The adventure, The Prince of Redhand, declares that Ilthane's Brood has not been able to defeat the acid wraith yet. This implies that they have tried. I find that most confusing since, by my calculations, it would take an extraordinary amount of luck for the acid wraith to kill even one of Ilthane's Brood, let alone all of them. Now my calculations assume a few things:
1) The acid wraith stays as far back in the room in the puddle as possible.
2) If the acid wraith wins initiative it delays (wishing to take a full/whirlwind attack against the dragons once they are all adjacent), meaning it doesn't care if it loses. It is quite intelligent and ought to easily discern that the dragons don't have ranged attacks.
3) The dragons use their flight ability to gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls for higher ground and aid them in flanking.
I feel these are all fair assumptions. All things considered, each dragon does an average of about 20 points of damage with a full attack. On the first round they each do about 6 points of damage since a) one of them (the first to engage) doesn't get the flank benefit and b) after moving in, each of them only get a single attack. Here's a round-by-round synopsis.
Round 1 - Acid wraith either delays or loses init. Dragons move in. Acid wraith takes AoO on each using Combat Reflexes, deals about 20 points of damage to each. Each dragon deals about 6 points of damage to acid wraith. Acid wraith heals 15 points. Acid wraith takes an attack against each dragon dealing an average of another 20 points to each. Total hp for each dragon ~
100. Total hp for acid wraith ~130.
Round 2 - Dragons full attack, earch dealing about 20 points of damage this time. Acid wraith heals 15 points, reciprocates with 20 points of damage to each dragon. Total hp for each dragon 80. Total hp for acid wraith ~65.
Round 3 - Dragons each deal an average of 20 points to the acid wraith again with a second full attack. Acid wraith is defeated and each dragon has taken less than half its hp in damage.
Now the first round seems brutal for the dragons because the acid wraith effectively gets two attacks (one for the AoO because of reach and one when it takes its action) on each dragon while each dragn only gets a single measly bite attack, but even a creature of average human intelligence (10, which the dragons have) should be able to figure out that once they start laying into the acid wraith, it can't resist their punishment for long. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that statistically, it is practically impossible fo the dragons to lose since they will still have about 20 hp each at the end of round 3 even if the acid wraith scores a critical hit EVERY TIME. The dragons may no know exactly how many hit points the acid wraith has, but they should quickly clue in to the fact that they are matching the creature 4 for 1 and its not like there wouldn't be some indication that the creature is taking a severe beating.
My statistical analysis accounted for the probability of hitting the various creatures' respective ACs, the average damage roll of each attack, the fact that the acid wraith would be using Dodge on one dragon each turn, and that the dragons would get a +1 to their attack from high ground and +2 for flanking (depending on what you consider flanking, the fact that the dragons are a bit off the ground might make them not flanking but this is the difference of about 1 point of damage per dragon-round). I ignored all acid effects since both are immune to acid.
To be honest, I didn't need to do this statistical analysis to realize the flaw. The analysis simply proves that my initial hunch was correct, overwhelmingly correct as it turns out. Not that there isn't that infinitessimally small probability that the dragons always miss and the acid wraith always hits, but it is statistically unlikely with over 99% confidence. So I pose two questions.
1) What was going on in the writer's head when he wrote this encounter? Did I miss something?
2) What does Paizo (and others) suggest be done to fix this little problem?
If you aren't a stickly for realism you can use whatever silly reason you want, but I honestly think my players are going to be savvy enough to realize that four dragons, even young ones, could probably have beaten this thing handily if they wanted. I've thought of making the acid wraith tougher, but it would have to be significantly tougher to even pose a threat to the dragons. The PCs will be given a run for their money because of all the acid effects (unless they figure out to cast energy immunity or similar spells), but the dragons haven't a thing to worry about.
One argument might be made that the dragons are CE. That's fine. It doesn't mean they are stupid or foolish. It would be obvious to them that it's pointless for them all to kill each other first because alone, none of them can stand up to the acid wraith. I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons they haven't already killed each other. They probably would find a way to cooperate long enough to kill an acid wraith. At that point they can all fight over Ilthane's hoard.
I'm assuming this is just an oversight. I hate to pick apart such a small issue, but to me it was blatantly obvious that the dragons could have beaten the creature.
I still love the AoW. I can't say enough good things about it. This isn't a b%~@& and moan thread where I call Erik and James and Jason and the others losers. I like the adventures a lot and my players have enjoyed it too. I just like it so much that I'm holding it to a high standard. So please don't flame me saying "you're just another whiner, don't buy it if you don't like it."
(I'm also an obsessive-compulsive person so I notice little details like this and they become egregiously magnified in my mind.)
