If a character casts enervation twice would the negative levels be 2d4? Can you direct me to official sources for the answers. Thanks.
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If a character casts enervation twice would the negative levels be 2d4? Can you direct me to official sources for the answers. Thanks.
Yup; negative levels stack. Also... you can crit someone with enervation, inflicting 2d4 negative levels all at once with one casting of the spell. Check page 293 of the DMG for the lowdown on how energy drain and negative levels work.
I read the energy drain description. I still have confusion because in the players handbook on page 171 it states that spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. Now on page 172 it states instantaneous spells work cumulatively. It does seem that enervation is erronously listed as an instantaneous spell when it seems to have a duration of 1 hr/level (max 15 hrs)
The spell listed as an example is ray of enfeeblement that does not stack but falls under the same effect with more than one different effect. A shadow's touch causes temporary strength damage but still stacks.
The enervation spell seems way too powerful for a 4th level spell when it can cause so many penalties and then stack. If a character has two enervation wands and uses the dual wand weilder feat from Complete Arcane, it would seem as though a character could cause a average penalty of -5 att,-5 saving throws and casting level. Then follow this up with a Fort save spell for a mage or a will save for a fighter and they are almost assured of failing. This can all be accomplished by a 7th level mage. He will burn through wands but that will be easily offset by his aquisition of magic items from the defeated.
I read the energy drain description. I still have confusion because in the players handbook on page 171 it states that spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.
Note that enervation provides none of those things. It's provides negative levels. Those negative levels, in turn, impose penalties on attack rolls, saving throws, etc., but the spell itself does not.
Now on page 172 it states instantaneous spells work cumulatively. It does seem that enervation is erronously listed as an instantaneous spell when it seems to have a duration of 1 hr/level (max 15 hrs)
No, that's not an error. An instantaneous spell's energy "comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting." (PHB, page 176.) The negative levels caused by enervation are a long-lasting consequence, but casting dispel magic on someone after he's been hit by the ray would do nothing to remove them, just as the hit points you lose when you get caught in a fireball will return in time (as you heal naturally), but can't be restored by dispel magic.
The spell listed as an example is ray of enfeeblement that does not stack but falls under the same effect with more than one different effect. A shadow's touch causes temporary strength damage but still stacks.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Ray of enfeeblement is a spell that provides a penalty on an attribute (Strength). Therefore, it does not stack with itself. A shadow's touch deals Strength damage, which does "stack with itself." Where's the confusion?
The enervation spell seems way too powerful for a 4th level spell when it can cause so many penalties and then stack.
Enervation is a good spell, no doubt about it, but hardly unbalanced with other 4th-level spells.
Note that enervation provides none of those things. It's provides negative levels. Those negative levels, in turn, impose penalties on attack rolls, saving throws, etc., but the spell itself does not. No, that's not an error. An instantaneous spell's energy "comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting." (PHB, page 176.) The negative levels caused by enervation are a long-lasting consequence, but casting dispel magic on someone after he's been hit by the ray would do nothing to remove them, just as the hit points you lose when you get caught in a fireball will return in time (as you heal naturally), but can't be restored by dispel magic.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Ray of enfeeblement is a spell that provides a penalty on an attribute (Strength). Therefore, it does not stack with itself. A shadow's touch deals Strength damage, which does "stack with itself." Where's the confusion?
My point is that often spells mimic abilities that are possessed by creatures but are not nearly as powerful. The spell suggestion is listed as a compulsion. On p.291 a compulsion is as an effect that makes the subject obey the caster. The suggestion does this but only if it is reasonable. It is not nearly the equal of a vampire's ability. Thus it would be fine for a spell to mimic energy drain but still not stack.
Enervation is a good spell, no doubt about it, but hardly unbalanced with other 4th-level spells.
I am not sure what 4th level spell would be equal to a character losing on average 2.5 from their attacks and saves without a save. The fact that it is only fourth level and thus usable in wand creation strikes me as being a bit out of balance.
