Hey all! I'm a longtime Forgotten Realms DM, pretty darn familiar with that--and love it--but am hankering sometime in the near future to take the plunge into running a core Greyhawk campaign. Now I have read the Greyhawk Gazateer (the $10 softcover pamphlet thing) so I am familiar with basic details of nations, history, gods, etc. I've also watched the Scourge of Worlds DVD and played the Atari version of Temple of Elemental Evil--both of which I also loved. So I have the nuts and bolts differences pretty well understood.
The question is, what's the difference in feel and tone? I know we have a lot of people here who love Greyhawk so I'm curious what the differences are in feel between the world I know so well and this other, more classical campaign setting? How does the one feel different than the other?
My impression is that Oerth tends to be a bit more grounded in real-world history and ecology, even if it does have a fantasy bent. Where Faerûn would use some kind of teleporting half-spider monster, Oerth would use a giant frog.
I always picture Oerth as being more human-centric than Faerûn, as well; demi-humans tend to live in enclaves and monster-types, except for rare individuals, don't mix with "civilization" at all, whereas in Faerûn there are lots of races and half-races all over the place.
Finally, Oerth is more medieval (with castles, jousting knights and such), whereas Faerûn is more baroque (with largish cities and a more cosmopolitan feel).
That's how I see them, anyway. :)
-The Gneech
That's actually very helpful. Thanks a bunch. Those are some pretty good benchmarks to work with.
That's actually very helpful. Thanks a bunch. Those are some pretty good benchmarks to work with.
Pleased to be of service! You might also find some useful insights here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=173835
-The Gneech
Another big difference is with power groups; in Faerun, the Harpers, the Zhentarim, the Cult of the Dragon, etc. tend to be global powers with a seeming endless amount of resources to call on, all run by a powerful wizard or three. In Oerth, power groups tend to be more centralized. The Knights of the Hart are mostly concerned with Furyondy and its surroundings, just like the Knights Dispatch and Knights of the Watch tend to focus on Geoff/Sterich. The Greyhawk Thieves and Assassins Guilds are centralized in that city, but outside of it they don't have the same authority. The exception is the Circle of Eight, but they don't come into play nearly as much in events as Elminster, Mystra's daughters, etc.
The gods have never played as direct a hand in the events of Oerth as on Faerun, with the major exception being Iuz the Old One. Gods do color the setting, but through the deeds of their followers, rather than manifesting as an avatar.
Also, I like to think that buying magical items is more difficult on Oerth. There is no equivalent to the 3rd Edition Red Wizards (the Wal-Mart chain of magic items) so the sale and purchase of magic items isn't quite as prevalent. Arcane magic is a big deal on Oerth, but it's not nearly as concentrated as in Faerun. There are wizard colleges in major cities and low-level mages and clerics are easy to find, but the folks that can cast spells of 4th level and above are more rare than in Faerun.
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I found, that the difference between them is (without judging them good or bad):
1. Oerth has far more politics to dabble (right word?) in.
2. In Faerun, the big heroes still walk on the face of Toril.
3. On Oerth magic is still more like a mystery.
4. Faerun has far more powergroups and stronger individuals.
5. In Oerth, gods don't interfere as lightly as in Faerun.
6. And yes, Oerth seems more grounded in our real medieval world (of Europe).
By the way, if you want to start a new campaign in Greyhawk, but you don't know anything about it,what book should you buy ??
There is no equivalent to the 3rd Edition Red Wizards (the Wal-Mart chain of magic items) so the sale and purchase of magic items isn't quite as prevalent.
LOL there sure are! As of the 3.5 DMG the Red Wizard has been imported into Greyhawk (and the rest of D&D) as a core rules Prestige Class. They even have that same picture of the bald guy with the tattoed scalp from the Forgotten Realms book!
As far as the gods, I recall in the Temple of Elemental Evil game running into avatars both of Iuz and St. Cuthburt.
But I get your point. Thanks by the way for everyone who's posted so far. So Oerth is more localized, more magic lite, more chivarlrous, with of a bit more historical edge over the fantasy pagentry of Faerun.
(Libertarians are the devil...)
By the way, if you want to start a new campaign in Greyhawk, but you don't know anything about it,what book should you buy ??
