Hello Paizonians! I have an issue that I could use some imput on and if I could get some advice on how to fix psionic classes and thier abilities. I like psions but I know that they are too overpowered when it comes to damage potential compared to everyone else. This is because of thier ability to easily pump out 20 level 9 spells a day at max level with the stupid amount of power points they gain. I also like psionics and do not wish to see it die just because they are overpowered. I understand that psionics, while it does not have a great explanation of thier inherent power, is interesting. I like the power point system and allows for cool combinations for your psion(s) to use in and out of combat. I just keep looking over my 3.5 Psionic's handbook and trying to see how to balance them out w/o killing the Psions. I want to make them balanced compared to the other classes in D&D and not just a damage dealer as they are made as in 3.5 edition. Another thing to help me out is to suggest how they gain thier powers and how they can use them.
P.S. Please give advice on the subject please and just dont say statements like, "Its stupid, get rid of them." or so on and so forth.
You do know that manifesters can't use more powerpoints than their manifester level to manifest a power, right?
Psionics being overpowered is only a myth.
Myth: The XPH is Overpowered
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253
Myth: The XPH is Overpowered II
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=416446
I imagine psions the way that I would like to imagine wizards. Like philosophers who have had the time and patience to tap into their subconsious. Kind of like the casters in Magic the Gathering. There's a great book about that game called The Brothers' War (and it's the only good book about that game) that exemplifies my idea of the archetypal mage. Urza and Mishra are brothers who love each other but eventually come to blows after gaining rulership over several great nations. At the book's close, Urza is forced to destroy the abomination that Mishra has become. At the moment that he does so, Urza converts all his grief, rage and sadness at the destruction that his war has caused into raw energy; this is what fuels the mighty spell which destroys Mishra and half of their world.
I know that doesn't really help your game balance issue but I've never played a psion. As a side note, any idea why the powerpoint system was never used for the basic basic classes? Why the game creators went to the trouble of creating this bogus spell memorization system in the first place is beyond me.
TS
You do know that manifesters can't use more powerpoints than their manifester level to manifest a power, right?
Psionics being overpowered is only a myth.
I do know you can only chug the amount of power points in your spells as your level, its HOW MANY per day they get. They get close to 400 near level 20....that roughly means they can use 20 level 9 spells maxed at level 20 manifester level. Something has got to be wrong with this statistic. Sure they can use only 20 level 9 spells per day.....that can pretty much waste an entire army.
I do know you can only chug the amount of power points in your spells as your level, its HOW MANY per day they get. They get close to 400 near level 20....that roughly means they can use 20 level 9 spells maxed at level 20 manifester level. Something has got to be wrong with this statistic. Sure they can use only 20 level 9 spells per day.....that can pretty much waste an entire army.
I really think you're oversimplifying it. Have you actually playtested a level 20 psion with 400 power points?
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I do know you can only chug the amount of power points in your spells as your level, its HOW MANY per day they get. They get close to 400 near level 20....that roughly means they can use 20 level 9 spells maxed at level 20 manifester level. Something has got to be wrong with this statistic. Sure they can use only 20 level 9 spells per day.....that can pretty much waste an entire army.I really think you're oversimplifying it. Have you actually playtested a level 20 psion with 400 power points?
I agree on this one...
Which is to say that I also disagree with the OP's figures...
Something has got to be wrong with this statistic. Sure they can use only 20 level 9 spells per day.....that can pretty much waste an entire army.
That statistic is, in fact, meaningless. The reason why: Any Wizard worth his salt can decimate a couple armies with just his 3rd level spells, maybe dipping into 4th or 5th level spells if he wants to take them out with style and panache. The big balancing fact of the above stastic is that your typical Psion must use the equivalent of a 5th-9th level spell to effectively use most of his 1st-3rd level powers.
I've played both to around 12th level, and I assure you I felt FAR more powerful playing the wizard. The Psion has an enviable ability to open up a whole can of hurt on a single target, but he doesn't even come CLOSE to touching what the Wizard was able to do to battlefield control.
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Hmmm...
I only see one damaging spell on the 9th level Psion list in the first place, it's not area effect, and maximizing it would cost 21 pp, which you couldn't do, and it would drain your psionic focus anyway.
It does 20D6 to one target... compare to delayed blast fireball (a lower level), meteor swarm, etc.
Likewise for the tornado blast psychokineticist... it's cool, but not maximizable. Nor does it seem all that powerful compared to 9th level spells. (and, since the pk focuses almost entirely on blast spells, he prolly should be a darn good damager anyway)
Anyway, I could say more, but must eat...
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OK, I’m spending too much time on this, but the math started to interest me.
Anyway, assuming your generi-Psion has 400 power points (a wis of roughly 22) he can fire off Assimilation 23 times for 20D6 each time, plus some bonus temp HP. So, that’s avg 70 damage to one target with a TOUCH effect. Anyway, 23 x 70 = 1,610.
The Sorcerer, though, with 6 8th level spells, can fire off six maximized fireballs. That’s sixty each time. But, unlike the Assimilation, it’s usable at range, and you can hit all foes in a 20’ radius (against a massed army this is particularly appalling: four hexes in all directions from the center, each getting hit).
You could easily put this at a dozen, against a massed army, and that may even be low, but let’s use that: 60x6x12 = 4.320.
And that’s only using level 8 spells. Toss in Delayed Blast, Chain Lightening, Meteor Swarm… and they’re all useable at range, against multiple targets. Kinda necessary against an army.
...but anyway. You can't amximize 9th level damaging psionics at lvl 20. So, be happy...
A kineticist gets a spell called Tornado blast which is basiclly a meteor swarm only with violent winds. 40ft. radius burst and deals just as much as meteor swarm can. Sure you cannot spread it out like swarm, but it has the same rules basiclly. Touch attack that deals 8d6 (no save) and d6 per power point up to 24d6. Basiclly that and up to 20 times. Sure only one class gets it, but that one psion type pulverizes the other psions. Not even wilders can get that mean.
Yes 400 is what a psion would have by level 20. They get 342 normally and a bonus of about 60-80 with just 26 Intelligence. I dont see that being hard to attain at that level.
A big balancing factor is the fact they gain spells like Sorcerors and can switch them just like one. They still get 36 spells. Psionic items could also be rare and hard to find comapared to just arcane and divine items. I just find it hard to balance ><.
Psionic items could also be rare and hard to find compared to just arcane and divine items. I just find it hard to balance ><.
For me this is the big balancer. While I do use Psionic Magic Items there is no way they are as common as Arcane magic Items. The Mage is going to come across a Staff of the Magi or the equivalent at some point in his career - in fact there may come a day were our wizard is wracking his brain trying to decide whether he should keep that Staff of the Magi[i] or go with the [i]Staff of Power the party just found. Plus he will presumably be carrying a personal library worth of scrolls. The Psion ... well he can trade in his share of the magic loot at half price and buy something I guess.
The various books are full of cool arcane loot (Rings of Wizardry etc.) but just about all the halfway descent psionic magic comes exclusively from the Complete Psionic.
I figure that in the end this should certainly balance any benefits that the Psionic Character might experience from being more powerful when characters only face 2 encounters in a day. That library of Scrolls will come in really handy when the DM decides to run that epic escape (or maybe its a rescue) adventure - you know the one were there is no time to rest...Not sure what the Psionic is going to do after the third encounter when he's tapped out all of his PSPs - I guess he can always fire his crossbow.