What do you do when you have a problem player?
Both in game and out?
Here is my situation:
1. I am the DM for a group of four players.
2. ALL of them (except one) have the "video game mentality" (be the best you can, "power-play", don't bother to roleplay).
3. One of them has serious issues.
This last point is my greatest concern (though the second is getting annoying, but I've found a solution to that, detailed near the end of this post). This player is becoming a serious problem, for a number of reasons:
1. Feels that the alignment CE gives him the license to go around things which disgust the other players, such as trying to skin peoples faces and then wearing them, claiming it gives him a bonus to Disguise. I have seriously toyed with the idea of forcing him to change his alignment to Neutral, but I feel that this is just too restrictive (as an added problem there is a lawful-good paladin in the party).
2. Has no respect for me, the DM. When told that an Imp dealt him Dexterity damage (which they do, with poison sting), he got up, ran around to my end of the table, put me in a karate arm hold, and took the MM off me. He examined it, holding up play for five minutes, before claiming I'd fudged the roll (I hadn't, but could you blame me if I had?) and telling me to roll again.
3. He says that unless I roll in the open (even for monsters and NPCs' attacks or skill checks) I'm cheating.
4. Orders me to work in his "background", which mainly consists of him being forced to slaughter all of his family.
Could anyone offer any ideas?
Now I know what you're thinking. TELL HIM TO GET LOST!
Sadly this is not an option, as he and I (and indeed, all of the players) go to the same high school, and as I'm fourteen I'm going to have to put up with him until the end of 2008 (he's in year ten, I in year 9). And, frankly, you've got to have some pity for the guy. No-one else is going to play DnD with him at school (we Australians have never had the "satanism" problem over here, but we still have to put up with the "nerdy-gamer" stigma (thanks a lot, Dr Demento!)).
For the time being, I am handing over the reins of Dungeon Master to someone else and I am going to play for a while as a bard with tens for all his Abilities to show that you can be average and still survive. I'm also going to focues on roleplaying and am hoping by setting a good example I will show the others the true meaning of DnD.
True meaning of DND = its an RPG (ROLE-PLAYING-GAME), not a PPG (POWER-PLAYING-GAME).
I'd appreciate any advice people have to offer.
Teh Lord.
Well, my usual solution to a problem player like this would be to kick them out with the blessing of the rest of the players, who probably are annoyed with him too, but you've already said that isn't really an option.
Letting someone else DM isn't really solving your problem, since you are still gaming with the jerk, and he probably will pull the same crap on the new DM.
Perhaps consider taking a "break" from Dnd due to school commitments, "out-growing" it. whatever excuse works. At least, don't play with anyone at your school, since that is the issue with this problem player. Join a play by mail, or a play online game... or try to find other gamers through local shops or the gamer classifieds section at wizards.com (do we have one of those sections here?)
Anyways, if the problem player can't play DND anymore because you and the rest of the group aren't playing, then hopefully he'll move on to something else, and you guys can re-start in a few months without him.
Of course, that might not work if your other players are good friends with this problem player, but that is another issue.
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Or, with the consent of the other players, up the lethality of your campaign and kill him off... repeatedly. If he is constantly having to make up new characters, it might cease being fun for him. And if its a stream of fatalities and TPKs, then it won't look like you are "out to get him"
And once he gets bored of this and moves on to something else, you and the other players can start a sane campaign.
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Or, since he is presumably 15, pull the parent card on him. Play DND at someone's house, and have a parent (hopefully his, but with this kind of mentality, that might not be an option) overhear, and either talk to him directly or talk to his parents about his issues.
Of course, that might not work if your other players are good friends with this problem player, but that is another issue.
About half of them are. Ho hum.
Or, since he is presumably 15, pull the parent card on him. Play DND at someone's house, and have a parent (hopefully his, but with this kind of mentality, that might not be an option) overhear, and either talk to him directly or talk to his parents about his issues.
Interestingly enough, we played at this player's house in his mother's kitchen while his mother was baking cookies, and she was oblivious to his actions (most parents probably just tune out anyway- can you blame them?)
But good advice, all the same.
Thanks mate,
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In reference to this player's in-game actions:
I had a transient player way back in 1st edition who was playing a CN barbarian (original Unearthed Arcana)who had a penchant for torturing & killing prostitutes in small villages; he really seemed to enjoy describing it. I was in my late twenties at the time; he was about 10 years older & was a vietnam vet. I was hoping that the other PCs would handle the situation, but they were reluctant to challenge the PC (this guy was a powder keg of angst). So I used NPCs to finally terminate his barabrian (Zokk, I believe his name was). Prostitutes have pimps & family; they adminstered frontier justice. He rolled up another barbarian, but never came back to play (& didn't kill any of us).
I don't know the nature of your campaign world, but even in the darkest millieu, heinous behavior is going to draw attention & ellict a reaction; either righteous outrage or simple self presevation--but somebody will take exception. Mad dogs don't live very long. It seems to me if someone is trying to use a skin-face mask to disguise himself, someone is going to kill him, if only to get rid of the stench.
Another point: this guy shouldnt be putting his hands on you. Roughhousing with a pal is one thing, but the situation you described seems out of bounds.
Edited above post.
