rest of the party). She also took leadership, and now has a Paladin follower, and the druid/wiz is now arcane heirophant too, and has an animal (chimp) follower/familiar. So the party now numbers 5 again (3 players now), with one really tough ogre/fighter, a good backup melee person in the paladin, a comedy-value and occasionally hits for damage chimp, a versatile spell casting dru/wiz, and a cleric with lots of ranks in all the social skills who can also sneak attack. Having taken practiced spellcaster, sure they lack the highest level of spells but that's no biggie really.
I actually had eveyone pick a class without consulting anyone else at the beginning (the adventure started with them witnising a crime and intervening), and it was good luck the initial group turned out pretty well balanced. No cleric, and they faced lots of undead early on, but it was fun seeing them get creative against hoards of zombies with DR against a lot of their attacks. Especially as they all role-played their characters well, not knowing that these undead things were resistant to various weapon types until trial and error found out what worked. The players liked it - felt realistic. And as I say, when the group composition has changed, they have adapted themselves to make it work for them.
Occasionally I help suggest something for them (an option they might not have considered), but basically they have balanced the party themselves, and I've certainly never adjusted the adventures to take account of the group of PC's. Generally I've been surprised how well they have performed in some potentially sticky situations - a testiment to their skill and creativity as players, indicidually and as a group.