I have been hunting for a better method than the turning presented in the PHB. The whole running away system just never appealed to me.I have seen the 1 x d6 of damage a level system in one of the books I own but never tried it. Anyone play tested it or know of a better method of handling cleric turning ability? Even a home brewed system that makes sense would be nice to see.
I have been hunting for a better method than the turning presented in the PHB. The whole running away system just never appealed to me.I have seen the 1 x d6 of damage a level system in one of the books I own but never tried it. Anyone play tested it or know of a better method of handling cleric turning ability? Even a home brewed system that makes sense would be nice to see.
Interesting... I'm a little curious as to your reasoning - though I'll admit that now that I actually think about the scene I have to admit that fleeing zombies and skeletons really is a pretty strange concept.
I have been hunting for a better method than the turning presented in the PHB. The whole running away system just never appealed to me.I have seen the 1 x d6 of damage a level system in one of the books I own but never tried it. Anyone play tested it or know of a better method of handling cleric turning ability? Even a home brewed system that makes sense would be nice to see.Interesting... I'm a little curious as to your reasoning - though I'll admit that now that I actually think about the scene I have to admit that fleeing zombies and skeletons really is a pretty strange concept.
It doesn't follow any literary or folkloric archtype I remember. Dracula fleeing a brandished crucifix... that's par for the course, but skeletons (at least according to all the movies I've ever seen showing brawling skeletons) are ivory terminators destined to fight on until a lucky blow enacts that 'Shin Bone Connected To The Ankle Bone' song backwards.
What is a skeleton afraid of? Death? Seems like an upgrade to me.
Yup,the whole mindless undead running thing is sorta lame as is the "ggggolly he can cause a burst of positive energy,..Run!" Coming from a Lich or Vampire caster that can vaporize most things it is sorta dumb.My problem is changing it and running something that no one has game tested is a royal pain with a group as large as mine.Anyway if someone has a alternative that has worked I am all ears....
Unfortunatly I can't help in this regards. I've been using the official 'fraidy cat zombies ... which will now bother me every time it comes up.
I'd never really thought about it, truthfully, and now that I have, I see the wackiness inherent in a group of fleeing, terrified mohrgs as they scramble over each other in their haste to escape destruction.
Off the top of my head, perhaps you could replace the fleeing with a "stun" or similar effect, leaving turned undead immobile and helpless for a certain number of rounds. This, based on the sudden exposure to divine power implied by a turning attempt. The rules for turn-based destruction, of course, remain the same. This would give a party of PCs plenty of advantage over "turned" undead, and be somewhat more acceptable to those of us who think a squealing-in-terror ghast is just silly.
I don't envision the turned skeletons as feeling emotions such as fear--they are just willfully forced to move away from the cleric.
However, a variant system that stuns undead which are successfully turned sounds pretty interesting.
I once played a grave-touched character that had the ability to use a negative enrgy effect that would harm living things with "images from the grave" and they were so afraid that it would sap the target's strength. It was fun to write (via e-mail) the visions and reactions from the targets.
But he was an undead hunter and while the effect wouldn't harm the undead it would effect various undead differently. All intelligent undead would be filled with memories of their former lives and their descent into undeath. This would act like Ghost Rider's "Vengance Stare" and it would cause them morale penalties and other fear effects.
Ahhhh,this board is a goldmine! Thankyou all! I am gonna try the stun effect and see how it plays. The Ghost Rider ref. was very cool. Brought back memories..lol. Thanks again my brothers and here is a gift . Check it out hopefully it is new to ya.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7521044027821122670
Very funny and a little frightening,....
To weigh in as a devil's avocate. Third edition tried to address this issue without changing the mechanics too much. The fact that a priest of twice the HD of the undead will destroy instead of turn is a big step forward. A level adjusted to 2nd can destroy normal skeletons.
The fear spell uses necromancy to affect people, this is an aspect of the negative material plane. Therefore negative creatures could be affected similarly by a positive energy attack.
My take is the turning chart is not as bad as advertised. Stunning is definitely another option, it may have been considered but was found to be too powerful. With the addition of 20-30 HD undead in the more recent MM books stunning may just be what players need.
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I don't envision the turned skeletons as feeling emotions such as fear--they are just willfully forced to move away from the cleric.
Which is how we play it IMC. Skeletons shamble backward repelled by the possitive energy not fleeing before it in fear. Seems to me that it's all in how you present it to the players as a DM. If you say: "The zombies stagger backward repulsed by the power of your faith." I think that's better than just saying they flee.
To weigh in as a devil's avocate. Third edition tried to address this issue without changing the mechanics too much. The fact that a priest of twice the HD of the undead will destroy instead of turn is a big step forward. A level adjusted to 2nd can destroy normal skeletons.
The fear spell uses necromancy to affect people, this is an aspect of the negative material plane. Therefore negative creatures could be affected similarly by a positive energy attack.
My take is the turning chart is not as bad as advertised. Stunning is definitely another option, it may have been considered but was found to be too powerful. With the addition of 20-30 HD undead in the more recent MM books stunning may just be what players need.
I'd think the stunning would have to last for less time then the running. Running is pretty much fine if the undead can get away but in, probably, most dungeons the undead pretty quickly get blocked into a corner. Since the Clerics companions can bang on them and they do nothing but cower for whatever is left of the 10 rounds I've been finding that I usually rule all undead as destryed once its clear they have been turned. In a round or two they will hit some place with no exit and the PCs will kill them with 8 or so rounds of bashing at them.
I guess my point is that in many cases stunned for 3-5 rounds might actually be an improvement in the life expectancy of the undead ... however probably not really smart undead where the DM will have considered escape routes etc.
I think that part of the problem is that the explanation of turning has become too game rules oriented in 3rd edition. The whole concept of turning undead came from the folklore on vampires retreating when presented with a holy symbol, likely with a bit of lore on exorcisms thrown in.
In other editions, it was pretty clear that turning was a matter of the cleric presenting their holy symbol, and the undead were cowed by the power of the cleric's deity. In other words, unnatural, evil things couldn't stand in the face of a representative of a good god, for example.
In third edition, in order to limit the number of times per day that a cleric can do it, it was described much more mechanically. The cleric can only channel so much positive energy per day, and the positive energy causes fear in negative energy based creatures. I guess part of this goes to support the whole "clerics don't need a god" concept in 3rd edition, but personally, I liked the idea that it was the clerics faith and the undead's fear of the clerics power and his god that drove them back.
Thanks for all the input,real good stuff!This is the system I am going to try this coming weekend...again..lol. My last post vanished or I sent it off to some unknown area of the net.The turn will operate just as it has except for the running. The run will be replaced by a 1 round stun followed by the creature being staggered and exhausted,basically its connection to the Negative plane is reduced. That is a -6 to str. and dex.,1/2 movement and only a single move or standard action.More turns do not stack just restun. I will let ya know how it goes.