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1. Feels that the alignment CE gives him the license to go around things which disgust the other players, such as trying to skin peoples faces and then wearing them, claiming it gives him a bonus to Disguise.<snip> .. as an added problem there is a lawful-good paladin in the party).
Er.. a LG paladin is allowing a CE guy in his party, not to mention not raising a finger while the later skins people's faces and wears them? Time to start reminding him that his powers come at a price and that if he expects to keep them, he better acts now.
Of course, I realize this will only create further conflicts with your problem-player but, really, a CE serial killer and a LG paladin shouldn't mix unless they intend to fight it out.
3. He says that unless I roll in the open (even for monsters and NPCs' attacks or skill checks) I'm cheating.
He isn't entirely wrong about this.
Now, calm down, I am not accusing you of cheating. What I am saying is that in our little corner of the world DMs have been rolling in the open for years now. Oh, we still roll a few things behind the screen (such as the Hide check of a NPC) but most rolls are done in full sight of the players. That way, no one can accuse anyone of cheating.. one way or the other. Doesn't slow down the game and puts everyone at ease. You may want to try it.
My suggestion: Hand over the reins to someone else, and don't take them back until you won't have to deal with that kind of crap any more. It sucks not DMing when you've got some great ideas rattling through your head, but its better than taking verbal or physical abuse from your players. In the mean time, have fun being a player (though I don't think you should have all 10s... I'd go with the elite array 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 8), and take the rolls as they come. Maybe you could try and find an online group using something like Fantasy Grounds or OpenRPG.
Tough situation for you, but frankly from what you describe there is only one solution. Kick that player out or stop playing yourself with that group. I am a player and game master for 25 years now and I have seen it all. In the end it all comes down to the point, that we all invest hours over hours in our beloved hobby. But if that time is not enjoyable do something else. If you think about it, there are probably a lot of better things for you to do instead of putting up with that jerk.
And another thing is group composition. Never allow opposing alignments and never play in an evil group unless the players are experienced and mature to handle it. I have only mastered one game with evil characters. That was a one time special scenario, where everybody was out to kill the others or at least foil their plans. We played that as a long weekend birthday special. Otherwise I strongly believe an evil group is simple not going to work.
So what if you go to the same school? Hell, so what if you even share classes and have to see him for an hour or more every day? It doesn't mean you have to play with him. Just because some of your players have friends who might also be into gaming doesn't mean all of their friends have to be invited into your game. Even if this guy is "a friend" (unlikely, unless you have battered-wife syndrome) and is in one or more of your classes, better to lose the jerk; it's hardly going to affect you, since honestly, do you have strong personal interactions with everyone you share classes with? Moreover, it's perfectly possible to run games with just 3 players; I do it regularly. I honestly don't see the problem.
If you're still reluctant, then just take this to heart.
* The paladin needs to be punished for tolerating this behavior. The next time he looks the other way while this guy does something, he should lose his powers until he atones.
* The legal authorities in-game, or the relatives of the people he kills, should be mounting a manhunt or hiring adventurers to track down this serial killer and his accomplices (the party) and bring them to justice.
* Take the guy aside after a game (or even, preferably, before the next game) and tell him you don't appreciate his behavior.
* Finally, and most importantly, the next time he lays hands on you like you described, kick him out of the game right then and there. No ifs, ands, or buts. End the session for the day if you have to. If the other players complain and can't see that's inappropriate then quite frankly they are so immature, or so messed up in the head themselves, then it's not worth playing with them. There are plenty of people in the average school, and even failing that, there are quite a few more people than that online.
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Even though you go to the same high school, I don't think you should continue playing with him. Someone that physically assaults you during the game is not your friend. Someone that is not your friend should not be a person you play D&D with.
Now, if you insist on playing with him, enforce the rules. If the PC includes a paladin, he can't travel with an obviously evil character.
Make sure that every player creates a character that has a reason to travel with the group. If you have to start a new campaign with new characters, that's fine. Talk about what you'd like in the game. Be confident enough to describe what the game will provide and what it will not provide. Lay some ground rules.
When you're the DM, you're in charge. Threat of violence aside, the player has to respect your decisions. There is no game without you. If you have to put him on timeout, do so. Low-level spells like Sepia Snake Sigil can take him out of the game for quite some time, allowing you to enforce his character being unable to perform actions.
If the party splits up, don't give him equal time. Give him at most "relative" time. If you have 3 players going one way, the most he should be allowed is 1/4 of the time. However, since one player can normally get through more actions than a group, use less.
When the PCs are playing, describe things as vividly as you can. When he does something you don't approve of, don't describe it. Just say "Okay. You do that".
It won't be fun for him if you don't give him a reaction.
Feel free to say "That disgusts me. If you want that kind of game, you should go somewhere else". It probably won't get rid of him, but combined with a few of the other suggestions, it might.
Though, I still think you should just tell him that you don't think your play styles are compatible and disinvite him.
Been there.
Tell him he's messing the game up for everyone. If he doesn't listen, mess it up for him (kick him out). People learn proper social behavior only when they are penalized for improper behavior. If you don't do this, he won't stop messing up your fun -- what would the point be then?
Regards,
Jack
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Here's what I'd do:
Start the campaign over at 1st level, and lay out some ground rules.
1) Tell your group that DM'ing is hard work, and you want to have fun too. To that end, you want to establish some ground rules.