For my money I'd recommend the Greyhawk Gazateer. It's very thin, and hence inexpensive--really it's hardly more than a softbound pamphlet. It has a writeup on the history, the cultures and races, and the nations and geography. Since most of the 3rd edition books are written from a mostly Oerth standpoint anyway you really need look no further for classes, gods, magic, or monsters. The little book is all you really need--however listening to these good folks is a great way to go from detail level understanding to an understanding of the flavor and feel of the setting as a whole, which is really what I was looking for.
I found, that the difference between them is (without judging them good or bad):
1. Oerth has far more politics to dabble (right word?) in.
My POV is based on really just many years of stealing from both worlds for my home brew - its based therefore on impressions of a dabbler and not a real hard core fanatic of either world.
That said I somewhat agree with the feeling that politics are often more apparent in Oerth but only on the grand scale. Essentially because Oerth has gone through significant revisions and at different times different people have had control of the content one gets something of an evolving world. The Hateful Wars changed the map in a way that simply has never happened in Faerun. It also somewhat leaves the door open for more map changes. While a DM of Faerun could always have an invasion that wiped Cormyr off the map chances are those that really love Faerun almost never would take such a step. It potentially invalidates so much of the information available at Candle Keep. In Oerth is basically taken for granted that the situation present after the Hateful Wars is unsustainable. The current borders are not based on geopolitical equilibrium. Essentially It'd be unrealistic to run a major political campaign in Oerth from the current situation and not wipe a few countries off the map or have a major revision of the political status quo. So the door is open for making changes that are larger then one is likely to do with Faerun. Of course that does leave you with a problem as you soon move away from what little cannon is around and must decide if this is 'your' Greyhawk or if you want to reset the campaign world after every few campaigns.
2. In Faerun, the big heroes still walk on the face of Toril.
Again I'd generally agree. This has a lot to do with all the novels. Every major player in any of the novels has a decent chance of being statted for Faerubn and he or she has known haunts were or she does the kinds of things that are seen in the novels. In Oerth there are only a comparably small number of statted individuals and of these there is usually very little actually known about them. For the material from 1st and sometimes even 2nd edition we might have a stat block and maybe two sentnce description. A lot of rulers might only be known by their name, class and level hence its much much harder to meet a celebrity. Another factor is that of the the few around many are basically epic level mages. There just are not many well known 12th level characters in Oerth. When there are comparatively fewer famous NPCs and the few that are around are basically demi-gods, well you don't interact with them much.
3. On Oerth magic is still more like a mystery.
Legacy of 1st edition where magic often did not have a reasonable explanation in terms of rules etc. If teh DM wanted then poof - there it is. While its true that 2nd edition magic was only marginally better and that Faerun also existed in 1st Edition, Faerun came only in the last stages of 1st edition. Also it was made 2nd and more attempt was made to rationalize the magic. Gygax in particuler never let a rule get in the way of making a dungeon or a trap so there is strong precident in Oerth. Also Expedition to the Barrier Peaks really threw the doors wide open and set a kind of precident thats not really repeated in Faerun.
4. Faerun has far more power groups and stronger individuals.
Again I'd more or less agree. Much of this is the localized nature of the power groups in Oerth. There are groups interested in the Pomarj for instance - but generally that is all they are interested in. Those inteersted in the Shield Lands are not usually found wandering Ket. While the Zentrium could reasonably be almost anywhere. With the exception, really, of the Scarlet Brotherhood there are no real mass secret societies in Oerth. Furthermore a lot more power is vested into nation states or pseudo nation states. Iuz rules physical territory and hopes to adjust borders so that he rules over more. The Zentrium much less so - they don't plan to conquer the world with armies but with magic and corruption. In fact I'd say that was a big difference. In Greyhawk armies are not so rare and they might be massive. In the Forgotten Realms one might find soldiers but not so much large armies meant to conquer countries.
5. In Oerth, gods don't interfere as lightly as in Faerun.
Yeah - here I'm not so sure I agree. Zagyg seems to have kept a collection of Gods though he's lousy at inventory and he keeps loosing them. It seems at the bottom of every evil pit in Oerth you'll find a God or super powerful Demon. Their ubiquitous. Some of them are also trying to conquer the place.
You might go down the pit and find Lolth, or maybe it will be Tharzdun or you could come across Igwilv or possibly som,ething important to her son, but make no mistake somewhere at the bottom of every fetid evil pit in Oerth there is a God ... oh yeah and if your getting caught in a God's thought bubbles, well thats bad, avoid if at all possible. Anyway I can hardly think of a classic Greyhawk Module that did not have Gods or other superpowerful God like creatures as a major part of the story.