You dont go to the puppet show to look for the strings do you? Or do you? ;)
*cough*
1. The acid wraith is non-corporeal... did you include the 50% miss chance into your math? Thats a nasty bit that people miss in the stats. It can sink thru the floor to regenerate if it wants.. out of harms way. an intelligent non-corporeal opponent with spring attack is hell. yes if he stand still they can beat him. alot of monsters aren't much chop if played like skeletons or golems...
1.5 at a second look the breath weapons strength damage might be an undead effect not a adic one but I'm scratching my head as to whether it would be a good idea
2. The green dragons at that size are fairly cowardly and of average (10) human intelligence/wisdom and are limited a bit by being chaotic evil and greedy - their opponent has 15 int, 12 wis and 25 cha- he's basicly an undead genie - getting past the outsider/undead problems by being bound to the area for a long time and imbued with bucket loads (pun) of alchemical magical power. The module sort of gives the idea that eventualy the dragons might work out some solution.. (more puns)
3. The dragons don't have the advantage of your math- they don't know that the non-corporeal thing twice their size that regenerates can be beat in 3 rounds on average assuming it doesn't make use of it's intelligence..
4. Yeh I agreed that acid immunity and the bad calculation that DnD does on dragon CR in general means that the Cr 16 acidwraith is not as good against the 4 x CR 10 dragons as it should be but hey you get that in any system
*crack*
The dragons don't have the advantage of your math- they don't know that the non-corporeal thing twice their size that regenerates can be beat in 3 rounds on average assuming it doesn't make use of it's intelligence..
I think that´s the main point. The young and inexperienced dragons just plain don´t know what the hell this thing is, and don´t want to risk their lives on it.
Stefan
I don't know if this is still the case in 3rd ed. but in previous editions black dragons were incredibly cowardly, I am sure they gave a half-hearted attempt at taking it down but they really did't want to go toe-to-toe with it.
I certainly don't see them using "serpentine, serpentine!" squad tactics to attack it.
Please read the following:
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.
Those dragons don't strike as magic weapons, so they're screwed if they try to take on the acid wraith.
Yeah, I think that is the problem. A dragon's natural weapons don't count as magical weapons until the dragon is young adult or older. Aren't these dragons juveniles?
A juvenile or younger dragon can't hurt the acidwraith at all.
Hey could an incorporeal creature also get concealment by hiding in the walls????
Creative Director
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Yeah, I think that is the problem. A dragon's natural weapons don't count as magical weapons until the dragon is young adult or older. Aren't these dragons juveniles?
A juvenile or younger dragon can't hurt the acidwraith at all.
Exactly; the only way one of the black dragons can hurt the acidwraith is by tricking soemone else into attacking it for them.
.... "serpentine, serpentine!"
LOL! You're showing your age! Careful... you might confuse the young 'uns with quotes like that.
1. The acid wraith is non-corporeal... did you include the 50% miss chance into your math?
Aha! Well I feel silly now. I must have completely blitzed over the incorporeal subtype when I read this over. With no magic weapons, the dragons are hosed. Incidentally, this is the only reason that matters among the other reasons people have given in this thread (I've addressed or at least touched on each one in my first post).
I knew I had to be missing something. Thanks for pointing out what should have been obvious. I miss the forest for the trees sometimes. I should have been clued in by the name of the creature if nothing else a "wraith" typically is incorporeal.
LOL! You're showing your age! Careful... you might confuse the young 'uns with quotes like that.
It's kinda funny because I saw this recently in a Cartoon Network show my son was watching....I don't even remember which show but I thought it was cool that the cartoon writer would bother to put in an obvious joke for the older crowd.
I think that´s the main point. The young and inexperienced dragons just plain don´t know what the hell this thing is, and don´t want to risk their lives on it.
Stefan
Heck, no one should know what it is. It's a new creature. If the PC's created a new creature by accident, and it was overly dangerous and looked frightening, They'd excercise caution.
Black Dragons being evil, maybe one will approach the
characters earlier and sell out it's siblings.
She could use a hat of disguise and claim to be a half dragon.
That works because 2 of the PCs in my game are 1/2 dragons.
I'll give her a pendant that jams detect evil.
Anyone know where that is in 3.5?
As far as the dragons' cowardice, I imagine their cravenly nature would even overcome any deal they made with each other. I think during the entire fight with the acidwraith each one would be keeping an eye on the exit, prepared to bolt at the first sign of adversity... especially if one of their hatchmates died, making their share of the eventual horde larger.
In another thread someone was wondering why the aicdwraith was incorporeal because he or she didn't feel it made sense for an acid-based creature. I think this thread has basically answered the question of why the decision to make it incorporeal was made. Otherwise, Illthane's brood would have killed it.