2) No evil alignments. Be very clear from the get go anyone who plays an evil character will become an NPC villain in the game, because you want players portraying heroes, not psychopaths.
3) Rule discussions are to be held after the session. You don't like a ruling, bring it up after the session, where it can be discussed (without wrestling moves!).
Honestly, I think the biggest problem is that some of your group isn't as mature as you are. That's hard to get around. I might suggest you find a local RPGA game to play in to see how mature gamers play.
Ouch, this is a tricky situation. Many DMs would kick the guy out.
First and foremost, the players must respect the DM. This is the entire basis of the game. The players might expect fairness, rules knowledge and competence in exchange for this respect, but a game cannot work where the players do not respect the DM. As long as you're fulfilling your end of the deal, you should not allow your players to question you.
Secondly, never let powergamers play evil. In my experience, a powergamer type player will take this as an excuse to disrupt the game, steal from the other player characters and generally act more like a villain than a hero. I don't mind evil PCs as long as they're not monstrously evil, but that's what some players will do when you let them play evil. What works for me is to let them play chaotic neutral, which I find they might play as chaotic slightly-evil, but that's okay. At least suggest that they go chaotic-neutral and lay off the evil acts just to stop them showing up on the party paladin's detect evil.
If he demands that you roll in the open, you have two choices. One, tell him that he'll just have to trust you in your role as the DM. Two, actually roll in the open - if you never do fudge your rolls, you don't have anything to hide. If you go this method, remind players that not only will you never fudge against them, but you'll never fudge to save them when they get critted to death by a fire ant.
For character background, tell him quite plainly that he'll have to work that out on his own. That's never the DM's job, it's the player's. He's lucky that you're not one of those DMs who demands that the players provide a five-page background for every character.
If your players are munchkin powergamers, you have two options. One, accept that and run lengthy, innovative dungeon crawls. Dungeons and combats are an important part of the game, after all. Two, encourage roleplaying and thinking try to place encounters that reward non-combat use. Puzzles that can be thought out more safely than brute forced. Human NPCs who will help the PCs out, but only if the players can convince them. Act out the roles of the NPCs - don't just say, "The dwarf asks you why you are here", instead, speak as you'd imagine the dwarf to speak, ideally with at least a different voice such as a lower voice. "The gruff dwarf says, 'Now, what would you humans be doing in these caverns?'"
To get back to the secondary (IMHO anyways) issue of munchkin powergamers... well, I too started off (many years ago) as a power gamer back in the AD&D days.
My best advice to deal with powergamers is not to try and argue against their powergaming tendencies and min-maxed characters. Instead, focus on making them develop some backstory and personality for their character. If you want to have a character that is a multiclass human ranger2/barbarian1/fighter2/tempest5 dualwielding dealer of death... thats fine. Now you get to write up a character background and story that makes sense for why you character has so many classes and so little focus/staying power for something that he started. You don't want to put that much effort into your character's background and story? Ok, then maybe have a more simple character like a straight barbarian instead.
Use the DM option for prestige classes that they need to actually have a teacher and/or join the organization. You want to dip into 3 different PRCs? Okay, well you get to journey around and find 3 different teachers/organizations, and have them accept you as well. Then try to balance the demands of those 3 organizations/teachers.
And if they just want to have high stat characters (you mentioned just using a character yourself with straight 10s) thats fine. Just let them know that if they want high stat characters, you'll be adjusting the EL of the encounters as well to challenge them. And overall this will increase the lethality of the campaign, since you might have better physical stats as a fighter now, but the monsters have more HP, better armor class, deal more damage, have more special abilities, etc... and you can find the the range where having high stats is just a little more difficult than having "normal" stats and encountering traps and monsters of the normal EL for your level.
For example, I have one group that likes to have exceptionally high stats. We generally use something like a 44 pt buy (vs the 32 pt buy normally used for high stats) and in return, the party ends up in encounters that are roughly +2 to the EL they normally would of encountered, and thus have a higher mortality rate. Its a fine line, but it balances out in the end, with the players knowing they are trading the higher stats for more dangerous encounters.
Lord Eisen,
First and foremost, I suggest that you not allow evil-aligned characters unless that is the theme of your campaign. If it is not the theme, have the group stick to being the heroes.
With a paladin in the party, there should be some sort of knockdown dragout fight to the finish. The paladin would not allow this character's actions and stay a paladin. Next, he could be facing the local law enforcement for defacing a corpse (no pun intended). Use these tools.
More important, sit down and talk to the offending player _as a group_. If you cannot bring an end to the physical part alone, that should be enough for this guy to move on to another group and not yours. Or you should if the others in the group seem OK with this sort of interaction. I know I would not be.
I too am a vetern player/DM. For over 25 years I have seen a wide variety of people come and go from the game table. Most I would game with again, a few I would not if you paid me. It just would not be worth the hard time I would have to put up with.
In the end, remember it is your hobby too. You should be enjoying it. If you are not, you need to correct it via converstion or graciously step away.
Hope that helps.
- Neomorte
I agree with most posts on this subject... Do not tolerate any physical abuse from nobody.
That guy would of been out of my game faster than he could say "critical fumble".
Question: Would you play cards with somebody who threw ashtrays and kicked other players everytime he'd loose a round? NO! And roleplaying games are no different.
Losing is part of every game... If you don't know how to loose then you don't know how to play.
