I've read several posts about how certain DM resources can be used to create brutally munchkinized monsters. The one that sticks out in my memory is the Draconomicon which I happen to own; I know that heavy use of metabreath feats (and certain others) should definately increase CR. Well I'm a fairly new DM so I'll just restrain myself from using said feats and options until I get a firmer handle on monster CR; easy enough.
Today, however, I was flipping thru the pages while watching tv and found myself looking at the radiant dragon stats. "Hmm, this looks really familiar...where have I seen this before? Oh! This looks exactly like the gold dragon stats except...a whole load BETTER!" In fact, the radiant dragon is better than the gold in every way except for lack of sorcerous ability. They even have a deflection bonus to AC that gets better with each age category! And yet, lo and behold, gold dragon CR is invariably higher than radiant.
So my question is: Does each monster-providing supplement have a different CR standard? and if so is there any reliable way for a new DM to identify and modify these standards to match that of the MM (which I'm assuming is the ideal standard)? Not that I plan on pitting any PCs against gold or radiants in the future but if these CRs are so out of sync, then others are bound to be also.
Thanks in advance!
Hmmm, I don't have any of my books handy right now, but I think that there might be a CR generator in the savage species book, could be wrong. Next time I get a chance I'll take a look. Just of the cuff, I would guess that most of the monsters have their CRs assigned arbitrarily with little or no hard number crunching. I mean, chaos beasts are like only CR7 and they have the ability to turn anything they touch into other chaos beasts, if I remember correctly the DC to resist is pretty steep. Anyhow, I would advise using mostly your own judgement when assigning monsters and only use given CRs as a loose guide line.
If you are having a difficult time determining if an encounter is going to be a little to rough, use the pregen characters in the back of the DMG and run a mock battle just to see how things are generally going to go. This should give you a pretty good idea of where things stand.
|
I agree 100% with Sel; I really think it is not too exact of a science. I've seen a few mentions here and there, guidelines of how CR's are assigned, but it looks like a lot of it is really a judgment call on the part of the creator of the monster in question. I think ogre's CR in fact changed from 2 in 3e to 3 in 3.5e; I can't remember for sure.
An anecdote for this is you can take your tax returns to be filed by 100 different accountants and realistically expect to get 100 different returns.
So my question is: Does each monster-providing supplement have a different CR standard?
Thanks in advance!
What do you think the answer to your own question is and why?
As ever,
ACE
So my question is: Does each monster-providing supplement have a different CR standard?
Thanks in advance!What do you think the answer to your own question is and why?
As ever,
ACE
I now think that WotC is lacking in a standardized CR system. As I always do, I've been hoping against hope that I'm wrong; that there is reason behind this particalar bit of madness that makes my life a little more difficult. My default assumption is that WotC is wise beyond the scope of my feeble intellect. Unfortunately, this misconception is all too often proven wrong despite my ardent and naive hopes.
I now think that WotC is lacking in a standardized CR system. As I always do, I've been hoping against hope that I'm wrong; that there is reason behind this particalar bit of madness that makes my life a little more difficult.
Just to clarify what you are saying...your belief is that the game designers are not doing their jobs in filtering creature stat blocks across different published suppliments with regard to the CR system...is that correct?
As ever,
ACE
Just to clarify what you are saying...your belief is that the game designers are not doing their jobs in filtering creature stat blocks across different published suppliments with regard to the CR system...is that correct?As ever,
ACE
It sure sounds like you are goading TS into saying something he isn't. What is your agenda?
To answer the actual thread question:
I DM strictly by the rules (as far as my players know), but run things a lot more losely behind the screen. Honestly, the game is enormous, and there are going to be issues of imbalance all the time. You, the DM, are responsible for keeping balance regardless of the reason it might be out of whack. Chance alone can make a scuffle with kobolds turn into a TPK. Use the CRs as they were intended, as a guide, and always be ready to shift the balance of power to keep things running smoothly. After all, it's a game, and should be fun, even for you.
my 2 cents.
It sure sounds like you are goading TS into saying something he isn't. What is your agenda?
I'm just trying to figure out what TS is really trying to say...to place blame at the publisher level about this issue isn't accurate. WoTC doesn't particularly care if all the CRs in all the suppliments that they publish are standardized, they care if they sell books to us! The publisher will start caring if the content becomes sloppy to the point of gamers leaving because of it, but that's about it. The game designers that are approving the stat blocks that are the ones who are supposed to be responsible for making sure that the rules and systems aren't broken ones and any new content is correctly integrated with the game design.
To boot, the origional question of "Does each monster suppliment have a different CR standard?" still remains. What do you think?
Also, I agree with you in saying that it is up to the DM to adjust...that's one of the hats that the DM wears in my book. It's also part of a philosophy of gaming that some don't ascribe to. Perhaps TS is one of those individuals.
Make sense?
As ever,
ACE
Also, I agree with you in saying that it is up to the DM to adjust...that's one of the hats that the DM wears in my book. It's also part of a philosophy of gaming that some don't ascribe to. Perhaps TS is one of those individuals.
ACE
I've understood for a long time that it is a DM's responsibility to make the game balanced and fun; the point of this thread was to find if there is some kind of 'DM trick of the trade' to help me out in this particular circumstance. Other than raw experience, of course. From what y'all have said, there is no 'trick of the trade' for this particular problem.
So unless you have any further advice, I've got my answer; end of thread.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
TS - If you're really deserate for guidance there's an ancient issue of Dragon from right around the time 3.0 came out that tries to break out the CR system. I doubt it says anything more than the DMG.
Probably a dumb question - but did you check the errata to see if the gold dragon's CR has changed? Is it possible that the numbers are off on the table (i.e., that somehow the CR got bumped down for an age category?)
The CR system is a pretty wonky beast, but there is always a chance that this particular monster is a product of an editing, rather than design, mistake.
Probably a dumb question - but did you check the errata to see if the gold dragon's CR has changed? Is it possible that the numbers are off on the table (i.e., that somehow the CR got bumped down for an age category?)
The CR system is a pretty wonky beast, but there is always a chance that this particular monster is a product of an editing, rather than design, mistake.
It's definately not an editing mistake; the radiant CRs are perfectly syncrinous with eachother. If there is errata for the Draconomicon, it's hidden somewhere in the WotC site cuz I don't have the file. Guess I'll just have to weather this storm the old fashioned way; thanks for the input anyway.