Not quite so common in Faerun.
6. And yes, Oerth seems more grounded in our real medieval world (of Europe).
Here I think its more of Oerth being portrayed as being of slightly earlier technology. Faerun often feels almost like 15th century while Greyhawk is more 12th century.
By the way, if you want to start a new campaign in Greyhawk, but you don't know anything about it,what book should you buy ??For my money I'd recommend the Greyhawk Gazateer. It's very thin, and hence inexpensive--really it's hardly more than a softbound pamphlet. It has a writeup on the history, the cultures and races, and the nations and geography. Since most of the 3rd edition books are written from a mostly Oerth standpoint anyway you really need look no further for classes, gods, magic, or monsters. The little book is all you really need--however listening to these good folks is a great way to go from detail level understanding to an understanding of the flavor and feel of the setting as a whole, which is really what I was looking for.
In all honesty, I would go for the 192-page Living Greyhawk Gazetteer rather than the 32-page D&D Gazetteer. The DDG just leaves you hungry for more, and the LGG gives you everything in the DDG and a whole lot more.
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By the way, if you want to start a new campaign in Greyhawk, but you don't know anything about it,what book should you buy ??
I recommend the "Living Greyhawk Gazeteer" and "From the Ashes" boxed set. Both are available as pdfs at Paizo for $4.00 each. After that, much of what you'll need will depend on where the game is set. "The Adventure Begins" and the boxed set, "City of Greyhawk", both detail the Free City and its surrounding area. "The Scarlet Brotherhood" has lots of info on Hepmonaland and the Amedio Jungle, both outside the Flanaess. "The Marklands" details Furyondy and Nyrond. "Iuz the Evil" details the Empire of Iuz. "Ivid the Undying" is a free download at the WOTC website which details the lands of the former Great Kingdom. The Living Greyhawk page at the WOTC site also has a complete list of all the deities of Greyhawk. www.canonfire.com is as close as an official Greyhawk site as we're likely to ever see.
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I enjoy both Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms, but the adventure paths by Paizo have given Greyhawk an edge over other campaign settings IMO. Here are some of things that strike me from both settings:
- Greyhawk has much more of a hands-on feel than FR. Mostly because its history has largely been written by D&D players. Adventures such as Temple of Elemental Evil and Queen of the Spiders are actually part of Greyhawk history. FR history derives more from its many novels. And since TSR/WOTC gave up on Greyhawk, its been the setting's enthusiasts such as Malkin and Erik Mona which have kept it going.
- Greyhawk has a lot of silly names such as Verbobonc, the Gnarley Forest, the Artonsamay River. Expect your players to chuckle the first time you mention Gnarley rangers.
- Better adventures in Greyhawk. FR has Undermountain, City of Spiders, and the Randal Morn series as some of its best. But it doesn't compare to classics such as Queen of Spiders, Tomb of Horrors, the Slavers, Vecna Lives, and Temple of Elemental Evil. While Greyhawk didn't have much going for it for a while, the adventure paths set in them have changed all that.
- Historically and geographically, FR makes sense (with the exception of the Anauroch Desert, who's existence is explained by magic). It's simply a more realistic setting. I'm not too sure why that is, but I would hazard to say that the many FR cultures which resemble our own such as the Moonshaes (Celtic Britain), Maztica (Aztecs), the Horde (Mongols), Mulhorand (Egypt), etc. are somewhat responsible. FR is filled with outposts of civilisation surrounded by wilderness. Not looking at a map scale, most people looking at maps of both settings would assume that Faerun is much larger than the Flanaess. Actually Faerun is only slightly larger.
- Certain DM's strive for realism. They don't allow their players to just walk in an item shop and purchase a +5 cold iron holy keen dwarven waraxe of evil outsider bane or have their companions raised every week at the local temple. Seems to me that FR caters more to that type of DM while Greyhawk has no problems with the rampant availabilty of magic. Allowing your players the means to get raised and purchase goods with hard-earned gold makes for a funner game at the cost of realism.
www.canonfire.com is as close as an official Greyhawk site as we're likely to ever see.
That's not to say that any of its content should be construed as official. I admire the efforts of the content writers, but I find the articles to be too dispirate or overly detailed for general use.