I'd tell him to take a long hike in the outback to think about that.
Ultradan
I think people are missing the point of why this kid can't throw the player out of the game. The player is a bully. He's assualting the DM in front of other people and nobody is doing anything. And that is just over some Dex damage. What is this jerk going to do to the kid that actually has the temerity to throw him out of the game?
I want to tell you the same thing everyone else just said, but I know that's not the reality of it. Instead I suggest talking to the other players, and if they feel the same way about this kid , do what talion09 suggested and cancel the game unil you guys can play without this kid bothering you. If they don't feel that way, then quit. You said other gamers were at your school, find one of their games to sit in on. Is there a hobby store near you? You could possibly find a game or gamers there.
I know it sucks to be a rat, but you should really consider telling a parent or principal that you're afraid of what this kid is capable of doing and what he's done.
I had this same sitation many years ago, but this was on an adult level and thus much more serious. I had a guy that had anger managment issues that was wrecking his marriage and his friendships. I wasn't aware of the former until some time later.
I did the diplomatic mature thing and talked to him between games and even after/before games about 3 times. Never raised my voice; told him my concerns very rationally. This did not work since all we ended up doing was having a rehash of the same debates/arguments of certain in game situations.
When fights between him and other players became a threat in the game I had enough and finally told him (over the phone, mind you) that he had left me no choice but to ask him to leave the game. He didn't take it well, as you can imagine. Wanted to meet me somewhere and slug out. We were both nearly 30 at the time.
The moral to this story is that after the first discussion outside of the game, I should have got rid of him when the same problems kept repeating. My group and I wouldn't have had so many wasted gaming sessions and perhaps things wouldn't have escalated to the point they did.
My suggestion to you is to be completely honest and up front with this player and the rest of your group about how you feel. Do not waste time putting up with this kind of BS.
If you think that it's going to turn ugly with the possibility of a physical confrontation, then you just need to drop out of the game and tell the group exactly why you're dropping out. Maybe they'll come to their senses and admit that they don't like the other guy's behavior either. If they seem to be OK with it, then these aren't the kids you want to be gaming with.
If you want to keep hanging out with them in other types of settings, so be it. Just find a different group.
Now, as far as the gaming stuff you've mentioned, a paladin (as stated by others) has no business running around with a psychopath that likes to wear people's faces. The paladin needs to be stripped of his abilities until he atones and the CE sick-o needs to be hung or jailed, IMO.
What do you do when you have a problem player?
Both in game and out?
Here is my situation:
1. I am the DM for a group of four players.
2. ALL of them (except one) have the "video game mentality" (be the best you can, "power-play", don't bother to roleplay).
3. One of them has serious issues.This last point is my greatest concern (though the second is getting annoying, but I've found a solution to that, detailed near the end of this post). This player is becoming a serious problem, for a number of reasons:
1. Feels that the alignment CE gives him the license to go around things which disgust the other players, such as trying to skin peoples faces and then wearing them, claiming it gives him a bonus to Disguise. I have seriously toyed with the idea of forcing him to change his alignment to Neutral, but I feel that this is just too restrictive (as an added problem there is a lawful-good paladin in the party).
2. Has no respect for me, the DM. When told that an Imp dealt him Dexterity damage (which they do, with poison sting), he got up, ran around to my end of the table, put me in a karate arm hold, and took the MM off me. He examined it, holding up play for five minutes, before claiming I'd fudged the roll (I hadn't, but could you blame me if I had?) and telling me to roll again.
3. He says that unless I roll in the open (even for monsters and NPCs' attacks or skill checks) I'm cheating.
4. Orders me to work in his "background", which mainly consists of him being forced to slaughter all of his family.
Could anyone offer any ideas?
Now I know what you're thinking. TELL HIM TO GET LOST!
Sadly this is not an option, as he and I (and indeed, all of the players) go to the same high school, and as I'm fourteen I'm going to have to put up with him until the end of 2008 (he's in year ten, I in year 9). And, frankly, you've got to have some pity for the guy. No-one else is going to play DnD with him at school (we Australians have never had the "satanism" problem over here, but we...
So So young. In my world the moment someone comes up to me and puts me in a choke hold that's the moment they leave my house at best, if he were a "friend" if not I would call the cops.
Wow, dude this is more than a player problem; you cannot have someone in your game that assaults you. I recommend you talk to your parents about this and move the game into the kitchen or living room during times your parents can monitor; letting someone do this kind of abuse and doing nothing will only encourage more of the same, IMHO.
Additionally; I would write out a set of formal rules which player would need to agree to follow; for example; in my game; the players may use the players handbook; any book for spells or abilities they require for their character and nothing else. I have been very clear to my players that my monsters may or may not and probably will not conform to the monster manual and that exp points will be awarded for whatever monster abilities the creature has and they overcome. We also have ground rules for where to roll dice and other things that have been issues over the years. As gm you present the scenario; it is up to them to overcome it with any solution they think viable; your player who likes to put other skin faces on may indead get a bonus to disquise, if he modifies his other gear; his gate and such; but anybody who wears something like this in public is going to be picked up by any authority figure around and deeply scrutinized. Personally, I do not believe that anyone playing CE or NE alignments fit into a viable group unless all person are playing such alignments; your job is easy though; just have various groups of good guys chase them from town to town and such; the politics of the group will be strongest rule the weak; so expect lots of browbeating and pc deaths; just stay neutral and present the scenario and story; sheesh; hope this helps. Please let us know how it goes.
