I just read a great book "The Medieval Machine" by Jean Gimple. I find I am ispired to create a character with an Architecture/Engineering background.
I am not really that interested in min maxing, but was curious about what some of the folks out there thought about flavor type skills like this.
Is an Architect Engineer, someone who maxes out "knowledge: architecture & engineering", "profession: architect engineer" or given the practical nature of the tasks, is the job of an "architect/engineer" more in line with a craft (as an intelligence rather than wisdom based function)?
Do you need both the knowledge and thte profession skill? In the game what do you think the difference would be?
Also what other skills would this type of character have in keeping with a medieval style world? Alchemy, Perform, Craft: Art?
In general how many ranks do people think make a:
Someone who has some training and can do basics
Apprentice
Journeyman
Master
Grand Master
In a profession or craft?
Please bear in mind I am trying to develop a feel for a character, and a certain back story, not build a character who can perfrom a specific task.
I just read a great book "The Medieval Machine" by Jean Gimple. I find I am ispired to create a character with an Architecture/Engineering background.
Check out "The Castle Story" - very fun stuff!
Is an Architect Engineer, someone who maxes out "knowledge: architecture & engineering", "profession: architect engineer" or given the practical nature of the tasks, is the job of an "architect/engineer" more in line with a craft (as an intelligence rather than wisdom based function)?
Do you need both the knowledge and the profession skill? In the game what do you think the difference would be?
Also what other skills would this type of character have in keeping with a medieval style world? Alchemy, Perform, Craft: Art?
In general how many ranks do people think make a:
Someone who has some training and can do basics
Apprentice
Journeyman
Master
Grand MasterIn a profession or craft?
Please bear in mind I am trying to develop a feel for a character, and a certain back story, not build a character who can perform a specific task.
I imagine lower "ranks" in a guild deal more heavily in the labor & doing end of things (Craft) while learning your trade (Profession). As you advanced in your guild, you would gradually learn the "secrets" (Knowledge) that make your guild special.
Related or important skills could be Diplomacy (impressing a patron) or Appraise (according value to a contract). Some other skills would depend on your character's station in life or the position of the guild in society. If you've got a quasi-Renaissance society, then more "arty" skills come into play. Perform (Lute or Poetry or Tambour) would be good as well as Perform (Dance). If your guild is well respected, by the time you get to Journeyman you may attain Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty). Craft (Alchemy)...traditional alchemists usually had wealthy sponsors willing to lay out some dough for projects that may not get any results (lead into gold, extended life, etc). Unless your character has some spare cash or a good friend, I'd stay away from this.
Apprentice 0 - 6 ranks
Journeyman 7 - 12 ranks
Master 13 - 19 ranks
Grand Master 20+ ranks
Anyway, my thoughts. Your Mileage May Vary.
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You also have to realize that Architecture and Engineering are two very different things. Architecture is usually more along the lines of how something looks. Engineering is more along the lines of how something is put together, what its made of, and how well it works.
And in a medieval/fantasy setting, you would have two types of engineers. First you have the one who is an expert on building castles, city walls, bridges, roads, etc. This guy would probably have some expertise with architecture and making things look nice/impressive.
Second, you have the combat engineer who specializes in building fortifications and in knocking them down. This would be the guy who can help the army to form a nice entrenched position or camp, or he can lead them right up to the city/castle wall and run the siege weapons.
You skills would depend alot upon the above choices.
For someone who builds castles, you probably want ranks in Crafting different substances (metal, wood, stone), Knowledge (Architecture/Engineering) and Profession (engineer).
For an Architect, the above, plus a few more exotic Craft skills. A few ranks in Appraise and Diplomacy might not be a bad idea.
For a seige engineer, I would definitely do Knowledge (Architecture Engineering) and also Craft (wood) for seige engines. Ranks in Use Rope might not be too bad, and maybe Survival (since seige engineers conceivably operate in a multitude of environments).
Profession (Siege Engineer) is a skill used in Heroes of Battle to deploy and aim siege machinery.
You also have to realize that Architecture and Engineering are two very different things...
And in a medieval/fantasy setting, you would have two types of engineers.
My impression is that in a historical Medieval context that wasn't actually the case - which is why (I think) they are grouped as a single knowledge skill in the PHB, of course in D&D it can be whatever you want.
First off, a funny (I hope) story about siege engineers. A while back, my party was in a pirate town, and they stopped into a bar to meet a contact. In this bar were some exotic dancers, two elves and a human woman. The ranger of the group was a very loud, flashy type that did his best to attract the attention of the girls, and somehow ended up getting into the best barroom brawl scene I've ever run, especially since when the authorities showed up, the paladin of the group actually managed to convince them (good roleplaying and an amazing Diplomacy check) that the OTHER guys actually started the fight (the thing just kind of happened, and could be slanted either way, so he wasn't lying or being too un-paladin like).