- Certain DM's strive for realism. They don't allow their players to just walk in an item shop and purchase a +5 cold iron holy keen dwarven waraxe of evil outsider bane or have their companions raised every week at the local temple. Seems to me that FR caters more to that type of DM while Greyhawk has no problems with the rampant availabilty of magic. Allowing your players the means to get raised and purchase goods with hard-earned gold makes for a funner game at the cost of realism.
Here I would disagree. What Cannon there is on Greyhawk is rooted in 1st edition and, depending on the individual, some 2nd edition. Neither 1st nor 2nd edition presumed anything like magic item production on the scale seen in 3rd edition - so cannon simply does not support the concept. Faerun has been extensively updated to 3rd edition and some rational for the buying and selling of magic items on a larger scale has been put in place.
Clearly, Forgotten Realms is more magic abundant than Greyhawk.
Mordenkainen at the time of From the ashes was 20th lvl, Rary, said to be one of the most powerful mages in Oerth, was 24th. Null, Iuz handpicked arch mage was 20th.
Prior to 3rd edition, Elminister was 26th lvl, Blackstaff 27th lvl, the simbul 30th lvl, Sas Tam 24th lvl, Allustrial 21st, Laeral 25th, Manshoon 20th, Maskar Wands 20th, and a whole legion of 17-19 th lvl mages in the various power groups across faerun.
So in terms of the sheer number of archmages and their power level, magic appears more predominant in the realms.
Take a classic Greenwood adventure like Haunted Halls of Evengstar. Its is possible for a 1st lvl character to find a luck blade with 1 wish. And that typifies Greenwood early realms adventures. Lots of high powered magic lying around. Made life intersting to say the least. Nothing wrong with it, but Greyhawk tended to be grittier..that +1 longsword was valuable..
Of course, 3rd edition magic creation rules have sorta nuked magic item rarity issues..which is the main thing I hate about it. Aside from that, 3rd edition was a boon to both settings.
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The problem with my earlier assertions are that they were made by someone who never played Greyhawk before 3rd edition came out. My first experience with Greyhawk was Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Back in 2nd Edition, I played mostly Ravenloft and Forgotten Realms. While I'm not denying that FR has more high-powered magic than Greyhawk, the point I was trying to make was that Greyhawk took itself less seriously than FR, to the point where Greyhawk will ignore realism for the sake of fun. For a good example of what I'm talking about, check out Castle Greyhawk. It's not exactly what you would call a typical dungeon.
(Hm . . . I wonder if I would seem too anal retentive if I pointed out that technically it would be Toril versus Oerth or Faerun versus Oerik)
There are tons of subtle differences between the two. For every major comment you make in general about the setings, there are examples you can come up with that torpedo those assertions.
One difference between the two that I could point out is that the Forgotten Realms was actually concieved as a setting for Ed Greenwood's short stories before D&D existed, while Greyhawk was a setting specifically created with D&D and its burgeoning rules sets in mind from the get go.
Take a classic Greenwood adventure like Haunted Halls of Evengstar. Its is possible for a 1st lvl character to find a luck blade with 1 wish. And that typifies Greenwood early realms adventures. Lots of high powered magic lying around. Made life intersting to say the least. Nothing wrong with it, but Greyhawk tended to be grittier..that +1 longsword was valuable..
One of the things that I like about the setting though is that Ed Greenwood doesn't ignore things like this that he has done. For example, I beleive it was in "The Temptation of Elminster" there are scenes where Elminster is seeding various dungeons with magic items to encourage adventurers to seek out powerful magic by taking risks.
UnderMountain was another good example of his mindset, as Halaster being insane and bored is the explanation for why there are so many different monsters in the halls, as well as Halaster's endless supply of portals leading to everywhere, so as to snag said myriad monsters.
In way, Ed saw a lot of conventions that had become common in D&D and decided to try and explain them in a manner that was consistant with the characters he had already created.
The Hateful Wars was actually a conflict of almost a century ago where the various gnome, dwarf, and halfling clans (The Small Folk as they were known) banded together to forever eradicate the presence of evil humanoid tribes (mainly goblinoid and orc) from the Lortmil Mountains. They were fairly successful in their...
Weren't the elves of Celene involved as well?
A clarification just to keep from confusing anyone new to the Greyhawk setting, I believe you're referring to the Greyhawk Wars, so named because of the Pact of Greyhawk that was signed to bring an end to open hostilities across the subcontinent of the Flanaess. These were the recent wars that shaped the political boundaries of the Flanaess (of which the Free City of Greyhawk is the geographic center) into the positions that they largely occupy today.
You would be correct.