When we had problems with our group we had the luck of having to move. Since we moved to a place that was not so easy to hold game and most of the players either didn't want to host or made it too hard to play at thier house our group reformed itself. Not to mention I didn't forward our address so they would have to call us if they wanted to see us, of which they haven't.
Remember, if that kid even lays a finger on you and actually hurts you, it's considered abuse, and since from what I can tell both of you are under 18, it's techinally child abuse. Being an ex-childcare provider, it's a touchy subject. If in the process of having a talk with this player he even attempts to get violent, DO NOT hestitate to call 911, the good men and women that answer those phones are there to help you. I know, my aunt is one of those people.
However I understand the hard feelings with asking any player to leave, exspecially if there is close or long term friendships withen the group. Some of the players we had problems with had been my fiance's friend since he was 5, the others since highschool. We were able to smooth things out with his childhood friend, but things are still a tad rough around some of our old players.
If you can't find a way to tell him to behave or to leave there are some ways to make it harder to play:
1. Require who hosts D&D to rotate houses and require everyone find their own ride to game.
2. See if changing the time or day of game will make it to where your other players can attend, but it is more difficult for him to make it.
3. Move and don't forward your address... not really a choice for you, but for some it is.
4. Enforce a house rule that they don't like, like lowering and/or requiring point buy. Some powergamers (like the ones in my group) get so uppity about sometimes about even the most minor of rule changes that they will excuse themselves from the game.
5. Ask them to DM, tell them you need a little time to get some game material together and need someone to fill in for a week or two. Often if a powergamer has to DM they began to realize the work you put in and chill out.
Remember, worst come to best really there are many people that run very fun online games.
As for the beginning of a Horror Players thread... little tip, flirting with the DM's girlfriend when the DM is leaving the house to pick up some pizza for you is NOT a way to be invited back. *shutters*
I apoligize for being a bit rough about how to get rid of players, but as you can see from above, I had my reasons for wanting space, as you might find you need space too.
Let us know how things go.
I completely agree, Lord Eisen. James does have deep seated mental problems which, unfortunantly, we are forced to work with. However, next time he goes psycho, he's going to be forced out off the house...
NOTE TO THE UNAWARE: This user is the (current) DM in our game.
We should have a good game this Sunday though.
Oh wait, that's because he won't be there...
In summary, mainly for the purposes of compiling all the relevant information for our erstwhile DM Nick (Elan the Bard on these boards):
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Thanks heaps for all the experienced advice guys, I'll keep you posted (no pun intended). In the meantime, feel free to start up a "Horror Players" Thread here, like the corresponding horror DMs one over at Dragon.
I completely agree, Lord Eisen. James does have deep seated mental problems which, unfortunantly, we are forced to work with. However, next time he goes psycho, he's going to be forced out off the house...
Well, I have not much to add, but I would recommend not using real names if discussing things like these on public messageboards. It might might lead to ugly repercussions.
And, if someone has mental problems, it is NOT the job of a gaming group to help him there - this NEVER succeeds, it only leads to more trouble.And pointing the knife at someone is something I would not tolerate even if its half or more in jest...
Stefan
I completely agree, Lord Eisen. James does have deep seated mental problems which, unfortunantly, we are forced to work with. However, next time he goes psycho, he's going to be forced out off the house...Well, I have not much to add, but I would recommend not using real names if discussing things like these on public messageboards. It might might lead to ugly repercussions.
And, if someone has mental problems, it is NOT the job of a gaming group to help him there - this NEVER succeeds, it only leads to more trouble.
And pointing the knife at someone is something I would not tolerate even if its half or more in jest...Stefan
True, but in this case I'm pretty sure the problem player in question would know who they were talking about.
How many 15 year old students in Australia play in a group that recently had a DM change due to the player in question physically abusing the former DM over an Imp dealing Dex damage? Or make a habit of wearing the faces of dead foes?
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Ask him to DM to see how much time and effort goes into it (though he may just put no effort into it at all or railroad). Set out formal rules for your players; what rulebooks can be used at the table etc (thanks to Valegrim for this suggestion). Limit alignments (particularily if two PC's alignment's clash- such as LG and CE). Incidentally, in the case of this player, we forced him to become true neutral. But now he has decreed that he is taking the Assassin PrC next time we level up, so he won't fit the alighment requirements (any evil). Any suggestions? DM should just stop him as it conflicts with AL? Any player being violent to anyone else (regardless of whether the "victim" is the DM or not) should be evicted. I was talking to some guy today who said that this same player had threatened him with a knife (from the situation is sounded partly in jest) at a Magic: the Gathering tournament. Make everyone realise that the DM is boss, and as such is allowed to run the game however he wants, whether that means limiting PrC's, feats ("but it's out of Song and Silence!"), rolling behind the screen or even fudging rolls (if its for the good of the game). If they are munchkins, just up the EL to suit. If the player's getting really uppity, just have something bad happen to him, EG: Paladin order hunting him down and making him repent, getting magic item stolen etc. Rule discussions are held after the session- what the DM rules goes. If worst comes to worst- critical fumble. (thank-you, Ultradan!).