Also if the spell stacks does the additional hp to undead stack as well? Could a vampire or lich with one minute to buff up from a wand then have 10d4x5 extra hps, an average of +125hps?
I have a character who has a shield of energy drain from the 3.0 Defenders of the Faith. Now since the enervation spell did not change much from 3.0-3.5 the magic item should not change except for perhaps cost. Now is it alright for a 6th level fighter to be able to deal 2d4 negative levels with his two attack and only need a touch attack? What about an 11th level character dealing 3d4? I know I am chosing some worst case senerios her but that is what you need to do when considering game balance.
The difference between a shadow's attack and the ray of enfeeblement spell is that the spell inflicts a penalty to str, while the shadow's attack causes damage. The spell's penalty is only in effect for the duration of the spell (1 min/lvl), and can be removed by dispelling the effect. Str damage such as that caused by a shadow is an actual injury, rather than a penalty.
Now, looking at my 3.5 PH, Ray of Enfeeblement has an unnamed penalty, which typically stacks with itself. Given that it's used as an example of something that doesn't, it's fair to assume that it's likely something like an enhancement penalty, and I imagine there's errata out there to support this.
And, yes. Quite often creature abilities and spells are very similar, with one or the other being much more powerful.
two spells i can think of offhand:
bestow curse: my phb is not directly in front of me, so i am winging a bit of the info. this requires a touch attack, and has a save, but take a look at what it can do: -6 to ANY ability score, among other things. and it is permanent. enervation has nothing on that, it will usually last an encounter if cast by a pc because most players kill all creatures. but crafty arcanists with this spell can let opponents go...
phantasmal killer: save or die. range is probably on par with enervation, but no attack roll needed. probably a really good second hit after an enervation.
like i said, these are just off the top of my head. there are plenty of "killer combos" at 4th level, too. one of my personal faves is evards black tentacles (behind your opponent), then fear. everyone who succumbs to the panicking effect of fear will likely run into the tentacles. this is especially bad in close, dark areas, with metamagic rods of still spell and silent spell.
tog
I agree with OP. The Enervation spell and Energy Drain spell should not stack. Why have a 9th level spell that drains 2d4 levels when two 4th level spells do the same thing thing?
No save. Cannot be dispelled because it is instantaneous. Touch attack.
Phantasmal killer allows TWO saving throws, one will, one fort. So, I guess maybe the rogue might be affected.
Bestow Curse allows a save and only imposes a penalty to attacks, etc.. 2 Enervation spells cast by one caster can easily drop the target into neg levels, and thus kill them. Not to mention if one is a critical hit.
Creature attacks and spells are two different things.
2 bestow curses can inflict a -12 con. and on average, assuming 7 hd for the wizard and the target, it will take 3 non-crit energy drains to kill the target. finally, should the target survive, they have a chance to get each and every negative level back. also, even with 2 saves, all it takes is one save that is difficult for the character to make and rolling the ever-present possibility of a '1' to kill a character with phantasmal killer. energy drain is no more effective than fireball or other damage spells in the hands of a pc, since they are (as i pointed out in my earlier post) likely to just kill all opponents. its devastating against players, however, since they are generally more likely to survive, and then they must make their saves to regain the levels lost to the spell. of course, all of this is rendered moot (for negative levels) by restoration items/spells, which either side could have.
tog
2 bestow curses can inflict a -12 con. and on average, assuming 7 hd for the wizard and the target, it will take 3 non-crit energy drains to kill the target. finally, should the target survive, they have a chance to get each and every negative level back. also, even with 2 saves, all it takes is one save that is difficult for the character to make and rolling the ever-present possibility of a '1' to kill a character with phantasmal killer. energy drain is no more effective than fireball or other damage spells in the hands of a pc, since they are (as i pointed out in my earlier post) likely to just kill all opponents. its devastating against players, however, since they are generally more likely to survive, and then they must make their saves to regain the levels lost to the spell. of course, all of this is rendered moot (for negative levels) by restoration items/spells, which either side could have.
tog
You are helping the point here. According to stacking rules bestow curse does not stack, p.171 PHB Vegepygmy asserted and I believe correctly that negative levels are the reason enervation should stack.
