I am a bit behind in this adventure path at the moment with my group (we only play about 3 hours a week) and they ran across the insane small water elemental in the whispering cairn last night. I had a question about its vortex ability, as I found something rather weird in the description. The vortex of any elemental apparently only affects creatures at least one size category smaller than it (according to its v3.5 writeup). Most PC's are Small size or larger, at least in my group, and thus would not be affected by the vortex. So this battle turned into a simple trading of blows until the elemental was destroyed. Am I reading the vortex ability incorrectly? Or was this a goof in the adventure?
At least you got to the point of trying to use the vortex.
My elemental tried to touch attack the light source, and MISSED!
Then the barbarian took it out in one shot...
But I know what you mean about the vortex - I also thought it odd that the elemental was too small to do anything with the vortex.
That was another thing I wanted to ask about. The "Quench" ability that it had. Our paladin was carrying the everburning torch from the green lantern, and the elemental tried to put it out with a touch attack as well. It hit, but then when I read both continual flame, and the Quench ability I couldn't decide if an illusory flame would have been put out or not. In the end I said it wouldn't be dispelled as it wasn't actual fire (or even magical fire).
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That was another thing I wanted to ask about. The "Quench" ability that it had. Our paladin was carrying the everburning torch from the green lantern, and the elemental tried to put it out with a touch attack as well. It hit, but then when I read both continual flame, and the Quench ability I couldn't decide if an illusory flame would have been put out or not. In the end I said it wouldn't be dispelled as it wasn't actual fire (or even magical fire).
Okay, you need to reread the special attack, dispel magic and continual flame.
Drench (Ex): The elemental's touch puts out torches, campfires, exposed lanterns, and other open flames of a nonmagical origin if they are large size or smaller. The creture can dispel magical fire it touches as dispel magic (caster level equals elemental's HD).
Continual Flame: Important parts here: Evocation (Light); Effect is Magical, heatless flame.
Dispel Magic: Import parts here: Target Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10)agaiinst the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this spell check is 11 + the spell's caster level.
The everburning torch is not a magic item, it is a torch with contiual flame cast on it. This is a second level wizard spell thus a caster level three effect. The water elemental would need to roll a DC 14 (11 plus caster level)to dispel the continual flame on the torch.
In my game, the torch was dispelled with a roll of 16 for the water elemental.
Okay, you need to reread the special attack, dispel magic and continual flame.Drench (Ex): The elemental's touch puts out torches, campfires, exposed lanterns, and other open flames of a nonmagical origin if they are large size or smaller. The creture can dispel magical fire it touches as dispel magic (caster level equals elemental's HD).
Continual Flame: Important parts here: Evocation (Light); Effect is Magical, heatless flame.
Dispel Magic: Import parts here: Target Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10)agaiinst the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this spell check is 11 + the spell's caster level.
The everburning torch is not a magic item, it is a torch with contiual flame cast on it. This is a second level wizard spell thus a caster level three effect. The water elemental would need to roll a DC 14 (11 plus caster level)to dispel the continual flame on the torch.
In my game, the torch was dispelled with a roll of 16 for the water elemental.
Well, this'll sound extra-picky, but it's just my interpretation: since the Continual Flame's description specifically reads Evocation (Light) and not Evocation (Fire), I wouldn't allow it to be extinguished by the water elemental, because it is not actually magical fire, as is specifically mentioned in the Drench ability; it is merely a magical light effect that takes the superficial shape of a flame. Just my take on things.
Magical, heatless flame.
My party only had two players that night. The water and the elemental kicked their collective butts! Especially after the light went out (yes, they used the lantern, as well).
I pondered long and hard on the water elemental before my group got to it because I was also confused about the Vortex ability. I finally interpreted it this way: The vortex only does damage to creatures smaller than itself. It can still affect larger creatures (i.e. pick up and move them) as normal for the vortex. This made since to me since, when the elemental turns into the vortex, the vortex is pretty good size (as high as the ceiling, ten feet wide at the top, five feet at the bottom (or thereabouts).
I attempted to make good use of this when the elemental picked up the barbarian that had been doing serious damage to it and dropped him off on the other side of the underwater area, then went back to the main fight (only to be killed by a single blow from the wizard's quarterstaff...).
And I repeatedly tried to extinguish the light source the wizard was carrying, but just kept missing with my rolls.
Oh, and just for information's sake, I upsized the elemental to medium since I have 9 players in my group (only 7 of which were there at the time).
Ok. Well what about a sunrod? Its not magical, and according to the short description in the PH it simply “glows” it doesn’t say “burns”. So would this be something an elemental could extinguish? My group and I got into a discussion about this, and decided that since it isn’t an actual flame that the elemental wouldn’t be able to put it out.