I would like to take this opportunity to apologise to the player in question, as some of what I have said and what has been replied to has been taken out of context. Looking at this board for the first time through the eyes of the player, I could understand how offense could have been caused.
Also, I withdraw my remark about the game being fun when he wasn't there, this remark was said in haste and in bad taste.
= The Lord
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I would like to take this opportunity to apologise to the player in question, as some of what I have said and what has been replied to has been taken out of context. Looking at this board for the first time through the eyes of the player, I could understand how offense could have been caused.
Also, I withdraw my remark about the game being fun when he wasn't there, this remark was said in haste and in bad taste.
= The Lord
Please excuse me if I am over-reacting, but your sudden 180 on the situation is setting of warning bells for me.
Are you OK? Are you safe? What happened?
I would like to take this opportunity to apologise to the player in question, as some of what I have said and what has been replied to has been taken out of context. Looking at this board for the first time through the eyes of the player, I could understand how offense could have been caused.
Also, I withdraw my remark about the game being fun when he wasn't there, this remark was said in haste and in bad taste.
= The Lord
I wouldn't worry about it too much, man. If he's been offended, maybe he needs this kind of wake-up call. First and last names haven't been tossed around (except for one case and if you ask the administrator, maybe it can be edited). The important thing here is that you feel safe playing the game you enjoy with your friends. If you feel like you need to walk on eggshells around one player in particular, even if he's the nicest guy in the world outside of the game, it's seriously impeding your fun. And even though it's not the nicest thing to say that you had more fun when he wasn't around, from what I can see (and it doesn't seem at all like you're lying about this just to get him in trouble or paint him as "the bad guy") he hasn't been the nicest guy to you or even other players in his environment.
One of the best aspects of this game is that it's in person with people that are (hopefully) your friends, people you can relax with. In an MMORPG or whatever, it's almost okay to be Mr. Anger Management Issues because you can just /ignore or whatever. But /ignore is much harder in real life, as I'm sure you know. You have to ask yourself if this is really worth it for a game. I honestly wouldn't blame you if you just wanted to hang up your DM screen for a while just to avoid confrontation if at all possible. Especially if it seems like he has serious anger issues, beyond just being a sore loser. Especially in a game where everyone wins! This is a cooperative experience, at heart.
You can always play Monopoly. Wait. Then he'll accuse the banker of cheating and put him in a headlock. Go fish?
Please excuse me if I am over-reacting, but your sudden 180 on the situation is setting of warning bells for me.Are you OK? Are you safe? What happened?
NO, I'm stuck in a warehouse somewhere, in a dark and musty crate, and someone's sharpening knives outside...GET ME OUT!
Basically what happened was that the player found this thread (I don't know how) and expressed mild irritability at its contents. Basically you guys (through no fault of your own) may have miscontrued my words or exagerrated the situation.
Thanks a lot to James Keegan for his post - it had a lot of really good advice.
ALSO, thanks to my DM for withdrawing what he said earlier.
= The Lord
OK this is what we're going to do at our next session:
- We are going to start again from level one (as opposed to where we were- level five).
- We are going to roll up our characters right there and then.
- We are going to focus on roleplaying.
- We are going to abide by that set of guidelines I put up earlier, which condensed everyone's valuable advice (thanks a lot for that guys).
- We are going to pay attention to giving the DM the "respek" he's due.
I'm going to start a Campaign Journal (from player's perspective) as well, so I'll post a link here when it's up.
= The Lord.
Well, if the particular player that caused this thread to start is reading it, I think now would be a good time for you to chime in and tell us your side of the story.
Just remember folks: It's a game, and meant to be fun for everyone at the table, including the one who runs the show.
ah, Eisen? i will admit we have problems, stat wise and other, but that is nooo need to start again. perhaps we can tweak them, give those needed alignment changes, inforce a more RPG atmosphere, and, instead of punishing us all, only punish those who infringe our rules. perhaps loss of exp? we'll discuss it more tommorow...
This what was suggested to me by the player whose character is rellicad the druid. He is willing to make a new character.
Hey, this isn't because you've prepared a published module that's for level five is it?Meh, talk to me tomorrow.
Remember, if that kid even lays a finger on you and actually hurts you, it's considered abuse, and since from what I can tell both of you are under 18, it's techinally child abuse. Being an ex-childcare provider, it's a touchy subject. If in the process of having a talk with this player he even attempts to get violent, DO NOT hestitate to call 911, the good men and women that answer those phones are there to help you. I know, my aunt is one of those people.
Wow, you paint me in such a great light. And no, it's juvenile assault and battery.
Well, if the particular player that caused this thread to start is reading it, I think now would be a good time for you to chime in and tell us your side of the story.
Glad you asked. I'd like to say that what Lord Eisen has said may be well-intentioned, but hurtful, and completely innaccurate.
1. Feels that the alignment CE gives him the license to go around things which disgust the other players, such as trying to skin peoples faces and then wearing them, claiming it gives him a bonus to Disguise. I have seriously toyed with the idea of forcing him to change his alignment to Neutral, but I feel that this is just too restrictive (as an added problem there is a lawful-good paladin in the party).