Would someone brought to negative levels then be killed and rise as a wight? p.293 DMG
I agree with OP. The Enervation spell and Energy Drain spell should not stack. Why have a 9th level spell that drains 2d4 levels when two 4th level spells do the same thing thing?
No save. Cannot be dispelled because it is instantaneous. Touch attack.
Phantasmal killer allows TWO saving throws, one will, one fort. So, I guess maybe the rogue might be affected.
Bestow Curse allows a save and only imposes a penalty to attacks, etc.. 2 Enervation spells cast by one caster can easily drop the target into neg levels, and thus kill them. Not to mention if one is a critical hit.
Creature attacks and spells are two different things.
Also of note concerning the two 4th spells equaling one ninth, SR in the matter is moot because caster level would be the same. Leaving you with only things such as globe of invulnerability and spell turning as defenses against the 4th level spell compared to the 9th. The 9th level spell has other effects but a character facing 9th level spells should have the resources to counter negative levels if he is able to face off with and escape a caster of 9th level spells.
holy crap. all mention of energy drain in that last post of mine should have been enervation. i have no idea why i subbed energy drain. i must have been brain dead at the exact moments i wrote those particular words.
as for bestow curse not stacking: when i mentioned my phb was unavailable, i forgot something... it sits 2 hours away from me normally. so i had nothing to go by except what rules i know by rote. that bestow curse does not stack is apparently not one of them.
out of curiousity, why a wight if the target rose from the dead? there are several undead that use energy drain-type abilities to multiply (for lack of a better word). of course, it would probably help to have the dmg (its with my phb) around so i could read the page cited.
tog
No problem, the other guy, I appreciate you input. Thanks again.
Why have a 9th level spell that drains 2d4 levels when two 4th level spells do the same thing thing?
Because, more often than not, you really want to get your CR9+ opponent out *real* fast. After CR 9, they start to have save-or-die abilities and dish out massive amounts of damage in one hit, so that one extra round it will take you to cast a second enervation might well be the round when you die.
So the fact that you can do 2d4 of negative levels in one round is really worth it: it brings down the opponent quick and, if he survives, you can do something else the round after.
Bocklin
Why have a 9th level spell that drains 2d4 levels when two 4th level spells do the same thing thing?
Because, more often than not, you really want to get your CR9+ opponent out *real* fast. After CR 9, they start to have save-or-die abilities and dish out massive amounts of damage in one hit, so that one extra round it will take you to cast a second enervation might well be the round when you die.
So the fact that you can do 2d4 of negative levels in one round is really worth it: it brings down the opponent quick and, if he survives, you can do something else the round after.
Bocklin
Using only the PHB the enervation spell may be-
Quickened for 2d4 lost levels as an 8th and 4th level spells
Empowered for an average of 3.5 lost levels as a 6th level spell
Maximized for an average of 4 lost levels as a 7th level spell
Emp+Max for an average of 6.5 lost levels as a 9th level spell
Going beyond the core books, split ray would do 2d4 as a 6th level spell, this feat seems overpowered so I will address it on my feat discussion on enworld
Keep in mind that the metamagic feats do not make an enervation the complete equal of energy drain. They are close, if both spells are cast by the same mage then SR is the same and neither offers a save. The metamagiced enervation is defeated by spell immunity, globe of invulnerability, and spell turning as a 4th level spell
I'm gonna throw my hands up and say, "Okay, whatever, you win."
Just kidding, don't take offense. I'm coming to certain conclusions lately, the main one being that no matter how much experience one has had with prior editions, 3.x is not the same game. Not bad, not worse, not better, just not the same.
Basically my instinct is going to be: use it against the players. The ultimate in play balance. Anything they use, just use back, in spades. When they scream it is unfair I will know I have achieved a perfect balance--mwahahahahaha.