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VedicCold, I am not sure about you, but when I read magical, heatless flame I assume that flame mean fire. Just my thoughts I guess. I would not tell you how to run your game, just offering my thoughts to the original poster for what they are worth.
Royster, in this I totally agree. That is how my players went after the water elemental once the everburning torch was dispelled. Sunrods glow, not burn with flames. I liken them to those green glow sticks you see kids with, only give off more light.
VedicCold, I am not sure about you, but when I read magical, heatless flame I assume that flame mean fire. Just my thoughts I guess. I would not tell you how to run your game, just offering my thoughts to the original poster for what they are worth.
Well, first off, let me say that I wasn't trying to undermine your interpretation; it was perfectly logical, and well-explained. I was simply offering my own, as an illustration of the "other side of the fence," if you will.
As for my interpretation (and that's all it is, just my point of view as a DM), it really hinges on one thing - the spell descriptor of Continual Flame. By my way of thinking, and by the way that I utilize the mechanics of the game, a spell that creates a magical fire will have the (Fire) energy descriptor. Continual Flame has (Light) and not (Fire). So, for me, that means it's not truly a magical flame anymore than a Faerie Fire or Dancing Lights spell, and is not subject to a water elemental's Drench ability. Again, and as always... just my take on things.
Ah, lots of good feedback while I was gone! Yeah, I went the same route as VedicCold, I ruled it was more of an illusion like a Light spell than an actual flame. Hence, no dispelling. As for the water elemental, that is a good point about its size in regards to the damage and other vortex abilities. Its kind of a moot point now since my group killed the thing already, but it makes sense.
The underwater room was a little confusing as well. From the description it said the water came halfway up the stairs, which are 10 feet according to the scale grid. Hence the water in my session was only 5 feet deep. So all my players were neck deep in water and suffered penalties as if they were fighting underwater. They didn't need to worry about drowning unless knocked unconcious, which one of them was :) Kinda reminded me of the previews from that "Cave" movie. Creepy but fun.
I couldn't understand why it would try to quench the light source when it doesn't work against magical light sources (or a Sunrod) and a none magical light source wouldn't work since the party is likely to be facing the creature while underwater, in the flooded rooms.
Our DM had the whole room flooded with no air gap, although having the water 5ft deep wouldn't haved helped the dwarf and halfing in our party. It was really unclear as to how deep the water was looking at the adventure after the fact. The only clue that it might not be full height is the fact the elemental tries to quench the light source.
As for a sunrod it could just attempt to destroy the sunrod as it only has hardness 5 and 2 hit points rather then quench. I just thought it was useless and had it attack the party.
I wasn't sure about the depth of the water either. I ended up making it roughly 8 feet deep to make it a challenge to get around. The water elemental definitely wasn't - one good smack from the party fighter and it was gone. The ghoul ended up pretty much the same way, though it at least got off its paralyzing attack on one party member.
I wasn't sure about the depth of the water either. I ended up making it roughly 8 feet deep to make it a challenge to get around.
We just finished this encounter 2 nights ago and I went with a depth of 6 feet - trouble enough for my party since it consists entirely of gnomes, dwarves and a halfling. From the description of the ghoul room, I felt it was intended that all 3 rooms (plus the toilet) would be completely submerged.
Even though neither the elemental nor the ghoul posed that much of a problem for them, the logistics of running the combat in and under the water plus exploring the rooms when none of the players had taken any ranks in swimming caused quite a bit of player tension.
The encounter served its purpose, however, as everyone who leveled up later that evening took swimming ranks. =)
I ran my group through this set of encounters as written - and they managed to survive, with only one character going into negative hit points. i'm impressed.
the water elemental attacks them on the stairs, so the first thing they do is beat a hasty retreat to the air-filled areas. they then proceed to pound the elemental down fairly quickly.
then, the ghoul manages to paralyze 1/3 of the party - but they were smart, and had tied everyone together - so they drag all the way back up to the air (the ghoul following and trying to munch on the party monk), and pound the ghoul down.
they did pretty good, imo.
Looks like you folks picked up the same bloopers in the module that I did - I too made the water 8 feet deep (assuming the stairs are only 10 feet high), and made the elemental medium to at least give it a chance.
The emelental still couldn't use its Vortex, as all the PC's are medium. And only one PC ever went into the water. He has darkvision, so it was a few quick investigations with many spot rolls before the elemental spotted him, then when it attacked him he quickly made his way back to the stairs, where he and the rest of the aprty made short work of the elemental (I made it chase him, as otherwise the PC's would have picked it off, or just ignored the whole piece anyway).
Similarly, the ghast (beefed up the ghoul) lasted only a couple of rounds, as they lead it onto the top of the stairs too. My group was way too smart to take on any monsters underwater, which turned out to be very wise (paralysed under water, all by yourself - a good way to die).