First and foremost, this is a game. It is not a projection of myself into a fatasy world, nor how I imagine my ideal personality. Secondly, this isn't a reflection of what happens in the campaign. I asked Lord Eisen if this was acceptable, becaus the idea of roleplaying an evil character with a decidely unsual twist was interesting. When Lord Eisen said no, I promptly stopped any further discussion about this topic, and did nothing like this in-game. I thought the paladin in the party would be an interesting contrast, and provide my character with an incentive to hide his actions.
2. Has no respect for me, the DM. When told that an Imp dealt him Dexterity damage (which they do, with poison sting), he got up, ran around to my end of the table, put me in a karate arm hold, and took the MM off me. He examined it, holding up play for five minutes, before claiming I'd fudged the roll (I hadn't, but could you blame me if I had?) and telling me to roll again.
Lord Eisen made this roll while I was out of the room, getting a drink for him, as we were at my house. (And no, my mother was not baking cookies, and did notice what was going on) One of the other gamers, who shall remain nameless, had been abusing me verbally, after accepting my hospitality. I was hurt about this, and returned to find that my character had apparently suffered 10 points of Dex damage (my characters main attribute). I did not place Lord Eisen in "A karate arm-hold", but did retrieve my Monster manual, as he'd borrowed my copy. I saw that Imps did indeed Dex damage, but to have a roll like that take place while I wasn't even present seemed a bit strange.
4. Orders me to work in his "background", which mainly consists of him being forced to slaughter all of his family.
Actually the reverse opposite. I politley asked Lord Eisen, and it was actually avenging my family.
And pointing the knife at someone is something I would not tolerate even if its half or more in jest...
And if that had actually happened, I'd still agree with you.
You can always play Monopoly. Wait. Then he'll accuse the banker of cheating and put him in a headlock. Go fish?
Ouch. Just ouch. I guess that would mean I'd have to headlock myself.
James
Audiatur et altera pars is all I can say to that - hear also the other side. The picture is somewhat different now...
Try to get your problems straight by talking to each other, not by posting on this messageboard, as everybody obviously has his own versions of what happened, and this community can only judge from what is presented. And sometimes, witnesses can´t even agree on the color of a car after an accident...
If you need it, get a third (presumed neutral) party to help you sorting things out - perhaps an open-minded teacher. Family members are by default not neutral...
Stefan
Sounds to me like you guys have got some definite communication problems. I suggest that next time you guys all get together, instead of playing, you have a frank discussion about what playing means to each of you. It's easy to assume that one person or the other is "just being a jerk," when the actual truth of the matter lies in a different light. I've run into such a situation on more than one occasion.
Talk about what kind of game you'd like to have. If someone in the group feels uncomfortable with vile content (like skinning people's faces off), it's probably best to set aside that character idea for another time. Beyond that, does the group as a whole want more action, more intruige? Would the players be happier if the campaign was set in a war time, and they got to play at being soldiers, or perhaps something more along the lines of post-apocalypse, scrounging for supplies and fighting off mutants.
And when you do play again, I'd really suggest making up new characters, together. It will help restart things, get rid of bad emotions, and since you'd be making them together, you won't end up with a paladin and a chaotic evil rogue in the same party (which, by the way, can't work at all - paladins lose pretty much everything if they associate with evil).
Hope this helps,
Peace and Goodwill,
TK
By the sound of things this guy has serious issues that you need to sit down and talk through, otherwise he'll just get worse.
There are several rules that you need to understand when playing D&D that he has apparently forgotten
1. Respect the DM, he is god
2. Do not assult any players, ever
3. If you are feeling pissed off at the other players or their actions talk about it
4. If you have a tendancy towards violent behaviour learn to control it, or don't play
5. And finally Respect The DM
I hope that you guys can talk it out, if not kick him out before something bad happens
Wow, you paint me in such a great light. And no, it's juvenile assault and battery.
My apoligies, I only had to work with what was posted in the first post and partially due to my training and experience I assume the worst.
State law varies from place to place and I was trained that by law if I saw child abuse, which they defined as pretty much any kind of bad thing happening to anyone under 18 *I* go could to jail for not reporting it. Seriously, I had an old boyfriend be nasty to me and the school cop came up to me and told me (because I was 17 and a child-care provider and he knew it) that I could go to jail if I didn't report what he did to me. Laws are weird but are out there to protect people.
But it sounds like you didn't hurt your friend at all. I'm glad you told your side of the story. I personally given a choice wouldn't let one of my DM's touch my MM (2nd ed) because then he'd never stop trying to update them all to 3.5 and I'd never get him to go outside again. *smiles*
Please accept my apoligies and please keep in mind, while my post painted you in a bad light, it was also a reminder to everyone that no one has the right to cause anyone bodily harm.
Hope you guys can all work things out.
By the sound of things this guy has serious issues that you need to sit down and talk through, otherwise he'll just get worse.
There are several rules that you need to understand when playing D&D that he has apparently forgotten
1. Respect the DM, he is god
2. Do not assult any players, ever
3. If you are feeling pissed off at the other players or their actions talk about it
4. If you have a tendancy towards violent behaviour learn to control it, or don't play
5. And finally Respect The DM
I hope that you guys can talk it out, if not kick him out before something bad happens
Ooh, harsh. A case of "I didn't read all of the thread" syndrome. Also, you don't know me, and didn't read my post. Almost everyone else has apologised, yet you jump right at me, and accuse me of mental issues. Ok, fine, this might be a bit harsh, but I just posted a lengthy reply, and you didn't even read, so I think next time maybe read the whole thread before putting your foot in your mouth.