After that, the ranger succeeded in attracting the attention of the girls pretty easily and called them over to the table. The paladin was a bit uneasy about consorting with such types, but as they began to talk, he was left alone with one of them, a human woman named Lily, who talked about how her parents had died in the civil war some years back and this was the only way she had to get by. Taking pity on her, the paladin agreed to get her away from this corrupt place and back to a land of law and order where she could pursue her dreams. Upon inquiring what those dreams were, I realized I had no clue (most of this was being done on the fly) and quickly looked up the Profession skill and rolled randomly.
"Well, I'd really like to take up my father's craft as a siege engineer." Everyone at the table started laughing at the thought of having a reformed stripper who operated catapaults as a friend of the party.
Anyway, onto something that is actually relevant.... This discussion came up with Sexi Golem's character in my game recently. He wanted to take Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) and focus on the engineering aspect. Oh, by the way, he's playing a gnome. So, this isn't conventional engineering. Think Dragonlance tinker gnome devices. Yeah, that's what he's interested in.
We realized the the Knowledge skill is what one would use to design blueprints for devices, while craft skills are what you use to develop components and put them together into an actual device. Using this format, he's created a series of rules for bombs. Realizing that making black powder equivalencies in D&D would open up a world of game-balance issues, he deliberately made them not use traditional explosive. He called them DANGER clay, DANGER being an acronym for something like Dynamically Augmented Nirnroot (taken from Elder Scrolls IV) Gum Extract... and I forgot the last part. Anyway, they're basically like plastic explosives, and put in shells in which there are a pair of lodestones that, when twisted, start building up an electrical current that causes the thing to explode.
As further measures of game balance, he made several rules regarding stacking over various types of explosive (I forget exactly how this worked, but basically, he made it so that you can't just brew up a huge bomb and nuke a city), and the damage is in d12s, but not that severe. Rather, he made numerous different degrees of these bombs, with higher and higher craft DCs to assemble them. He also made a long list of various things that can go wrong (some horrifically for him) if he fails that craft check to actually assemble these things. I roll these checks in secret, and then roll on his random mishap chart if he failed to check to see what will happen when he uses the thing. So far, he hasn't blown himself or any friends up. So far. :)
I just thought that might help. I decided that I really liked the thought of psuedo-scientific devices a al Dragonlance tinker gnomes and WoW engineering in my setting, and thus gave Sexi free reign to create various ideas and let me check them. So far, I haven't seen a problem with anything. It was quite fun blowing up Dory's Hulk in The Styes after the councilman was killed, by throwing a bomb into one of the boilers.
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You also have to realize that Architecture and Engineering are two very different things...
And in a medieval/fantasy setting, you would have two types of engineers.My impression is that in a historical Medieval context that wasn't actually the case - which is why (I think) they are grouped as a single knowledge skill in the PHB, of course in D&D it can be whatever you want.
I remember a bit of trivia from a book called The Family by Mario Puzo, about the Borgias. Leonardo Da Vinci was working for Cesare Borgia as his seige engineer. No fears of extinction through overspecialization there.
Ken Follett's book "The Pillars of the Earth" follows a mason's quest to build a cathedral. It's not a small book, but very good. There are many references to techniques of building at the time, along with aspects of everyday life.
Oddly one of the uses Da Vinci was most commonly put to - and that occupied a large portion of his time was party planning and developing menus for events (at least according to the author of "How to Think Like Leonardo Da Vinci").
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Overall, I agree with Aberzombie. I don't think that Architecture and Engineering are completely divorced from each other, but they can be emphasized differently.
I've been working on developing an alternate school for an NPC dwarven wizard for a campaign. He's a 'Civic Mage' and draws from both sides of the Architecture and Engineering side of the skill. Designing and/or reconstructing buildings, devising the city's sewer system, improving traffic flow along major thoroughfares, etc. all fall under his supervision. His skill set includes Knowldege (Architecture/Engineering); Profession (Engineer); Craft (Stoneworking); Craft (Metalworking); Craft (Drawing)- because making good quality, legible blueprints for your workers to follow is critical; Diplomacy -because dealing with civic leaders who are frequently at odds with one another AND the general public AND your work crews is important; and Knowledge (Geography) because a keen understaning of terrain is also very important.
I don't like the idea of separating Architecture and Engineering completely, because they can be very tightly linked, but, if you have a character who wants to imphasize one over the other, you could apply a situational modifier to checks... +1or2 to engineering and -1or2 to architecture if they are more on the let's build it side; reverse the bonus/penalty if they are on the let's design it side.