And why doesn't haste create extra actions anymore? What's wrong with throwing extra spells instead of swinging a best attack bonus +5 vorpal great axe(with a fighter equipped with cleave, great cleave, power attack, focus, specialization...)
This is gonna become my new favorite TPK spell. Whack the lumbering fighter with poor Touch AC over and over and over. Or, the Cleric. Yes the cleric. Enervation wand with say 8 or 10 charges. From behind a line of tower shield equipped orcs, while invisible. While someone hurls ray of enfeeblement at the fighters.
Actually, the reason why haste doesn't let you cast double spells any more is that it was never meant to do that. In 2nd edition AD&D, it affected one character per level, doubled base speed and gave an extra attack per round. It specifically stated, "Spellcasting and spell effects are not sped up."
It was also far too good for spellcasters. Every wizard would cast haste upon entering combat and double his rate of fire. Quickened spells were basically worthless. The spell also became far better at higher levels, unlike most. While my 20th level fighter will only get a pleasant fifth attack for an overall 20% damage-per-round increase, my 20th level wizard can now cast two 9th level spells per round instead of one, increasing his damage-per-round by 100%.
Actually, the reason why haste doesn't let you cast double spells any more is that it was never meant to do that. In 2nd edition AD&D, it affected one character per level, doubled base speed and gave an extra attack per round. It specifically stated, "Spellcasting and spell effects are not sped up."
It was also far too good for spellcasters. Every wizard would cast haste upon entering combat and double his rate of fire. Quickened spells were basically worthless. The spell also became far better at higher levels, unlike most. While my 20th level fighter will only get a pleasant fifth attack for an overall 20% damage-per-round increase, my 20th level wizard can now cast two 9th level spells per round instead of one, increasing his damage-per-round by 100%.
Your way on target here, JD. It was a nightmare in my v.3.0 campaigns made worse at high levels when PCs started casting haste and time stop as their extra actions. Man, I'm glad that's been fixed!
You're way on target here, JD. It was a nightmare in my v.3.0 campaigns made worse at high levels when PCs started casting haste and time stop as their extra actions. Man, I'm glad that's been fixed!
Of course. Time stop and haste for up to ten rounds at a time! And energy resistances were per-round in 3.0, so each of two players could lay in five cone of cold and five more heightened to sixth level, for a total area-effect of 150d6, twenty Reflex saves for half...
We once had a DM who made the mistake of allowing two 20th level characters an arcane version of the divine item that maximizes all spells. 900 damage to a fifty foot cone, Reflex half, all in one round! There are deities who can't survive that!
If a character has two enervation wands and uses the dual wand weilder feat from Complete Arcane, it would seem as though a character could cause a average penalty of -5 att,-5 saving throws and casting level. Then follow this up with a Fort save spell for a mage or a will save for a fighter and they are almost assured of failing. This can all be accomplished by a 7th level mage. He will burn through wands but that will be easily offset by his aquisition of magic items from the defeated.
Note that a wand of enervation costs out at 21,000 gp. A 7th level mage (wealth by level guidelines 19,000 gp) might be able to buy one, if he has a large city handy, and doesn't want to own any other valuable gear. If he makes it himself, he's got to spend 10,500 gp and 840 XP. If any player wants to put all his resources into a single spell, the DM should have no trouble exploiting his weaknesses. In this case, the simple answer is, lots of undead.
So unless you're running a monty haul, the tactic you mention here only works for a pretty high-level player, and even then it's not by any means foolproof. If you hit me once with that thing and I've got anything to take you or the wand out of action, you can be sure I'll do it--and you won't take a high-level opponent out with the thing in one hit.
So the spell is very potent, but chances are a 7th level mage can only cast it once or twice per day, and then at the expense of other similarly powerful spells like phantasmal killer or Evard's black tentacles or greater invisibility.
As a DM, you've got to be careful about economics--the rest will take care of itself.