Addressing the issue that Stebehil and Thanis raised. This is already underway, and I initiated this before writing my previous post. While I'm not blaming Lord Eisen, I was quite willing to change my behaviour, as I pointed out in my last post. The main thing I shouldn't have done, was take the Monster Manual, but I'd been given a hard time by two members of the group all day, after inviting them into my home.
My apoligies, I only had to work with what was posted in the first post and partially due to my training and experience I assume the worst.
State law varies from place to place and I was trained that by law if I saw child abuse, which they defined as pretty much any kind of bad thing happening to anyone under 18 *I* go could to jail for not reporting it. Seriously, I had an old boyfriend be nasty to me and the school cop came up to me and told me (because I was 17 and a child-care provider and he knew it) that I could go to jail if I didn't report what he did to me. Laws are weird but are out there to protect people.
But it sounds like you didn't hurt your friend at all. I'm glad you told your side of the story. I personally given a choice wouldn't let one of my DM's touch my MM (2nd ed) because then he'd never stop trying to update them all to 3.5 and I'd never get him to go outside again. *smiles*
Please accept my apoligies and please keep in mind, while my post painted you in a bad light, it was also a reminder to everyone that no one has the right to cause anyone bodily harm.
Hope you guys can all work things out.
Man, I feel like a real heel now. I fully accept laws are meant to protect people, but as this is in Australia, we only have one nation wide legal system. The system here is broken into two pieces, adult, and juvenile. This is because it is reckoned that children have less control over their actions. Thus, child abuse only takes place when the offender is a legal adult. Otherwise, that would be juvenile assault and battery. I understand what you're saying about physical harm.
Honestly, I think the biggest problem is that some of your group isn't as mature as you are. That's hard to get around. I might suggest you find a local RPGA game to play in to see how mature gamers play.
Ow. Just ow.
=D('v'us)
By the sound of things this guy has serious issues that you need to sit down and talk through, otherwise he'll just get worse.
There are several rules that you need to understand when playing D&D that he has apparently forgotten
1. Respect the DM, he is god
2. Do not assult any players, ever
3. If you are feeling pissed off at the other players or their actions talk about it
4. If you have a tendancy towards violent behaviour learn to control it, or don't play
5. And finally Respect The DM
I hope that you guys can talk it out, if not kick him out before something bad happens
Ooh, harsh. A case of "I didn't read all of the thread" syndrome. Also, you don't know me, and didn't read my post. Almost everyone else has apologised, yet you jump right at me, and accuse me of mental issues. Ok, fine, this might be a bit harsh, but I just posted a lengthy reply, and you didn't even read, so I think next time maybe read the whole thread before putting your foot in your mouth.
'"I didn't read all of the thread?" syndrome' Actually I did, however I do not see the reason that people should be apologising to you, from what you posted you sounded like an unstable person who (all things considered) was just trying to justify attacking your 'friends', if anything you should be apologising to them. And before you jump at me I know about people like you who are always trying to justify there actions, reguardless however wrong they were
By the sound of things this guy has serious issues that you need to sit down and talk through, otherwise he'll just get worse.
There are several rules that you need to understand when playing D&D that he has apparently forgotten
1. Respect the DM, he is god
2. Do not assult any players, ever
3. If you are feeling pissed off at the other players or their actions talk about it
4. If you have a tendancy towards violent behaviour learn to control it, or don't play
5. And finally Respect The DM
I hope that you guys can talk it out, if not kick him out before something bad happens
Ooh, harsh. A case of "I didn't read all of the thread" syndrome. Also, you don't know me, and didn't read my post. Almost everyone else has apologised, yet you jump right at me, and accuse me of mental issues. Ok, fine, this might be a bit harsh, but I just posted a lengthy reply, and you didn't even read, so I think next time maybe read the whole thread before putting your foot in your mouth.
'"I didn't read all of the thread?" syndrome' Actually I did, however I do not see the reason that people should be apologising to you, from what you posted you sounded like an unstable person who (all things considered) was just trying to justify attacking your 'friends', if anything you should be apologising to them. And before you jump at me I know about people like you who are always trying to justify there actions, reguardless however wrong they were
Right, because despite you having never met me, you are quite ready to put me into a stereotype. Eisen has already said he's sorry, and for you to post your "advice" afterwards, clearly shows that you don't care about the issue he posted, and that you were enjoying verbally attacking someone. And that's only if you did read the whole thread. What other reason would you have to post this material, if you knew I was ready this thread? There isn't one. "Justify attaking my friends"? That didn't even happen, as I pointed out. If taking back something you own is regarded as assault, then the laws have changed since last time I checked. And I have apologised to Eisen. As you don't seem to have realised, we do speak outside the Internet. After he made that post, I talked to him about it, and we both apologised. So really, what was your point in posting?
Also, Archade, I'm sorry I snapped at you. It was an entirely reasonable assumption. Completely unlike Wielder's.
D
I would just like to request that everyone stops posting on this thread.
Though my intention in making it was to solve our group's problems, I am beginning to think that this thread has created more problems than it has solved. A valuable lesson has been learned.
"D'v'us", whilst I see and respect your intentions, could you please stop this petty game of one-man-upmanship with the other members of this site (namely Lord Wielder).
The Lord